Raymond Clark III

[Sloof]

Her family is traditional Vietnamese and VERY CATHOLIC...

Annie's parents not only divorced but she was estranged from them and her and her brother were moved from San Jose to Placerville to be raised by her "aunt and uncle" (kind of a vague, legal guardian relationship not suggesting blood relations).

I don't think her family is as traditional and Catholic as you're projecting here.

 

[Chanler]

Except for a few people, and nameless sources, who suggest Ray Clark was a 'control freak', the general consensus seems to be he was a pretty nice guy. Maybe not the type to go out of his way or anything, but he was in his position for about 3 years. How many people in the previous years had messy cages? Did he attempt to murder them? We're not a couple of people who were literally at each other's throats, and they weren't a couple of crackheads or street thugs who looked at each other the wrong way. They were two students, scientists, all looking to do their work, and then go home to their personal lives. In other words, there would be no reason for them to have crossed swords on that morning.

I think we'll just have to be patient for the trial to find out what the strong evidence is that ties him to the crime. The little bits and pieces they've been sneaking out to the media are still circumstantial in nature.

Hi, Schlock Holmes. to call Clark a scientist or a student is stretching the term. He was a high school graduate with a low-level, low-paying job, and no real authority; Annie Le was a Yale graduate researcher on a significant project. To say that they had "no reason for them to have crossed swords on that morning" presumes access to their moods and thoughts and the immediate situation.

If Clark was "a pretty nice guy," it's difficult to explain why he had a police report written about him as reported in a New Haven newspaper and on CBS; and a former high school girlfriend who described him as a completely controlling boyfriend. And some of those "few people" are much more specific about his relationships with women than very general quotes on Larry King about memories from male friends who showed almost zero awareness of his workplace or woman problems.

You're right to say that we should wait until the trial to see how things unfold, but since very few of us have the remotest chance on being on the jury, we can form tentative conclusions. From several of your posts, we can deduce that you already have.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/23/crimesider/entry5332551.shtml

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/17/crimesider/entry5317567.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/24/news/new_haven/a3-lemoreevidence.txt

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/20/news/new_haven/doc4ab59381ee3b1069607649.txt

 

[Shlock Homes]

Regarding Clark's job, as far as I know, you can't just submit a resume out of high school and be hired on as a lab technician. You have to have been a student at Yale to get a position like that. It's not a glorious job, but it requires a lot of technical responsibility. I haven't been able to find any media description of Ray Clark's qualifications. They seem to make light of his duties by only stating he cleaned cages and floors, like a custodian. It's more than that.

 

[Skigirl]

Regarding Clark's job, as far as I know, you can't just submit a resume out of high school and be hired on as a lab technician. You have to have been a student at Yale to get a position like that. It's not a glorious job, but it requires a lot of technical responsibility. I haven't been able to find any media description of Ray Clark's qualifications. They seem to make light of his duties by only stating he cleaned cages and floors, like a custodian. It's more than that.

You do not have to have been a student at Yale to have a job as a lab tech. They do an important job, yes, but they require no more formal education than a high school degree. There have been many posts on this if you look around; someone even dug up Yale's posted requirements for the job. No need to have been a Yale student, or have a college degree.

 

[Harmony 2]

Regarding Clark's job, as far as I know, you can't just submit a resume out of high school and be hired on as a lab technician. You have to have been a student at Yale to get a position like that. It's not a glorious job, but it requires a lot of technical responsibility. I haven't been able to find any media description of Ray Clark's qualifications. They seem to make light of his duties by only stating he cleaned cages and floors, like a custodian. It's more than that.

Responding to bolded:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/18/nyregion/18yale.html?_r=1&hp<br>

The jobs are competitive, and many get through the door with the help of a friend or relative. Mr. Clark&#8217;s brother-in-law and sister also work as animal technicians, and she recommended Mr. Clark for a position in the washing center in 2004, the year he graduated from high school in nearby Branford.

The university asks that technicians have familiarity with animals. Mr. Clark confided in one co-worker that he had listed on his résumé that he had worked on a farm, even though he had not, the co-worker said.

