Rav4

[BigCityAccountant]

the mowed grass... I think it might be there from when they towed it down to the crusher.... there was a lot of overgrown grass there, I can see it getting caught up. I'm not sure about the lanyard/key... I will have to go look now LOL

No, the mowed grass---its hard to see--you have to look real hard--but it was in the pictures that Pam took--before the car was moved.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

I don't think the lighting is the greatest, but not sure which looks "dirtier", they look about the same or actually the key part looks darker to me.


ETA: the lanyard was found in the middle console of the RAV4

Exactly!!! Imagine the key part wrapped in the other part....see by the bracket where the lettering is..how dirty it is...but the smaller part isn't that dirty...

The key folded back would be about the same size as the small part before the bracket--now attach it to the longer part...and keep folding it under. Looks like creases in the long part would be the same length (what is that 2" or so for the small part)...

 

[MysticJynx]

Ok so I was listening to that Colborn Call where he calls in the plates. Well I don't agree with everyone who thinks it says HERE IS THE CAR or something to to that effect. I do not hear it. So i took The sound and amplified it. I still hear the NNNNNNNN sound. Ninety, nine, Ninety, Nine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21wK-WvBdOY&feature=youtu.be

 

[Madeleine74]

I was surprised when I saw how close that SUV was to the other vehicles around it. Talk about sandwiched in like sardines.

Why were other things that might have ID'd that vehicle as TH's not in her SUV? e.g. paperwork from her various Auto Trader visits; her vehicle was not tidy. Who would remove stuff like that and why? Why would someone bother removing her PalmPilot? They didn't keep it or try to sell it, they burned it. Why her camera? It wasn't a cheap camera. Not stolen, but burned. Ditto her cell phone. Why were those items, which could only help but identify and connect TH & her vehicle removed from the SUV?

Wouldn't a planter want someone to be able to find and identify TH's SUV? Isn't that the whole point of planting it in the first place? Then why make it harder?

 

[Sustained]

I was surprised when I saw how close that SUV was to the other vehicles around it. Talk about sandwiched in like sardines.

Why were other things that might have ID'd that vehicle as TH's not in her SUV? e.g. paperwork from her various Auto Trader visits; her vehicle was not tidy. Who would remove stuff like that and why? Why would someone bother removing her PalmPilot? They didn't keep it or try to sell it, they burned it. Why her camera? It wasn't a cheap camera. Not stolen, but burned. Ditto her cell phone. Why were those items, which could only help but identify and connect TH & her vehicle removed from the SUV?

Wouldn't a planter want someone to be able to find and identify TH's SUV? Isn't that the whole point of planting it in the first place? Then why make it harder?

Finding a blue/green RAV4 on the Avery lot with the VIN number intact would be plenty to identify the vehicle as TH's. No license plates or anything else needed.

 

[Sustained]

I was surprised when I saw how close that SUV was to the other vehicles around it. Talk about sandwiched in like sardines.

Why were other things that might have ID'd that vehicle as TH's not in her SUV? e.g. paperwork from her various Auto Trader visits; her vehicle was not tidy. Who would remove stuff like that and why? Why would someone bother removing her PalmPilot? They didn't keep it or try to sell it, they burned it. Why her camera? It wasn't a cheap camera. Not stolen, but burned. Ditto her cell phone. Why were those items, which could only help but identify and connect TH & her vehicle removed from the SUV?

Wouldn't a planter want someone to be able to find and identify TH's SUV? Isn't that the whole point of planting it in the first place? Then why make it harder?

Close but not bumper to bumper ...

 

[Madeleine74]

But someone took the time to remove them as well as the stuff from inside her vehicle. Someone took the time and effort to put branches, and wood posts and a car hood on and around that vehicle. Someone took the time to take the removed license plate and put it inside another vehicle on the opposite side of the property and lock the vehicle. IF someone planted that SUV, they took additional time they didn't need to take at all, and took additional risk they didn't need to take, and they could well have been spotted by someone who did belong on the property. Those actions are not logical by someone who wanted the SUV to be easily found.

