Raven Says . . .

[juliagoulia]

Jennifred could probably answer this best. From what I've read, home teachers are 2 or 3 people from the church that visit with families to check on them. I do not think they are paid. I'm not sure raven actually was a home teacher but alluded to the fact that he was preparing a lesson to be a home teacher in a caption under a picture of him and Kaiden. Jennifred?

All men in the ward are home teachers. They are paired up--groups of two--and are responsible for visiting a few families in their congregation. I it is definitely an unpaid responsibility.

 

[ewwwinteresting]

Does anyone know how long it takes to bleed out from a neck wound? I keep wondering about the time that it takes to bleed out and the fact that by the second wound she was already dead. 2-3 min. in a struggle is not a long time, but yet it is a long time. What could have been occuring in that 2-3 min. between the wounds?

From the autopsy report: "...potential to be rapidly fatal." I'm guessing less than a minute.

 

[ewwwinteresting]

All men in the ward are home teachers. They are paired up--groups of two--and are responsible for visiting a few families in their congregation. I it is definitely an unpaid responsibility.

Thank you julia!

 

[juliagoulia]

Do hometeachers give "homework"? Is there any chance that Raven was doing homework of sorts before his hometeachers arrived?

No. Everyone in the ward/congregation is given the same lesson for each month. For example, here is this month's home teaching lesson:
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,2043-1-3172-1,00.html

At the bottom of the message is a list of "ideas for home teachers" so that individuals can personalize the same message.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

:laugh:
Alright, it looks like I'm in the minority here.....anyone else having a hard time fathoming all of this? If so, come help me please!

I'm not quite understanding what your question is, EI. Are you asking why Raven would have put himself at the scene at the TOD if he was the perp? I think that either Raven messed up, not realizing that they could narrow TOD so closely. Or perhaps he panicked after actually doing it, and called 911 right away so that they could try to save Janet but also doesn't want to be held responsible for the attack. Or maybe he figures that if he places himself at the scene at the TOD, we'd all be saying "Wait a minute ... he CAN'T be the perp after all because who on Earth would place themselves there at the TOD? So maybe we should rethink this." Just like we'd think it couldn't be him because he thought she had been shot when she had really been stabbed. Just like pregnancy couldn't be the motive because he didn't even realize she was pregnant - he thought she was having bad cramps.

I'm more confident than ever that this case is gaining momentum, that the pieces are all falling into place, and that once LE makes a move, they will have more than enough information for us all to see exactly how this all fits together.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

No. Everyone in the ward/congregation is given the same lesson for each month. For example, here is this month's home teaching lesson:
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,2043-1-3172-1,00.html

At the bottom of the message is a list of "ideas for home teachers" so that individuals can personalize the same message.

Thanks, julia. So he was preparing for his visit to someone else's home. So it's still possible that the hometeachers showed up unexpectedly (or on very short notice) that evening.

 

[ewwwinteresting]

Except that most of the things that you've mentioned above are circumstantial. If they don't have cold, hard facts to back them up at trial, they could end up seeing a guilty man acquitted even with a thousand pieces of circumstantial evidence. Juries aren't easy, and they are full of heart. They don't want to convict unless they are certain. In these days of CSI, Court TV, etc., juries are beginning to want forensics to match the theories. That isn't always available. In any situation, any and all evidence, especially hard evidence better be lined up as clearly as possible before even thinking about approaching the DA.

What, in your opinion, are forensics that they can get after all this time? DNA on the body, in the car, around the house isn't going to mean much, he lived there. I guess, under Janet's nails would be significant and then, of course, the test results from the swabbings, etc. Dang, back to waiting for test results!

Couldn't they arrest raven on all they have now, and work up the premeditated or hard facts while he is in jail? It does take a year or so before trial. Wouldn't more people come forward with information if he was arrested? Maybe people that LE doesn't even know about?