 

[Shlock Homes]

Wow, I'm surprised that a school like Yale would hire someone just out of high school for that kind of job. It doesn't sound like rocket science, but it does require a lot of skill to keep things in check. If he's responsible for storing chemicals, for example, he has to remember which ones are corrosive, which ones are poisonous, etc... Unless he had lesser duties than that.
I should have figured he wasn't a student there. He's using a public defender, so he doesn't have any money to afford a private attorney. We haven't heard anything about his parents. Did he grow up with them, or did he and his sister live with relatives?

 

[Shlock Homes]

You do not have to have been a student at Yale to have a job as a lab tech. They do an important job, yes, but they require no more formal education than a high school degree. There have been many posts on this if you look around; someone even dug up Yale's posted requirements for the job. No need to have been a Yale student, or have a college degree.

I find that pretty strange. I guess you're seen as someone like an orderly at a hospital? Or is this a cost cutting measure for a school like Yale? I guess they can't be students since it's basically a full time job.

 

[Sloof]

I find that pretty strange. I guess you're seen as someone like an orderly at a hospital? Or is this a cost cutting measure for a school like Yale? I guess they can't be students since it's basically a full time job.

He lied about his previous work experience on his resume, and his fiancee, sister and brother-in-law were all employee's of YARC which provided him with a foot-in-the-door so to speak.

 

[truecrimejunkie]

I think the terms are easy to confuse here. Lab techs usually have a college degree in life sciences/chemistry. Animal techs are usually high school diplomates. It is a low paying job, unless you were say the supervisor of the animal facility. Animal techs are not responsible for chemicals. I dont know their exact duties at Yale but I have worked in similar institutions where animals techs were responsible for feeding, watering and cleaning of the animals. They would make sure enough mice were ready to meet the researchers needs.

 

[Sloof]

Clark may not have graduated HS, hinted at here:

While slated to graduate in 2004, Clark is not listed or shown in a photo as a member of the senior class in the 2004 Milestone, the school&#8217;s yearbook. One year later, the BHS 2005 Milestone includes one photo of Clark as a member of the BHS varsity baseball squad. However, Clark was not listed or shown in a photo as a member of the Class of 2005. A request to BHS administration for verification of Clark&#8217;s high school graduation date had not been answered as of press time.

article: http://waterfordtimes.thetimesgroup...-suspect-joined-bhs-asian-awareness-club.aspx

 

[Harmony 2]

Hi, Schlock Holmes. to call Clark a scientist or a student is stretching the term. He was a high school graduate with a low-level, low-paying job, and no real authority; Annie Le was a Yale graduate researcher on a significant project. To say that they had "no reason for them to have crossed swords on that morning" presumes access to their moods and thoughts and the immediate situation.

If Clark was "a pretty nice guy," it's difficult to explain why he had a police report written about him as reported in a New Haven newspaper and on CBS; and a former high school girlfriend who described him as a completely controlling boyfriend. And some of those "few people" are much more specific about his relationships with women than very general quotes on Larry King about memories from male friends who showed almost zero awareness of his workplace or woman problems.

You're right to say that we should wait until the trial to see how things unfold, but since very few of us have the remotest chance on being on the jury, we can form tentative conclusions. From several of your posts, we can deduce that you already have.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/23/crimesider/entry5332551.shtml

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/17/crimesider/entry5317567.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/24/news/new_haven/a3-lemoreevidence.txt

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/20/news/new_haven/doc4ab59381ee3b1069607649.txt

Good morning everyone!!!

If the conflicting accounts of RC being a 'nice guy' and the opposing allegations of rape and control issues are true, then it almost appears like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde persona.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Dr-Jekyll-and-Mr-Hyde---The-Two-Faces-of-Narcissism&id=1474184


http://classiclit.about.com/library/weekly/aa101700a.htm

MOO

 

[Chanler]

I find that pretty strange. I guess you're seen as someone like an orderly at a hospital? Or is this a cost cutting measure for a school like Yale? I guess they can't be students since it's basically a full time job.

Hi, Shlock Holmes, I think that your orderly analogy is right on target.

I don't think that it's cost-cutting; I think that it's true of animal techs at colleges generally.

