Remember this?

[SweetT]

Many accounts, including that of LA, state that JR's whereabouts were unknown, for up to 1 1/2 hours that morning. No one knows where he was, or what he did. Many theories have come forth, but the most important aspect, is that it fits the timeline of his statement to JAR and SL.

Damn! I didn't know that.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Many accounts, including that of LA, state that JR's whereabouts were unknown, for up to 1 1/2 hours that morning. No one knows where he was, or what he did. Many theories have come forth, but the most important aspect, is that it fits the timeline of his statement to JAR and SL.

IMO, if JR INNOCENTLY discovered JB's body in WC at 11:00am then he would let LE, Patsy and all other know about immidietly!!! But he didn't!!! So, the reasons why he waits until 1:00pm to 'rediscover' her agan are: he knew what happens and he was busy to tide-up the 'staging' in anticipation for the next move.

I have no doubts that JR new where JB is prior 1:00pm. For me, the most important proof of JR knowledge of the hiddend JB body at 11:00am is based on the following.

Two people have been in the basement twice: FW and JR.

- FW was by himself early in morning, he've been in Train room and opened WC;
- After him, JR was in basement (claiming later that he saw open window and luggage). Meaning, he was in Train room. However, he never mentioned that he opened WC;
- Now, near 1:00pm, both of them repeating the same path LEADING by JR. And where he goes? He starts with Train room and next WC.

IMO, JR (unconsciously or deliberately?) repeats the same path in the presence of the witness. JR's path at 1:00pm from Train room to WC tells me that JR had open WC at 11:00am as well.

jmo

 

[Nom de plume]

So are we saying it is possible that JR removed JonBenet from a vehicle and then put her in the basement/winecellar around 11 am? Is that what I'm seeing here?

Not exactly. He would have had to go through the house if he moved her from a vehicle. It has been widely speculated that he did move her from elsewhere in the basement.

In Kolar's book pg#465 is a great diagram. If you don't have the book look at the 2nd diagram of the basement http://crimeshots.com/RamseyFloor.html
you'll notice that in the train room/broken window room there are two crawl spaces, front to back, and another to the side of the back CS behind the WC. She was not found the first time the basement was checked by BPD and FW + JR missing for 90some minutes from approx 10:30 to 12:00 (IIFC) + the marks on her back thought to have been made by the train tracks = ???

My personal belief is that when they were staging, they planned to move her to some other location at a later time to be found by someone else. I don't think they counted on LE staying after the 10:00 deadline. I think JB & accompanying items may have been hidden in one of the crawl spaces, possibly even the one behind the WC. I'm thinking the marks might have been made on her back just before she was being put into the crawl space. Perhaps he had to lay her down to open the "door" or what ever seperated the CS from the basement, and caught her back on a piece of track as he placed her on the train table. The train table is right in front of the entrance to the CS. My feeling is he moved her to the WC during his missing time. I think he became afraid that LE wasn't leaving, Patsy had called half of Boulder over & they showed no signs of leaving, and the situation was getting out of his control. So like a good CEO he took charge and formulated plan B, moving her to a place where it would be easier to find her. Then all he had to do was wait for LA to give him the perfect excuse to "find" her. Had she not, he might have announced that he was going to search the house again, or suggested that LA search again.

Edited to add: CS behind the WC does not show on the crimeshots diagram. It is shown in Kolar's diagram.

 

[DeeDee249]

So are we saying it is possible that JR removed JonBenet from a vehicle and then put her in the basement/winecellar around 11 am? Is that what I'm seeing here?

Highly doubtful. 2 reasons why. Livor Mortis and Rigor Mortis. She wasn't moved. She was placed on her back in that winecellar within 15-20 minutes of her death and that is the way she was found. If you need a further explanation of how livor and rigor mortis progress after death and how they tell whether a body has been moved after death, PM me because most posters here have seen me explain it more times than they'd like.

 

[SunnieRN]

IMO, if JR INNOCENTLY discovered JB's body in WC at 11:00am then he would let LE, Patsy and all other know about immidietly!!! But he didn't!!! So, the reasons why he waits until 1:00pm to 'rediscover' her agan are: he knew what happens and he was busy to tide-up the 'staging' in anticipation for the next move.

I have no doubts that JR new where JB is prior 1:00pm. For me, the most important proof of JR knowledge of the hiddend JB body at 11:00am is based on the following.

Two people have been in the basement twice: FW and JR.

- FW was by himself early in morning, he've been in Train room and opened WC;
- After him, JR was in basement (claiming later that he saw open window and luggage). Meaning, he was in Train room. However, he never mentioned that he opened WC;
- Now, near 1:00pm, both of them repeating the same path LEADING by JR. And where he goes? He starts with Train room and next WC.