 

[ewwwinteresting]

I'm not quite understanding what your question is, EI. Are you asking why Raven would have put himself at the scene at the TOD if he was the perp? I think that either Raven messed up, not realizing that they could narrow TOD so closely. Or perhaps he panicked after actually doing it, and called 911 right away so that they could try to save Janet but also doesn't want to be held responsible for the attack. Or maybe he figures that if he places himself at the scene at the TOD, we'd all be saying "Wait a minute ... he CAN'T be the perp after all because who on Earth would place themselves there at the TOD? So maybe we should rethink this." Just like we'd think it couldn't be him because he thought she had been shot when she had really been stabbed. Just like pregnancy couldn't be the motive because he didn't even realize she was pregnant - he thought she was having bad cramps.

I'm more confident than ever that this case is gaining momentum, that the pieces are all falling into place, and that once LE makes a move, they will have more than enough information for us all to see exactly how this all fits together.

Uhhh yah! Ok, I'm not totally turning around here, just questioning the fact that supposedly raven is this smart thinker, planner guy and he does something as stupid as telling LE he was home at the TOD. I mean :doh: ! He doesn't even come up with a story that he heard someone running out the back door when he came in, somehow placing someone there except him and Kaiden!

 

[SouthEastSleuth]

No. Everyone in the ward/congregation is given the same lesson for each month. For example, here is this month's home teaching lesson:
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,2043-1-3172-1,00.html

At the bottom of the message is a list of "ideas for home teachers" so that individuals can personalize the same message.

This is interesting... so I take it to mean that the hometeaching lesson each month is standardized, in that each ward, etc., is working on the same lesson each month? That said, I would be curious to know about the home teaching lesson for April, just informationally if nothing else. Remember, to our knowledge, the last people, other than the murderer, to see Janet alive would have been the hometeachers. That said, I think it would be interesting to know what topic(s) was(were) being discussed that evening. I looked on the LDS site to see if there was an archive, but didn't see it noted. Any ideas anyone?

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

What, in your opinion, are forensics that they can get after all this time? DNA on the body, in the car, around the house isn't going to mean much, he lived there. I guess, under Janet's nails would be significant and then, of course, the test results from the swabbings, etc. Dang, back to waiting for test results!

Couldn't they arrest raven on all they have now, and work up the premeditated or hard facts while he is in jail? It does take a year or so before trial. Wouldn't more people come forward with information if he was arrested? Maybe people that LE doesn't even know about?

It could be that they are waiting for blood spatter analysis on Raven's clothing for all I know. Yep, those danged test results!

In America, we have a right to a speedy trial. If we refuse to waive that right, then our case must be tried within a very short period of time, (within 60 days in some states, 90 days in others, maybe a different period of time in yet others). No LE agency or DA's office in this nation would be willing to arrest a perp prior to building the case IMO. There are so many legalities and so much procedure that must be adhered to post-arrest and pre-trial that the time between arrest and trial cannot be used for fact-finding or evidence gathering. That should be done prior to charging someone. If Raven were to be arrested, and demand a speedy trial, the DA could be forced to present his case to a jury within two months. (Anyone know the length of time in NC?)

 

[ewwwinteresting]

It could be that they are waiting for blood spatter analysis on Raven's clothing for all I know. Yep, those danged test results!

In America, we have a right to a speedy trial. If we refuse to waive that right, then our case must be tried within a very short period of time, (within 60 days in some states, 90 days in others, maybe a different period of time in yet others). No LE agency or DA's office in this nation would be willing to arrest a perp prior to building the case IMO. There are so many legalities and so much procedure that must be adhered to post-arrest and pre-trial that the time between arrest and trial cannot be used for fact-finding or evidence gathering. That should be done prior to charging someone. If Raven were to be arrested, and demand a speedy trial, the DA could be forced to present his case to a jury within two months. (Anyone know the length of time in NC?)

Well that sucks.....have to wait 9 months for test results, but must put on a trial within 2 months. Thinkin' something is wrong with this system!

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Uhhh yah! Ok, I'm not totally turning around here, just questioning the fact that supposedly raven is this smart thinker, planner guy and he does something as stupid as telling LE he was home at the TOD. I mean :doh: ! He doesn't even come up with a story that he heard someone running out the back door when he came in, somehow placing someone there except him and Kaiden!

Raven is a smart-thinking planner when he's got time to plan. When he doesn't have a plan or the plan doesn't go off how he expected, that's when the bad decisions and impulsiveness come in.

