RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

[midwest mama]

This is a little off topic, but I've been formulating a theory for a few weeks. Tonight I stumbled onto something that's again given me that sick feeling in my stomach. It's mixed with fear. Is that why this case is so addictive? There's something intellectual about solving a puzzle but something frightening and dangerous as well.

I'm just curious if anyone feels this way too?

I'm going to put a crazy theory on the Theories thread (but only as a whole story when I get it together). Only what I stumbled on tonight, made the ransom note make sense. I've still new here, read hundreds of pages, but it feels like two pins have just locked into place. I'm sure everyone has felt that way too about some parts of this case so it'll probably be nothing new. But there's that sick feeling like I want to unlearn what I just learned. Is there a way to get over that?

That sick feeling is from the shock most of us experience due to the heinous reality of this crime. Most of us grieve the injustice that continues in this case along with the torturous loss of JB'S innocent life. In grieving, shock is one of the 5 stages, which I believe you may find exchanges places with one of the other 4 stages as you vonsider this crime.

The other 4; let's see:
1. Denial. How could anyone have done such horrible things to a 6 yr old girl, let alone possibly someone in her family?
2. Anger. You can't possibly look at this crime without feeling angry that it happened.
3. Rationalizing. Well, it had to have been an accident that needed covering up and empathy for the perp.
4. Acceptance. Someone put a noose on JB'S neck and strangled the life from her, which is murder, and after nearly 19 years it remains unsolved and may remain so.

Yet, we here at WS shall possibly ever be held in the interchangeable stages of grief connected to the lack of closure in this case.

 

[midwest mama]

Many ask why did they called the police right away (not to mentioned all the friends ).
But what I find even more strange is that they don't even mentioned stopping for a second to discuss the RN. Like, should we? Here it says she'll be beheaded if we do?
Also in the 911 call Patsy doesn't seems preoccupied with the fact that the RN says they're being watched, I mean, asking something like "could you try not being noticed when getting here? or something like that...

The R's did later supply comments about that. In the early years after the crime, PR said (which JR corroborated) that JR told her to go ahead and call police as he was reading through the note. But after a few years, PR gave another version in which she said she went ahead and called them on her own, supposedly out of panic.

 

[andreww]

The RN only makes sense within the crime, IMO, if it was left to fool PR, and ultimately provide JR an opportunity to either dispose of JB'S body or set it up as if "the kidnappers" ended up killing her before he made "the pick-up".

Then, PR'S call to 911 also made sense if we believe she did not read the whole note before she placed the call, as she later explained.

Most of the other factors of this crime are explainable if PR had no involvement prior to discovery of the RN.

But Didn't Patsy state that as she stood waiting for police to arrive, that she wondered if calling them was a good idea because of the threats in the note?


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[Prahasaurus]

Many ask why did they called the police right away (not to mentioned all the friends ).
But what I find even more strange is that they don't even mentioned stopping for a second to discuss the RN. Like, should we? Here it says she'll be beheaded if we do?
Also in the 911 call Patsy doesn't seems preoccupied with the fact that the RN says they're being watched, I mean, asking something like "could you try not being noticed when getting here? or something like that...

It's insane. What lunatic sees that note and immediately calls 911, without even reading the entire thing!?? When your child's life is on the line??!! You have to discuss it with your spouse, first. And even if you both agree to notify the police, you certainly don't call 911. You might as well just go out your front door and start screaming "kidnappers!" You call a lawyer, or someone you know at the police station who can handle this discretely.

This was one of the most comically staged kidnapping/murders of all time. The phoney broken window, the War and Peace ransom note, the fact that everything involved in the crime originated in the Ramsey's own home.... I mean seriously, I can only think the police looked at it and said, "Nobody could be this inept at staging a crime scene, it's so bad it must be legitimate."

 

[andreww]

The R's did later supply comments about that. In the early years after the crime, PR said (which JR corroborated) that JR told her to go ahead and call police as he was reading through the note. But after a few years, PR gave another version in which she said she went ahead and called them on her own, supposedly out of panic.

So why would both of them state in their individual police interview that it was John that told Patsy to call police? If it didn't happen that way why would both of them give the same false story?


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[midwest mama]

So why would both of them state in their individual police interview that it was John that told Patsy to call police? If it didn't happen that way why would both of them give the same false story?