 

[Sustained]

But someone took the time to remove them as well as the stuff from inside her vehicle. Someone took the time and effort to put branches, and wood posts and a car hood on and around that vehicle. Someone took the time to take the removed license plate and put it inside another vehicle on the opposite side of the property and lock the vehicle. IF someone planted that SUV, they took additional time they didn't need to take at all, and took additional risk they didn't need to take, and they could well have been spotted by someone who did belong on the property. Those actions are not logical by someone who wanted the SUV to be easily found.

Removing license plate screws takes about a minute maybe two and no one knows when the plate was removed. I have not seen any evidence of what was taken out of TH's vehicle. How do we know what was actually in it at the time ?

If SA is guilty, I can't understand why he didn't just ditch the license plates somewhere instead of putting them in a car by the entrance ?

 

[Justiceseeker35]

Removing license plate screws takes about a minute maybe two and no one knows when the plate was removed. I have not seen any evidence of what was taken out of TH's vehicle. How do we know what was actually in it at the time ?

If SA is guilty, I can't understand why he didn't just ditch the license plates somewhere instead of putting them in a car by the entrance ?

So I've been thinking about this too this morning. About the SUV. Is it possible that the SUV was covered that way only because they were worried about it being spotted in the fly over by the police. Even now people are having a hard time spotting it in back footage because of the camouflage over it and today we have hindsight of where it actually was. So it's camo'd well from the air. Obviously, given how peculiar it looked for a person who supposedly had never been to Avery Auto Salvage before and spotted it rather quickly then isn't it reasonable to say that it was not supposed to be camo'd from land? Now I don't believe for a second that EA or CA or possibly SA, knew about that car being there but I think they would recognize it didn't belong there if it sat there all week. Each day brings another possibility it would be discovered by someone on the ground in that salvage yard. So I theorize the car was positioned like that so it would be discovered. So the person who placed the car there like that would have to have knowledge of the fly overs and knowledge of the search parties.

 

[Madeleine74]

My common sense tells me that someone who takes extra time to try to obscure a vehicle and remove a license plate is not intending for that vehicle to be easily spotted. Someone who removes a license plate and puts said license plate all the way across the property and inside another vehicle is not intending for that license plate to be easily found.

 

[Sustained]

My common sense tells me that someone who takes extra time to try to obscure a vehicle and remove a license plate is not intending for that vehicle to be easily spotted. Someone who removes a license plate and puts said license plate all the way across the property and inside another vehicle is not intending for that license plate to be easily found.

Understand your POV but why leave the license plate on the property at all ? Or the RAV4 itself knowing the LE would soon find out you were the last person seen with TH ?

Why not get underneath one of the junkers and hide it the license plate out of sight ?

 

[Justiceseeker35]

Understand your POV but why leave the license plate on the property at all ? Or the RAV4 itself knowing the LE would soon find out you were the last person seen with TH ?

Why not get underneath one of the junkers and hide it the license plate out of sight ?

I'm thinking if the person framing SA wanted the car to be found by searchers only and not by police in fly overs then in the instance a person from the Avery yard (employee/resident) found it was there before searchers they would have done enough to the suv to cause confusion
1. not understand whose it was- no plates
2. not understand why it was there- covered with branches obscured

 

[Madeleine74]

Understand your POV but why leave the license plate on the property at all ? Or the RAV4 itself knowing the LE would soon find out you were the last person seen with TH ?

Why not get underneath one of the junkers and hide it the license plate out of sight ?

Why's cannot be known and unless the person tells their thought process or told someone else who can and will repeat it, it can't be known.

How any of us might have figured out where to hide or get rid of evidence that would ensure it not be found or how we might have worked through the variables better than the killer is irrelevant. We do not know what SA was thinking and no one else does either. Lots of "he would have known better than to do x, y, z therefore he couldn't have done it" have been proposed, but that's a logical fallacy based on someone believing they know the inner thoughts of SA or anyone in the case.

 

[Madeleine74]

Spending *additional time* on someone's property where you do not belong, in order to do more than you need to do, and the actions taken help obscure the very evidence alleged planted, makes no sense. It doesn't help make the person any guiltier and it introduces far more risk to the equation. Risk = getting caught doing this very illegal thing. More time spent by someone who does not belong there = more risk.

