RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

[Linda7NJ]

Excuse me?

If anyone can provide the comment from Kolar's book I'd appreciate it. I can't ATM, but it's has been discussed here. If my use of the word "desirable" offends you, well then you didn't get my parenthetical.

I really don't appreciate my post being labeled "laughable" by you. I've noticed you are a poster who makes pretty controversial posts, and also comments about having your views negatively commented on, so I don't get where you're coming from. Maybe next time try stating you don't agree, rather than being sarcastic and dismissive.

I've posted research on here previously backing up Kolars & your assertion. It's true and well documented.


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[bettybaby00]

Has anyone compiled a list of cases involving similar head injuries? I feel like a major key to this case is how that head injury was caused. It's so severe that I tend not to go with accident or even moment of rage, although it's possible. It just seems like she was hit so hard that it was intentional, which doesn't fit with many of the popular theories. I also don't give much weight to the scream because it's hard to prove that happened and was JonBenet. So hitting her to silence her also never really made a ton of sense to me, especially considering that person would have to have an object readily in hand. Again, anything's possible, but I would like to know how other children with similar injuries received them.

I don't know of any off hand, but IIRC ST said in an interview that he thought a golf club might have been involved? Was PRs sister able to take the clubs out that day?

A club club seems like it could do the damage, as well as the mag flashlight or a bat.

It's possible that JRB was struck while lying face down? My thinking is that if struck while in that position her head would absorb the hit fully, eliminating her ability to try and move away from the blow, plus there would be no room for her head/neck to "reverberate" from the hit...kinda like what happens in cases of whiplash?

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Excuse me?

If anyone can provide the comment from Kolar's book I'd appreciate it. I can't ATM, but it's has been discussed here. If my use of the word "desirable" offends you, well then you didn't get my parenthetical.

I really don't appreciate my post being labeled "laughable" by you. I've noticed you are a poster who makes pretty controversial posts, and also comments about having your views negatively commented on, so I don't get where you're coming from. Maybe next time try stating you don't agree, rather than being sarcastic and dismissive.

I apologize if you feel offended.

You didn't invent the idea that children soil themselves to appear undesireable. That idea has been around a long time. I was criticizing the idea not you. That's why you weren't in quotes. I found the idea laughable, oh say, 40 years ago when I first read it.

I also read, oh say, 40 years ago the idea that infants value their feces in a stage of self recognition and will spread it as a form of self expression. They then must be taught that poo is a bad thing and must be handled accordingly. Like all tasks of learning right from wrong the failure to separate themselves from poo and pee is regarded as a pathology in development.

I would tend to go with the analysis of lack of development instead of what seems like an advanced capability. I think the recognition of poo as bad and using it to make one appear undesireable in anticipation of and to avoid molestation is a sign of a mature state not a regressive one.

Again, any slight was intended at the idea not you. I'll be more careful.

 

[bettybaby00]

I apologize if you feel offended.


Again, any slight was intended at the idea not you. I'll be more careful.

Thanks for the clarification, i appreciate it.

 

[questfortrue]

Question for you--or any one else that has experience in this area.

I know it is believed that a child will soil themselves in an attempt to be less "desirable" (sorry can't think if a better word). Is it more common for a child to do this in their bed, if the abuse is taking place in their bed? Such as the abuser visits them during the night?

TIA.

On this topic there was a study done by the National Library of Medicine which indicated that about 10% of encopresis was related to abuse, about 10% related to psychiatric issues and 2% “normative”/ not related to the psychiatric or sexual abuse. But when they looked at behavior of sexually abused children in addition to the soiling, the percentage shot up to 45%.
The behavior indications have been pretty well discussed on the forum. An interesting article about the incestuous family is http://www.survivorshandbook.com/the-incestuous-family/ Excerpt from it -

“The family is not as stable internally as it appears on the outside. The parents often lack the emotional energy to adequately nurture one another, much less their children. Both are affectionally needy as a result of their own emotionally impoverished and/or abusive upbringings. Over time, they become estranged from one another, emotionally and sexually. Not infrequently, they have developed work and social schedules which allow them to avoid interacting with one another on much more than a superficial level. The mother turns to her daughter for help in running the household and the father turns to her (the daughter) for emotional and sexual sustenance. Children often turn to one another to meet emotional or other needs and, not infrequently, their relationship becomes sexual. Another sibling variation is the brother who becomes sexually predatory towards his sister in direct modeling of his father’s incestuous behavior.”