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Because they were coached to do so? The reason given by JR for hiring their legal team, was to prepare a defense for him. In the beginning, LE heavily suspected JR. Wouldn't it have looked better early on to report that JR was in favor of the call, since surely that would not cast him in a suspicious light?

 

[Prahasaurus]

So why would both of them state in their individual police interview that it was John that told Patsy to call police? If it didn't happen that way why would both of them give the same false story?

If JR acted alone, he would want to be part of the decision to call the police. Otherwise, it's suspicious. So when PR recovered from her shock and the drugs, he sat her down and said the following:

"Forensic experts have cleared me. They know I didn't write the note. But the police are asking me a lot of questions about you! I know it's crazy, but I think they really believe you did this. So let's go through everything together so there are no discrepancies in our stories. We don't want to give them anything they can later use to charge you with this crime."

And he coached her on their story. When she wasn't sure, he pushed: "Didn't you hear me? I told you to dial the police. Perhaps you were already running for the phone and didn't hear. In any case, I told the police I told you to call the police. So let's not contradict each other. Think again, it's important you remember that I also told you to call the police, otherwise it will be another reason for them to go after us. And probably you, since they have already cleared me, but seem convinced you wrote that note!"

I'm not convinced JR acted alone, but it certainly explains the ransom note, and why PR called the police.

 

[Aynia]

But Didn't Patsy state that as she stood waiting for police to arrive, that she wondered if calling them was a good idea because of the threats in the note?


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From Patsy's June,23,1998 police interview

" 3 TOM HANEY: And understanding that
4 they are close friends, but did you think that,
5 give any thought to having all this traffic
6 coming over?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
8 TOM HANEY: Folks coming to the
9 house?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
11 TOM HANEY: You had gotten through
12 that portion of the note that talked about don't
13 call the police, the FBI?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
15 TOM HANEY: We are watching you or
16 something like that?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I know."

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

 

[CorallaroC]

From Patsy's June,23,1998 police interview

" 3 TOM HANEY: And understanding that
4 they are close friends, but did you think that,
5 give any thought to having all this traffic
6 coming over?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
8 TOM HANEY: Folks coming to the
9 house?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
11 TOM HANEY: You had gotten through
12 that portion of the note that talked about don't
13 call the police, the FBI?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
15 TOM HANEY: We are watching you or
16 something like that?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I know."

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

Thank you Aynia, I had been trying to find documented sources regarding this aspect of the crime file.

My own opinion of course, I simply cannot understand how she (PR) would have had no concerns about blatantly violating the orders given in the ransom note. With this, we read her own words that make it clear that she "gave no thought" to it (as the Q was asked of her).

How can that be????

I do not recall the parents EVER expressing any concern whatsoever that the "kidnapper" could still be hiding in their home. Or that the "kidnapper" could be waiting/watching outside of the house, to either harm them or harm JBR as the note threatened. I would say THIS is the #1 reason I find it difficult to believe in any IDI theory.... JMO

 

[Anti-K]

If JR acted alone, he would want to be part of the decision to call the police. Otherwise, it's suspicious. So when PR recovered from her shock and the drugs, he sat her down and said the following:

"Forensic experts have cleared me. They know I didn't write the note. But the police are asking me a lot of questions about you! I know it's crazy, but I think they really believe you did this. So let's go through everything together so there are no discrepancies in our stories. We don't want to give them anything they can later use to charge you with this crime."

And he coached her on their story. When she wasn't sure, he pushed: "Didn't you hear me? I told you to dial the police. Perhaps you were already running for the phone and didn't hear. In any case, I told the police I told you to call the police. So let's not contradict each other. Think again, it's important you remember that I also told you to call the police, otherwise it will be another reason for them to go after us. And probably you, since they have already cleared me, but seem convinced you wrote that note!"

I'm not convinced JR acted alone, but it certainly explains the ransom note, and why PR called the police.

If Mr Ramsey did this, then all he would have to do to prevent the call is to be present when the note is discovered – very, very easily accomplished. Then he just has to say, “OMG! It says they’ll cut our baby’s head off if we call the police!!!” Problem solved.

This did not happen, and we know it did not happen because of how early the 911 call was made.