By the way, I don't mean to demean animal techs. Most of them are good people who work hard and provide essential, if rudimentary assistance to keep experiments rolling smoothly along. As someone noted in a newspaper post, a good animal tech is worth their weight in gold. (Some of them, by the way, do get promoted to other jobs, and some of them use their jobs to take college courses for free or at greatly reduced prices; this apparently wasn't the case here.)

I mentioned the low salary and low status because I think that Raymond Clark might have resented the disparity in their jobs, their hours, and their workplace leverage. One of the articles mentioned that he wasn't "a straight arrow" at work, perhaps indicating that his performance hadn't always been up to snuff. It's possible that Clark's email was prompted by Annie Le's voicing worry that her experiment animals might be mishandled in her absence, a reasonable enough worry. Clark may have been fuming that he was being singled out unjustly for criticism and wanted to confront her.

(Clark's criticism of researchers reminded me of an employee I supervised many years ago whose annual reviews generally consisted of him voicing detailed complaints about fellow office co-workers. Hardly a way to become popular in an office.)

 

[Chanler]

Good morning everyone!!!

If the conflicting accounts of RC being a 'nice guy' and the opposing allegations of rape and control issues are true, then it almost appears like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde persona.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Dr-Jekyll-and-Mr-Hyde---The-Two-Faces-of-Narcissism&id=1474184


http://classiclit.about.com/library/weekly/aa101700a.htm

MOO

Hi, Harmon2, I think that most impulse killers qualify to at least a small coterie of friends as "nice guys". I think that in this case, some people saw both sides: At his friendly neighborhood baseball games, Clark apparently had to be physically restrained from attacking an umpire.

In rereading the personal accounts of Clark, I notice that virtually all the "he's a great guy" comments date back to high school and many were voiced by people who hadn't seen him since then. It's quite possible that the transition from being a popular guy at high school to being a rodent keeper rubbed this young man the wrong way. It certainly wouldn't raise most people's spirits.

P.S. Your argument gains force with this description by the ex-girlfriend which indicates that he seemed perfect at first, then turned into a controlling, apparently violent person. (It's interesting that the police apparently cautioned her not to speak to details related to what seems to be physical violence, although she did mention the forced sex:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/accused-annie-le-killer-raymond-clark-history-anger/story?id=8648090

 

[Harmony 2]

Hi, Harmon2, I think that most impulse killers qualify to at least a small coterie of friends as "nice guys". I think that in this case, some people saw both sides: At his friendly neighborhood baseball games, Clark apparently had to be physically restrained from attacking an umpire.

In rereading the personal accounts of Clark, I notice that virtually all the "he's a great guy" comments date back to high school and many were voiced by people who hadn't seen him since then. It's quite possible that the transition from being a popular guy at high school to being a rodent keeper rubbed this young man the wrong way. It certainly wouldn't raise most people's spirits.

P.S. Your argument gains force with this description by the ex-girlfriend which indicates that he seemed perfect at first, then turned into a controlling, apparently violent person. (It's interesting that the police apparently cautioned her not to speak to details related to what seems to be physical violence, although she did mention the forced sex:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/accused-annie-le-killer-raymond-clark-history-anger/story?id=8648090

Hi!!!

I always enjoy reading your well thought out posts. This statement from your link stood out:

She backed the widely held belief among the people who knew Clark that he was a contradictory personality -- outgoing and well-liked but also dark and controlling.

I had not heard about RC having to be restrained from attacking an umpire. Did you hear that on television or was it in print media?

 

[Chanler]

Hi!!!

I always enjoy reading your well thought out posts. This statement from your link stood out:



I had not heard about RC having to be restrained from attacking an umpire. Did you hear that on television or was it in print media?

Hi, Harmony2, thanks for your kind remarks. I enjoy your buoyant posts too. Rereading some of mine, I think that they appear sterner than I mean them to be.

The quote that you pinpoint really does capsulize it well.

The story about the umpire was in the print media. I'll try to find it. I think that even his two friends who given the most prominent media interviews tiptoed a little around the question of his competitiveness.

Graduate lab and studio situations can get very complicated. People are working long hours, often under very stressful conditions. Workers doing different tasks often don't communicate much with one another.