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

In the Ramsey case with all the evidence of objectifying and use of JonBenet as object in the pageants I would be more likely to look in Patsy's direction as the source of abuse leading to toileting problems. And that abuse need not be sexual in nature or even physical. But that part is indicated by the autopsy report of vaginal damage. Still the abuse due to boundary crossing can be many pronged.

 

[DeDee]

Sensitive Subject Matter
Scroll and Roll, as Tricia would apt to say, if you think you may be offended by graphic details.

Has anyone compiled a list of cases involving similar head injuries? I feel like a major key to this case is how that head injury was caused. It's so severe that I tend not to go with accident or even moment of rage, although it's possible. It just seems like she was hit so hard that it was intentional, which doesn't fit with many of the popular theories. I also don't give much weight to the scream because it's hard to prove that happened and was JonBenet. So hitting her to silence her also never really made a ton of sense to me, especially considering that person would have to have an object readily in hand. Again, anything's possible, but I would like to know how other children with similar injuries received them.

I agree. The head blow was not performed as a method for quickly silencing the child. This murder was not caused from an accident. The death was already planned for Christmas Day. On Dec. 23, PR presented her daughter with a gold bracelet inscribed with the date December 25, 1996. That was no coincidence folks. Alright?

Every murder case is unique in its own way. Consider this, if you will. The 47" 6yowf was conked on her head with such force that it knocked an appx 1x1 1/2" chunk out of her skull bone and created a 1/8" wide gaping 8 1/2" long fracture.

Starting from almost JonBenet's nose, and traversing just right of midline, all the way back across, the entire top of her skull was cracked open. Intentional, or not, it was deadly. Nor is she going to be screaming after the violent head blow. If there was a scream, then it came from the area near where the ducts and the boiler were located outside of the WC concrete walls.

If ER care had been sought immediately, with exceptional medical attention provided, JBR most likely would live no longer than a week, if that. Instead, JonBenet was strangled and died, in her own home, without receiving proper medical attention.

In order, the rape notwithstanding, the three separate attacks or assaults that took place within 90 minutes of one another were possibly:
1) slight strangulation meant for control over victim (BlueBottle reminded me of the important control factor)
2) head bash occurs as victim's head tilts forward from the prior strangulation
3) final tight ligature

Appx ninety minutes after eating pineapple, iow, if she ate pineapple at 10:00, the initial crime began close to midnight, then she dies by 1:00, which is my choice.

The immediate blunt force trauma did not tear nor rip through JBRs scalp. No abrasions were noted on the scalp. From tests conducted, that I have read and viewed on this site alone, although there are others' experiments, it was the heavy, tough rubber black maglight flashlight from the Rs kitchen counter that was, most likely, one of the killing tools. The white nylon cord was the other.

The flashlight is quite similar to torches LEO carry on the beat. IIRC, the R flashlight came up missing in the locked evidence room but was later located...maybe a LEO borrowed it.

otg conducted many experiments on possible head weapons and also video recorded his attempts of cracking multiple items such as trials on boiled eggs using various devices to determine certain factors.


Every murder case is unique. Although not similar, there is an interesting and quite fascinating case on WS regarding the death of 6yowm Maxfield Shacknai and followed by, within 2 days, an unusual outdoor suicide hanging of Rebecca Zahau from the second floor balcony.

Maxie somehow fell or was pushed off the mansion's second floor, accidentally or otherwise, landing in rigid decorticated posturing when responding PM & LEO arrived. [JBR did not display decorticated or, even worse, decerebrate posturing from the head blow she received as her rigor & AR have shown.]

Maxie died 5 long, short days later from his cracked skull [enclosed skull fracture similar to JBRs] and consequent fatal brain injury. Jonah, his father, who founded Medis, owned the lovely Spreckel's Castle in Coronado Beach, CA where Maxie's death occurred.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149706"]Max's Search Warrants Released!!!! Discuss Max's Death here #2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


It's another intriguing who done it. http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/

Did I answer your question? :blushing: A motor vehicle accident, possibly a fall, a hard slam against a certain shaped blunt object or blunt force trauma could cause the type of head injury JBR exhibited.