To wildly speculate that Mr Ramsey later convinced Mrs Ramsey that it was his idea to call 911, or that she should at least tell investigators that it was his idea doesn’t change the fact that on that morning that call was made almost immediately and without delay.
...

AK

 

[Tawny]

I saw a post in the IDI thread that mentioned police were photocopying money? Does anyone have a link about this? I googled and couldn't find anything.

I'm "not allowed" to post in there without getting freaking ripped up, so I didn't feel comfortable questioning that.

 

[Tawny]

If Mr Ramsey did this, then all he would have to do to prevent the call is to be present when the note is discovered – very, very easily accomplished. Then he just has to say, “OMG! It says they’ll cut our baby’s head off if we call the police!!!” Problem solved.

This did not happen, and we know it did not happen because of how early the 911 call was made.

To wildly speculate that Mr Ramsey later convinced Mrs Ramsey that it was his idea to call 911, or that she should at least tell investigators that it was his idea doesn’t change the fact that on that morning that call was made almost immediately and without delay.
...

AK

We have no idea if the call was made immediately and without delay.

Personally, I wonder if PR called the cops before JR was ready, and that's why he was so p*ssed at her the whole day. Just speculation of course since NO ONE but the parents and BR were there that morning, and they're the least reliable sources ever.

 

[Anti-K]

We have no idea if the call was made immediately and without delay.

Personally, I wonder if PR called the cops before JR was ready, and that's why he was so p*ssed at her the whole day. Just speculation of course since NO ONE but the parents and BR were there that morning, and they're the least reliable sources ever.

Hi Tawny, the specific scenario – Prahasaurus’ - to which I was replying has Mrs Ramsay being innocent. If she was innocent, then she got out of bed around 5:30, got dressed, etc, fussed in the laundry room for a bit and then went down stairs where she discovered the ransom note. The 911 call is made at 5:52, iirc. So, yes, at least in the Prahasaurus’ scenario, we can say that the call was made almos timmediately and without delay.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

I saw a post in the IDI thread that mentioned police were photocopying money? Does anyone have a link about this? I googled and couldn't find anything.

I'm "not allowed" to post in there without getting freaking ripped up, so I didn't feel comfortable questioning that.

Hmmm, this sounds vaguely familiar. But, maybe I just read the same thing that you did. if I remember, and find the time later I’ll check into this.

I can’t speak for others, but I don’t have any problem with you posting on the IDI thread, or with you posting anything that you like over there.
...

AK

 

[questfortrue]

We have no idea if the call was made immediately and without delay.

Personally, I wonder if PR called the cops before JR was ready, and that's why he was so p*ssed at her the whole day. Just speculation of course since NO ONE but the parents and BR were there that morning, and they're the least reliable sources ever.

BBM I've wondered the same thing.

Since this is the RDI thread, I’ll mention that the event of JonBenet’s death was the result of what authorities would call domestic violence/child abuse by one or more of the family. While we have different theories of which Rs were involved and when, no one on this thread usually disputes their involvement. In my view, Kolar does a great job of listing evidence and connecting dots, whether one agrees that his implied conclusion is correct or not. (To me, it was interesting that Beckner said his theory differed from Kolar’s, even though they saw the same evidence.)

One of the things Kolar does is try to understand the death in the context of the household dynamics. We all attempt to apply our logic, based on our understanding of those three people who were known to be in the home that night. I’m no expert in this area, but I do know someone involved in counseling those who have perpetrated violence in their family. From the basic understanding I’ve been provided, the situation of domestic violence or child abuse occurs in households in which those participants have strong emotions which have not been well-addressed or addressed at all. It’s an eruption of emotions and not a field of logic. If I swing this instrument, I’ll control the situation. The decision to swing the instrument is intentional, and in the moment (unless one believes that the situation was pre-medicated and sometimes domestic violence is sadly very pre-meditated). The logic to swing did not go beyond the idea of controlling something.

What occurs next is a situation outside the area of control because it must then be addressed by the outside world, the authorities. IMO, all of the staging from the call to the RN to the cleaning of the body and concealment of the body were an attempt to fool the authorities and put as much distance between themselves and the death (and evidence of molestation) as possible. FWIW, I don’t think I’ve seen any movies in which the police plunk themselves down and hang out in the home waiting for a call from a kidnapper, and who then (the police) also show no signs of leaving the home. I don’t believe the Rs counted on that. Maybe the police felt they had to protect the family from the foreign faction.