With a public defender lawyer, Clark's case seems really hopeless. Only a very, very expensive defense casting doubt on every bit of forensics has even the slightest chance of even tying up the jury.

A case like this ruins so many lives.

P.S. This isn't the article that I originally saw, but it does mention the incident, which occurred about a month ago.

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/20/news/new_haven/doc4ab59381ee3b1069607649.txt
"Despite Clark being largely described as &#8220;quiet,&#8221; a temper was displayed at a softball game, according to a source who was there. About a month ago,Clark had to be separated from an umpire at the recreation league game, the source said."

 

[songline]

Hi, Songline, I think that the key is that it was a volatile situation. She was under the pressure of winding up at the lab and preparing for "the most important day" of her life; he was probably hoping to confront her or make some demand in the limited time before she disappeared to get married.

One reason that the situation might have escalated is the good job and future plans that you mentioned. After a friend of mine threatened to report a taxi driver for refusing to take her to her destination, he drove his car into her, actually shredding her shoe and injuring her foot. He had no previous record.

Your caution about being hanging judges before the trial is wise, but I do think that it's difficult to reconcile a strangling death with an accident, especially since the corpse was concealed.

I read a bit more on him in the Enquirer. seems he used to enjoy torturing animals since he was very young....That has shifted my thinking too.
That is not a good sign at all, in fact it is a sign that lets me see the side of him I could not see before. I think you are right.

 

[Chanler]

I read a bit more on him in the Enquirer. seems he used to enjoy torturing animals since he was very young....That has shifted my thinking too.
That is not a good sign at all, in fact it is a sign that lets me see the side of him I could not see before. I think you are right.

Hi, Songline; as you say, not a good sign at all! Childhood animal torture is a common characteristic of men who become killers.

From the disparity between the descriptions of Clark in high school and those of him at the lab, he was now festering with resentment. In one sense, he was working hard at the lab and dotting not only his own i's, but everybody's else's too, but his lack of status and dwindling social skills marginalized him and made him more defensive. Over the years, I've worked with two people like that and I did what little I could do to improve their situation.

 

[eyes4crime]

Hi, Songline; as you say, not a good sign at all! Childhood animal torture is a common characteristic of men who become killers.

From the disparity between the descriptions of Clark in high school and those of him at the lab, he was now festering with resentment. In one sense, he was working hard at the lab and dotting not only his own i's, but everybody's else's too, but his lack of status and dwindling social skills marginalized him and made him more defensive. Over the years, I've worked with two people like that and I did what little I could do to improve their situation.

Research shows that one of the cardinal signs of becoming a psychopath is deprivation of emotion. Perhaps due to faulty wiring. Clark's ability to carry on routine duties and activities after murdering Annie is one more sign of his inability to form empathic, compassionate relationships. Makes you wonder, as so many have questioned, if he was ever going to get married and what the purpose of his engagement really was. I think the murder of Annie was planned in his mind, I call it rumination, - only this time he carried it out. I have no doubt Annie bruised his ago over and over, not intentionally, but because she was Annie - a brilliant, confident, beautiful, and dynamic female. All are my opinions only

 

[Rick Tigger]

Hello Everyone,
I'm new to the forum & happy to be here. I'm an Astrologer & Metaphysical. I ran his birth chart. I see nothing that would indicate split personality or bursts of anger. He has a Taurus Moon which steadies the emotions from highs and lows. Venus & Mars in Pisces would make him passive and laid back. What a lot of people are saying I can't see it. Looking at the pictures of him and GF I see more anger in her eyes than his. Just my Opinion.

 

[Harmony 2]

Hello Everyone,
I'm new to the forum & happy to be here. I'm an Astrologer & Metaphysical. I ran his birth chart. I see nothing that would indicate split personality or bursts of anger. He has a Taurus Moon which steadies the emotions from highs and lows. Venus & Mars in Pisces would make him passive and laid back. What a lot of people are saying I can't see it. Looking at the pictures of him and GF I see more anger in her eyes than his. Just my Opinion.

How do you explain the rape of his ex-girlfriend? There are police reports to back it up.

BTW, Welcome to WS!! We have a forensic astrology forum you might want to visit.