Can I say for sure that Raven did this? No. Can I say for sure why he places himself at the scene at the TOD if he IS the perp? No. But at this point, based on the latest information, I believe that Raven did do this, and the reason that I think that he placed himself at the scene at the TOD is that he miscalculated - had no idea that they could pin down the time. I think his plan did NOT go off according to his calculations, and since the wheels were already turning so quickly in his mind, he couldn't see not going through with it. He HAD to go through with it, and so he made some adjustments. Those adjustments are where the mistake(s) was(were) made. JMO.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Well that sucks.....have to wait 9 months for test results, but must put on a trial within 2 months. Thinkin' something is wrong with this system!

It really seems so. I guess the speedy trial rule is good in a way or we might have situations like the one we see in Aruba with the Natalee Holloway case. People sitting in jail for months without even being charged.

 

[ewwwinteresting]

This is interesting... so I take it to mean that the hometeaching lesson each month is standardized, in that each ward, etc., is working on the same lesson each month? That said, I would be curious to know about the home teaching lesson for April, just informationally if nothing else. Remember, to our knowledge, the last people, other than the murderer, to see Janet alive would have been the hometeachers. That said, I think it would be interesting to know what topic(s) was(were) being discussed that evening. I looked on the LDS site to see if there was an archive, but didn't see it noted. Any ideas anyone?

I found this on the website ldg.org. Sorry, got sidetracked reading about what the mormon church is doing for the Katrina victims.

Not sure which is the home teaching lesson but did notice there were articles on marriage!

Ensign
April 2005

Volume 35, Number 4

Ensign, Apr. 2005,
[illustration] Front cover: Christ in the Land Bountiful, by Simon Dewey

[illustration] Back cover: Christ Appearing in the Western Hemisphere, by Arnold Friberg

[illustration] Inside front cover: How Beautiful Thy Temple, Lord, by Leon Parson. How beautiful thy temples, Lord! Each one a sacred shrine, Where faithful Saints, with one accord, Engage in work divine. How beautiful some aid to give To dear ones we call dead, But who indeed as spirits live; They’ve only gone ahead (Hymns, no. 288). (Idaho Falls Idaho Temple; painting may not be copied.)

[illustration] Inside back cover: Behold the Man, by Simon Dewey. Courtesy of Altus Fine Art, American Fork, Utah; may not be copied

Contents

First Presidency Message: The Symbol of Our Faith
President Gordon B. Hinckley

And in Thy Presence Rest
Scott Swain

The Light of Christ
President Boyd K. Packer

Being Thankworthy
Geri Christensen

Strengthening the Family: Multiply and Replenish the Earth

Three Principles of Marriage
Matthew O. Richardson

The Wedding Reception
Martha P. Taysom

A Balanced Life
Brent L. Top

The Effective Elders Quorum
Elder Dale E. Miller

Thou Art the Man
Mark Staker

Celebrate!
LaRene Porter Gaunt

Integrity and Values: A Discussion with Elder Robert D. Hales

Believing Is Seeing
Don L. Searle

Gospel Classics: Once or Twice in a Thousand Years
Elder Bruce R. McConkie

Visiting Teaching Message: Rejoice in the Restoration of the Priesthood and Priesthood Keys

The Winds That Blow
Jenna L. Staley

Messages from the Doctrine and Covenants: The Three Degrees of Glory
Elder B. Renato Maldonado

Messages from the Doctrine and Covenants: The Holy Sabbath
Elder C. Elmer Black

Latter-day Saint Voices

Random Sampler

News of the Church

Making the Most of This Issue

 

[SouthEastSleuth]

I found this on the website ldg.org. Sorry, got sidetracked reading about what the mormon church is doing for the Katrina victims.

Contents

First Presidency Message: The Symbol of Our Faith
President Gordon B. Hinckley

If I'm reading this correctly, the one above is the hometeaching lesson for April 2005.


An excerpt:
"And so, because our Savior lives, we do not use the symbol of His death as the symbol of our faith. But what shall we use? No sign, no work of art, no representation of form is adequate to express the glory and the wonder of the Living Christ. He told us what that symbol should be when He said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15).