IMO, JR (unconsciously or deliberately?) repeats the same path in the presence of the witness. JR's path at 1:00pm from Train room to WC tells me that JR had open WC at 11:00am as well.

jmo

I must say, one more time, that JR has incredible eye sight!! On the 1 pm trip to the wine cellar, he partially opened the door, where he immediately 'saw' JonBenet, despite the fact that the room was dark, there was not a light on in the room, and JonBenet was not by the door, but 'in' the room.

JR is truly a man with x-ray vision.

 

[OpenMind4U]

I must say, one more time, that JR has incredible eye sight!! On the 1 pm trip to the wine cellar, he partially opened the door, where he immediately 'saw' JonBenet, despite the fact that the room was dark, there was not a light on in the room, and JonBenet was not by the door, but 'in' the room.

JR is truly a man with x-ray vision.

Correct. JR doesn't remember if he turned light before he saw JB or not. BPD made an experiment during the day-time: without turning the light-on, nothing is visiable in this room from outside, even if you'll make the step into WC you wouldn't be able to see white blanket on the floor. According to FW, JR starts screaming BEFORE he turned the light. So, JR knew way before 1:00pm where JB was.

LIER criminal!!!....I wish something will be done soon by PEOPLE's JUSTICE...much before John meets his dear wife on another 'side of suffering'.:banghead:

 

[Nom de plume]

Highly doubtful. 2 reasons why. Livor Mortis and Rigor Mortis. She wasn't moved. She was placed on her back in that winecellar within 15-20 minutes of her death and that is the way she was found. If you need a further explanation of how livor and rigor mortis progress after death and how they tell whether a body has been moved after death, PM me because most posters here have seen me explain it more times than they'd like.

DeeDee I'm not sure about this so I'll ask you. Is it not possible that she was placed on her back in one part of the basement, left for hours, and then moved to another part of the basement still on her back? Would simply moving her disturb rigor or show that she had been moved, even if she were in the same posititon, flat on her back, the whole time?

 

[midwest mama]

:waitasec: Mentions of the crawl spaces bring to mind one of the items listed on the retrieved evidence lists. That item was a canvas bag, taken from a crawl space. It was not noted if it was empty or contained items.....perhaps some crime related items? Which could be crime details being withheld by BPD?
Purely speculation, mind you........................

 

[midwestphd]

If she was already dead when placed on top of the train tracks, the marks on her back would not have been red and bloody, right? I have viewed the autopsy photos and the two marks in question look like puncture wounds (I'm not saying that's what they are...it's just what they look like).

Am I correct that these marks must have been made while she was still alive?

 

[SweetT]

Highly doubtful. 2 reasons why. Livor Mortis and Rigor Mortis. She wasn't moved. She was placed on her back in that winecellar within 15-20 minutes of her death and that is the way she was found. If you need a further explanation of how livor and rigor mortis progress after death and how they tell whether a body has been moved after death, PM me because most posters here have seen me explain it more times than they'd like.

Thanks..I do understand somewhat about Rigor MOrtis and Livor mortis..but is it possible for example if someone passed away example in a fetal position and then someone moved them and placed them back into the same position would there be a way to tell if they had actually moved?

SOrry just saw Deplumes question which is the same

 

[SweetT]

DeeDee I'm not sure about this so I'll ask you. Is it not possible that she was placed on her back in one part of the basement, left for hours, and then moved to another part of the basement still on her back? Would simply moving her disturb rigor or show that she had been moved, even if she were in the same posititon, flat on her back, the whole time?

And was she wrapped tightly in the blanket like you swaddle a baby or was it just loosely placed on top of her? Does anyone know?

 

[DeeDee249]

And was she wrapped tightly in the blanket like you swaddle a baby or was it just loosely placed on top of her? Does anyone know?

She was neither. She was lying face up on the blanket and it was pulled up around her torso. Her arms, head, and legs were exposed.
JR described her as being wrapped "papoose-style" but that is not the way I would describe it. Papoose and swaddled babies have their legs wrapped too.
There is a great amount info that will fill in a lot of the basics you are unaware of: http://www.acandyrose.com

You have to scroll down to the JonBenet archives- there are a lot of other crimes on there too. Once you are in the JonBenet section, you will find countless pages of police interviews with the parents, crime photos, the written autopsy report (I HIGHLY recommend it to anyone posting here- you simply have to know the coroner's findings to form a valid opinion). There is a LOT of information there. I am always happy to try to answer questions, as is everyone here, but some of the questions have been answered so many times before and so long ago.