The implication is the opposite -- the person taking extra time to obscure an item won't be caught because they belong on that property and their presence there would not raise any red flags and them being around vehicles is normal and part of what they do.

 

[Sustained]

I'm thinking if the person framing SA wanted the car to be found by searchers only and not by police in fly overs then in the instance a person from the Avery yard (employee/resident) found it was there before searchers they would have done enough to the suv to cause confusion
1. not understand whose it was- no plates
2. not understand why it was there- covered with branches obscured

Assuming the RAV4 was in the spot in which it was found from 10/31 pm to 11/5 am, I find it extremely hard to believe that none of the Averys and possibly other salvage yard workers spotted the car in 4 1/2 days. There was a truck with a bright green cab two car lengths from the RAV4.
My eyes would have been attracted to that and then to the only vehicle in the back row covered by branches, wood & a car hood. Earl went shooting back that way a lot with Bob Fabian and Chuck was in charge of the crusher. And no one noticed it ?

 

[missy1974]

Assuming the RAV4 was in the spot in which it was found from 10/31 pm to 11/5 am, I find it extremely hard to believe that none of the Averys and possibly other salvage yard workers spotted the car in 4 1/2 days. There was a truck with a bright green cab two car lengths from the RAV4.
My eyes would have been attracted to that and then to the only vehicle in the back row covered by branches, wood & a car hood. Earl went shooting back that way a lot with Bob Fabian and Chuck was in charge of the crusher. And no one noticed it ?

This. And if you are to believe Pam and all the officers that they could easily see it from the crusher, because ya know, they were all keeping an eye on it to make sure no one entered that vehicle in the hours that it sat there. And one of the officers (can't remember which one now) even testified that it stood out! I think if they were down there at all that week they would have noticed it.

 

[Sustained]

This. And if you are to believe Pam and all the officers that they could easily see it from the crusher, because ya know, they were all keeping an eye on it to make sure no one entered that vehicle in the hours that it sat there. And one of the officers (can't remember which one now) even testified that it stood out! I think if they were down there at all that week they would have noticed it.

Right and just coincidence that RH gave Sturm the camera and Sturm just happened to start looking in the row of cars right next to the crusher. RH also testified that he had never met Sturm before that day. Sturm was TH's cousin and RH had dated TH for 5 years so. Really ? In a relatively small area like Manitowoc County ?

Gimme a break ...

 

[TheDuchess]

Can someone explain to me the purpose of someone driving that RAV4 and then parking it so close to the car next to it as to make it impossible to get out without climbing over and getting out the passenger side? Why would a driver make that difficult for themselves? It certainly seems as though this was towed there. I can't imagine what the motivation would be for say SA to park it like that.

 

[missy1974]

Can someone explain to me the purpose of someone driving that RAV4 and then parking it so close to the car next to it as to make it impossible to get out without climbing over and getting out the passenger side? Why would a driver make that difficult for themselves? It certainly seems as though this was towed there. I can't imagine what the motivation would be for say SA to park it like that.

That's one of the reasons I think it was towed there. And IMO if officers came across the vehicle in the yard, without a warrant.... and happened to have access to a vial of blood.... they could only access the vehicle from the passenger doors..... note where the blood is, all could be planted from passenger doors. Also interesting to note is.... the interior drivers side door did have TH's DNA. If you were the killer/driver.... why wouldn't you wipe that down? Unless you knew you never touched it, because you were never sitting in the drivers seat with the door closed and didn't need too. Or I guess they were wearing gloves and were confident?
I will have to go back to the reports, but I wonder ... did they swab the gear shift?

ETA: I just checked the reports..... I don't see that the gear shift was swabbed. Weird... whether the RAV4 was towed or driven.... someone would have had to put it into Neutral or Drive, etc.

 

[Madeleine74]

Can someone explain to me the purpose of someone driving that RAV4 and then parking it so close to the car next to it as to make it impossible to get out without climbing over and getting out the passenger side? Why would a driver make that difficult for themselves? It certainly seems as though this was towed there. I can't imagine what the motivation would be for say SA to park it like that.

Rav4 there first and then other car parked up next to it?