Some actions still seem difficult to comprehend as to what was in their minds when certain actions were taken and we don't agree on how each piece of the evidence fits. (BTW, Tawny, you gave a great description of all of the fears they faced that night over on another thread.) But I try to remind myself this was an emotionally charged situation by non-career criminals, and at the time the decisions of one or more adults may have made perfect sense to them. And anyway, it all worked to keep them together as a family and out of jail.

 

[Tawny]

Hmmm, this sounds vaguely familiar. But, maybe I just read the same thing that you did. if I remember, and find the time later I’ll check into this.

I can’t speak for others, but I don’t have any problem with you posting on the IDI thread, or with you posting anything that you like over there.
...

AK

I appreciate that. Others do seem to have an issue with it, so I try to stay away from posting so that no one gets up

 

[Aynia]

About the idea that the red "triangle " mark on JB was made when someone grabbed her by the collar of the shirt, I was wondering if that's why she was changed from the red turtleneck (I can't see how it'd be possible to do that with the Gap start shirt) and if the garrote was used to "explain " that bruise (in the perpetrator mind ). My logic is JB is grabbed by the shirt (neck ) ,then headbash, then during the time she was "passed out " the bruise started to appear? I don't know if that makes sense I know nothing about bruises or the time they take to form, but this idea just came to my mind. (Probably because I can't really fathom the idea that the sole purpose of the garrote was to kill her ) And sorry for being so "graphic ".

 

[mochii]

questfortrue, your post reminds me of something I have been knocking around in my head. IMO, I believe someone in the house was involved that night. I go back and fourth between PDI or BDI (especially after reading Kolar's book & AMA). I may be in the minority, but I don't believe John was involved until the strangulation.

Regarding the abuse: we know by interviewing John's other children he was a great dad, and not abusive. However, I do not get that vibe from Patsy. Behind closed doors I get the impression she was a tyrant (I get a mad "Mommie Dearest" vibe from her). Perhaps I am being too judgmental. I never met her and only know things I've read and watched her interviews in. LHP did say that Patsy would take JB into the bathroom & hear JB screaming. The idiom "Keeping up appearances" applies to the Ramsey family, I think. Again, this is all what I have taken away from various interviews, articles, etc. with the family, friends of the family, and law enforcement.

Whether the "attack" started that night by Patsy being angry regarding bed-wetting (thus, the triangular bruise that Aynia just mentioned), the cracked skull, the rolled up turtle-neck sweater that JB may or have may not worn that night. Or, if Burke angry at his sister used the train tracks to hit JB & the flashlight on her head. It's impossible to know what happened -- but based on what we know this is what has been pieced together. I think it's clear that there was some abuse going on in that house that no one knew about. So whenever I read people speculate there was no abuse, how do we know for certain? We don't know one way or other. There are too many small, bizarre things about this crime that don't sit right with me; and this is why I believe it has to have been done by a Ramsey and things are never as perfect as they seem.

To have been a fly on the wall that night... :/

 

[elannia]

About the idea that the red "triangle " mark on JB was made when someone grabbed her by the collar of the shirt, I was wondering if that's why she was changed from the red turtleneck (I can't see how it'd be possible to do that with the Gap start shirt) and if the garrote was used to "explain " that bruise (in the perpetrator mind ). My logic is JB is grabbed by the shirt (neck ) ,then headbash, then during the time she was "passed out " the bruise started to appear? I don't know if that makes sense I know nothing about bruises or the time they take to form, but this idea just came to my mind. (Probably because I can't really fathom the idea that the sole purpose of the garrote was to kill her ) And sorry for being so "graphic ".

She may have had on the red turtleneck, and maybe that was the reason PR had gotten so upset about it during her interview. Why she had the turtleneck on is what confuses me though, imo it would be uncomfortable to sleep in. Maybe her and JB had an argument at bedtime and PR grabbed her and that caused the bruise?, I have no idea.

 

[mochii]

That's what confuses me, as well. I've read reports she wore the red turtleneck, and reports saying she wore the white shirt with the star. Was it ever reported what she DID wear to the White's house that night?
IIRC, wasn't the red turtleneck damp?