As His followers, we cannot do a mean or shoddy or ungracious thing without tarnishing His image. Nor can we do a good and gracious and generous act without burnishing more brightly the symbol of Him whose name we have taken upon ourselves. And so our lives must become a meaningful expression, the symbol of our declaration of our testimony of the Living Christ, the Eternal Son of the Living God.




It is that simple, my brethren and sisters, and that profound and we’d better never forget it."




So, these are words that presumably Raven and Janet heard and discussed on the evening of April 26th. It boggles my mind. How can you sit in your house, with your wife, discussing your religion with members of your church congregation - discussing making your life itself a symbol of Christ and your beliefs, etc. - referencing the Ten Commandmants - - - - And presumably this was a DISCUSSION, not a lecture.... and then within HOURS, literally, MURDER YOUR WIFE?? I'm thinking that God has a special corner of hell reserved for a person like that, but, that's JMO, of course......

 

[LTUlegal]

Does anyone know how long it takes to bleed out from a neck wound? I keep wondering about the time that it takes to bleed out and the fact that by the second wound she was already dead. 2-3 min. in a struggle is not a long time, but yet it is a long time. What could have been occuring in that 2-3 min. between the wounds?

Go ahead & slap me if I'm wrong, because it's highly possible. But on the ME report, it states that the wounds were not neccessarily in order of how it happened. Could the 2nd (reported) wound be the first attempt, and because of the defensive wound, it didn't go deep enough, so there was another attempt and that's the one that killed her?

 

[ewwwinteresting]

Go ahead & slap me if I'm wrong, because it's highly possible. But on the ME report, it states that the wounds were not neccessarily in order of how it happened. Could the 2nd (reported) wound be the first attempt, and because of the defensive wound, it didn't go deep enough, so there was another attempt and that's the one that killed her?

:slap:....LOL, actually, don't know if you are wrong or not.

I thought I remember reading in Steve's blog, that the 2nd reported wound was very forceful and deep. I'll have to go reread to know for sure.

 

[juliagoulia]

So, these are words that presumably Raven and Janet heard and discussed on the evening of April 26th. It boggles my mind. How can you sit in your house, with your wife, discussing your religion with members of your church congregation - discussing making your life itself a symbol of Christ and your beliefs, etc. - referencing the Ten Commandmants - - - - And presumably this was a DISCUSSION, not a lecture.... and then within HOURS, literally, MURDER YOUR WIFE?? I'm thinking that God has a special corner of hell reserved for a person like that, but, that's JMO, of course......

Especially since this was a message delivered by our Prophet--not just any old church leader!

I'm not sure any of this really meant anything to Raven, though. The more I learn about him, the more I think his involvement with the church was just for show. I'm sure he conveniently believed these things when he needed to--to look good for other church leaders, his wife or to a bishop in charge of financial assistance.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

But on the ME report, it states that the wounds were not neccessarily in order of how it happened. Could the 2nd (reported) wound be the first attempt, and because of the defensive wound, it didn't go deep enough, so there was another attempt and that's the one that killed her?

You know what I noticed about the defensive wound? That it isn't on the palm of the hand - it appears to be on the top of the finger by the nail, and wraps slightly around the side of the finger. Are defensive wounds normally to the palm side of the hand? If this wound is because of a struggle, I would expect to see more little cuts here and there but that's the only one. I don't know if that wound to the top of her finger indicates anything but this fact jumped out at me for some reason.

 

[juliagoulia]

You know what I noticed about the defensive wound? That it isn't on the palm of the hand - it appears to be on the top of the finger by the nail, and wraps slightly around the side of the finger. Are defensive wounds normally to the palm side of the hand? If this wound is because of a struggle, I would expect to see more little cuts here and there but that's the only one. I don't know if that wound to the top of her finger indicates anything but this fact jumped out at me for some reason.

I noticed that, as well JG. I found this website (WARNING the pictures are very graphic) that talks about defensive wounds and how they occur. From the photo on the site it looks like the palm is the most vulnerable...but any slight movement from the left to right could get the top of the finger. Especially if the knife was very sharp.

I don't recall if the autopsy said that the wounds were made by a two-edged or single-edge blade. A single-edge would most likely mean a kitchen or household item...but a two-edged would be something more sporty or...collectible.

Chilling...