OMO And subject to change without notice

 

[bettybaby00]

On this topic there was a study done by the National Library of Medicine which indicated that about 10% of encopresis was related to abuse, about 10% related to psychiatric issues and 2% “normative”/ not related to the psychiatric or sexual abuse. But when they looked at behavior of sexually abused children in addition to the soiling, the percentage shot up to 45%.
The behavior indications have been pretty well discussed on the forum. An interesting article about the incestuous family is http://www.survivorshandbook.com/the-incestuous-family/ Excerpt from it -

“The family is not as stable internally as it appears on the outside. The parents often lack the emotional energy to adequately nurture one another, much less their children. Both are affectionally needy as a result of their own emotionally impoverished and/or abusive upbringings. Over time, they become estranged from one another, emotionally and sexually. Not infrequently, they have developed work and social schedules which allow them to avoid interacting with one another on much more than a superficial level. The mother turns to her daughter for help in running the household and the father turns to her (the daughter) for emotional and sexual sustenance. Children often turn to one another to meet emotional or other needs and, not infrequently, their relationship becomes sexual. Another sibling variation is the brother who becomes sexually predatory towards his sister in direct modeling of his father’s incestuous behavior.”

Yikes!!!

I also wanted to add another point that Kolar makes with regard to SBP/Burke..
I think it's important to remember as it's easy to be dismissive of this concept b/c "boys this age aren't interest in sex"

*Although the term “sexual” is used, the children’s intentions and motivations for these behaviors may be unrelated to sexual gratification. Children act out (sexually) for many varied reasons. Some may have been the prior victims of sexual abuse. Some may act out due to other behavioral problems related to PTSD, anger, fear, or emotional detachment.

*Sexual acting out has been linked to anger, rage, loneliness, and fear.

As far as PR being an abuser in a non-physical manner, anything is possible.

For all we know JRB was not enjoying pageant life, despite PRs claims...as with many things Ramsey, those statements could have represented 1/2 truths.

For example I could see JRB enjoying performing, "dressing up" and the camaraderie of the pageants, but how excited was she by the demanding schedule, the endless lessons, the time spent dying her hair, obsessing over her appearance? My guess would be not much.

 

[Tawny]

I apologize if you feel offended.

You didn't invent the idea that children soil themselves to appear undesireable. That idea has been around a long time. I was criticizing the idea not you. That's why you weren't in quotes. I found the idea laughable, oh say, 40 years ago when I first read it.

RSBM

Except that you're mistaken. It IS true that children WILL soil themselves, urinate or even vomit ON their molester, in an attempt to make the bad stuff stop happening. Usually it's because it worked before. They urinated on the attacker and he/she stopped to go clean themselves up.

The child doesn't CONSCIOUSLY know that it's making them "undesirable." All they know is "If I pee on the bad man, he stops hurting me for now."

Just because an idea has been around for a long time also doesn't make it invalid.

 

[2 percent]

RSBM

Except that you're mistaken. It IS true that children WILL soil themselves, urinate or even vomit ON their molester, in an attempt to make the bad stuff stop happening. Usually it's because it worked before. They urinated on the attacker and he/she stopped to go clean themselves up.

The child doesn't CONSCIOUSLY know that it's making them "undesirable." All they know is "If I pee on the bad man, he stops hurting me for now."

Just because an idea has been around for a long time also doesn't make it invalid.

Even older children will exhibit this behavior. Teenage girls will stop bathing, stop using deodorant, brushing their teeth and they'll dress differently, too. All of this to make themselves less attractive, not knowing that that kind of attraction has little to nothing to do with it at that point.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

RSBM



The child doesn't CONSCIOUSLY know that it's making them "undesirable."

Then how do you?

 

[bettybaby00]

Then how do you?

How what

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

How what

I'm all for psychology. How does one know that a child will soil themselves to appear undesirable? By intuition? Divination? Theorizng is fine but unsubstanitated conclusions are not.

Bedwetting and encopresis are due to lack of control. I doubt if a child afflicted so can turn on the control valve and use the stuff as suggested.

I will accept the possibility that a child that has recognized the negative aspects of urine and feces can use those as tools to attack, afterall they are products under control of the consious to the point exctretion can be delayed but not summoned at will.

The idea that a child will wet the bed or poop in it deliberately in anticipation of a miolesters attack for the purpose of repelling is fanciful at least. The idea they can transfer that knowledge to themselves out of the bed is pretty fancy indeed.

I'm sceptical.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm all for psychology. How does one know that a child will soil themselves to appear undesirable? By intuition? Divination? Theorizng is fine but unsubstanitated conclusions are not.



Bedwetting and encopresis are due to lack of control. I doubt if a child afflicted so can turn on the control valve and use the stuff as suggested.



I will accept the possibility that a child that has recognized the negative aspects of urine and feces can use those as tools to attack, afterall they are products under control of the consious to the point exctretion can be delayed but not summoned at will.



The idea that a child will wet the bed or poop in it deliberately in anticipation of a miolesters attack for the purpose of repelling is fanciful at least. The idea they can transfer that knowledge to themselves out of the bed is pretty fancy indeed.



I'm sceptical.

Non offending parents report coupled with child's self report of sexual abuse.

Often a child that has never had toileting issues suddenly starts soiling themselves and their beds. It's usually a sign the abuser is IN THE HOME.



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[bettybaby00]

Non offending parents report coupled with child's self report of sexual abuse.

Often a child that has never had toileting issues suddenly starts soiling themselves and their beds. It's usually a sign the abuser is IN THE HOME.



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IA


BB01

Bedwetting and encopresis are due to lack of control. I doubt if a child afflicted so can turn on the control valve and use the stuff as suggested.

I will accept the possibility that a child that has recognized the negative aspects of urine and feces can use those as tools to attack, afterall they are products under control of the consious to the point exctretion can be delayed but not summoned at will.

Again, I'm confused...you are saying its not something they can't control, while your next paragraph suggests they can?

What do you mean by attacked? Just trying to understand..

The only point I was originally trying to make was that kids suffering child abuse often regress to bedwetting, etc. the answers posted offer insight into whether or not kids will UNCONSCIOUSLY soil themselves/bed in an effort to I stave off being molested. I was simply curious whether or not there has been any link between soiling in their bed, and the abuse taking place in their bed. I had this question b/c I thought it might offer a clue as to who was molesting JRB.

 

[2 percent]

IA


BB01


Again, I'm confused...you are saying its not something they could control, while your next paragraph suggests they can?

What do you mean by attacked? Just trying to understand..

The only point I was originally trying to make was that kids suffering child abuse often regress to bedwetting, etc. the answers posted offer insight into whether or not kids will UNCONSCIOUSLY soil themselves/bed in an effort to I stave off being molested. I was simply curious whether or not there has been any link between soiling in their bed, and the abuse taking place in their bed. I had this question b/c I thought it might offer a clue as to who was molesting JRB.

Think of it like this...No matter how "enlightened" and independent women are, many of them change, at least on the surface, so men will find them attractive, pay attention to them. I'm observing a woman right now who is so desperate for my friend's attention she pretends to like everything he likes.

I doubt she does this consciously, that would be humiliating. And obvious. So I think the changes in her and other women like her I've come across are unconsciously fueled by her conscious need to please/attract him.

Abused people are the same...they consciously don't want to be the target, don't want to be pursued. But the way they go about avoiding the pursuit is largely unconscious behavior. Once many display the exact same unconscious behavior to consciously avoid attention, it becomes a discernable pattern.

 

[bettybaby00]

Think of it like this...No matter how "enlightened" and independent women are, many of them change, at least on the surface, so men will find them attractive, pay attention to them. I'm observing a woman right now who is so desperate for my friend's attention she pretends to like everything he likes.

I doubt she does this consciously, that would be humiliating. And obvious. So I think the changes in her and other women like her I've come across are unconsciously fueled by her conscious need to please/attract him.

Abused people are the same...they consciously don't want to be the target, don't want to be pursued. But the way they go about avoiding the pursuit is largely unconscious behavior. Once many display the exact same unconscious behavior to consciously avoid attention, it becomes a discernable pattern.

I just noticed a typo in my post, which you quoted before I could correct. I blocked it in my original post.

You still seem to get what I mean though

And IA with your post

 

[Tawny]

You'll have to be patient. I'm entertaining guests until the end of the week and I'll get back to you if someone else doesn't already have some links for you by then.

 

[bettybaby00]

I've already done the research.
I'm not rude, I am trying to wake you up.

Trying to wake her/us up from what?

We've followed the case, considered evidence, behaviors, statement evidence etc., and formed conclusions...I'm pretty sure that's what you've done as well.

Everyone on this forum has come to a conclusion, or a partial conclusion based on all of those things, and yea, I'm sure personal experiences have influenced many as well.

If you're trying to "wake people up," try dropping the snark. Especially considering your viewpoint---which if I've followed correctly centers on a fanatical, religious sacrifice committed by a women suffering some sort of pyschotic break. Not exactly a majority viewpoint, particularly by "paying readers, the media or LE."

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

her/us

her