Revenge or justice? Does anyone feel guilty of their behavior

[LCoastMom]

I do think that many are indicating that severe punishment (Revenge) is an important part at least of "Justice" in this case?

Everything we have been told, (a dead 2 y.o. baby, duct tape, chloroform, 31 days) everything that has been alluded to (gparents rx bottles, gas cans, pool chemicals, pesticides). How does a civilized society find an appropriate punishment to all this?

What will suffice as "Justice" for Caylee? I'm glad it's not up to me to decide because I honestly can't think of a legal sentence that fits this crime.

 

[eddeva]

I found myself wondering why am I so blood thirsty for this woman to be punished. I am starting to feel embarrassed about my behavior when KC has a hearing or when I hear bad news for the defense. This is not the first time that someone has committed such a horrible crime but what is it about KC that makes us act in a way that looks like revenge instead of justice?

no she's not the first but she is the most arrogant. perhaps this great anger is a consequence of casey not just being so unmoved by what she has done, but rather so cheerful and swaggering whenever we see her, and our thirst for blood is so great b/c we know, deep down, that we could never bring ourselves to exact the kind of thoughts of revenge that this individual has engendered in us. maybe there's even an unspoken fear inside us, that all she has done may somehow go unpunished and such an idea, in itself, could push anger to fury.
casey feels no guilt, she never will. we can't count on that to exact our pound of flesh. she won't fill her long days w/ sorrow over all she has ruined and a lost life she had no right to take, nor be haunted by the magnitude of her crime and the innocence of it's tiny victim; so trusting and loving and dead.
i'd like hannibal lecter to spend some time alone w/ her. i'd like to see the smirking face and gleeful little eyes pale w/ horror as she realizes what she's locked in a room w/ ... and then i think i'd like to hear her scream for a little while. destroy that happy face and disquiet the unthinking mind w/ a terror strong enough to last a lifetime, and in that moment i would feel a very great sense of satisfaction.
do i feel guilty for having such a desire? no.
would i do it? HELL NO! why? b/c while i can think about it, unless there was some exceptional circumstance, like war or self defence or the defence of those i love, i could never bring myself to in any way destroy another human being.

i'm not casey anthony and my guilt for having acted like a monster would haunt me forever.
that's why i need justice so badly, perhaps why we all do, b/c even though we may harbour desires for revenge, we know that in the end we'd harm ourselves far more than her and anyway, we are not animals and are incapable of acting as such. justice is our only hope.

 

[frenchvixen]

no she's not the first but she is the most arrogant. perhaps this great anger is a consequence of casey not just being so unmoved by what she has done, but rather so cheerful and swaggering whenever we see her, and our thirst for blood is so great b/c we know, deep down, that we could never bring ourselves to exact the kind of thoughts of revenge that this individual has engendered in us. maybe there's even an unspoken fear inside us, that all she has done may somehow go unpunished and such an idea, in itself, could push anger to fury.
casey feels no guilt, she never will. we can't count on that to exact our pound of flesh. she won't fill her long days w/ sorrow over all she has ruined and a lost life she had no right to take, nor be haunted by the magnitude of her crime and the innocence of it's tiny victim; so trusting and loving and dead.
i'd like hannibal lecter to spend some time alone w/ her. i'd like to see the smirking face and gleeful little eyes pale w/ horror as she realizes what she's locked in a room w/ ... and then i think i'd like to hear her scream for a little while. destroy that happy face and disquiet the unthinking mind w/ a terror strong enough to last a lifetime, and in that moment i would feel a very great sense of satisfaction.
do i feel guilty for having such a desire? no.
would i do it? HELL NO! why? b/c while i can think about it, unless there was some exceptional circumstance, like war or self defence or the defence of those i love, i could never bring myself to in any way destroy another human being.

i'm not casey anthony and my guilt for having acted like a monster would haunt me forever.
that's why i need justice so badly, perhaps why we all do, b/c even though we may harbour desires for revenge, we know that in the end we'd harm ourselves far more than her and anyway, we are not animals and are incapable of acting as such. justice is our only hope.

Very well said Eddeva. I like the "Hannibal Lecter" visual.

 

[Rumpole]

Everything we have been told, (a dead 2 y.o. baby, duct tape, chloroform, 31 days) everything that has been alluded to (gparents rx bottles, gas cans, pool chemicals, pesticides). How does a civilized society find an appropriate punishment to all this?

What will suffice as "Justice" for Caylee? I'm glad it's not up to me to decide because I honestly can't think of a legal sentence that fits this crime.

There really is no way I can see to match punishment to this crime.
When I see past my anger, I really don't want KC to be physically or mentally tortured.
Really just to have her locked away is the most likely punishment. For a normal person the internal remorse would be significant, but I see none in KC.

 

[FX Wiz]

Check this out. It shows where KC is stayin!
http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/DPKDLeUFuaX5aW0xz5iUSQ?select=saQ0NWXY2hIScZwmyVlbXw

 

[Melanie]

I found myself wondering why am I so blood thirsty for this woman to be punished. I am starting to feel embarrassed about my behavior when KC has a hearing or when I hear bad news for the defense. This is not the first time that someone has committed such a horrible crime but what is it about KC that makes us act in a way that looks like revenge instead of justice?

IMHO I think it was because Caylee was such a precious little baby who was never wanted or loved by her bio mom (IMHO). Instead of killing her, she could have done a different other things. Unless there's a bombshell at the trial that proves otherwise, I believe she''s guilty and want to see justice for Caylee. Heck, they haven't even buried the poor child yet, and want a family reunion in jail.

I think everything this family does makes me angry and sometimes I just have to back away or I just get too angry at the evil-doer.

Best,

Melanie

 

[Melanie]

The fact she turned out a daughter like Casey should make CA an immediate, hands-down unfit mother!

I don' t know if I agree with that - sometimes babies are born with a different switch. My mom raised 4 beautiful well behaved children (well, lets make that three). One a doc, one a court deputy, me . My sister was a bad seed from day one and gave my mom grief until she moved out. She used to lock me in the closet, jumped out the window to meet boys. Cleaned out an empty bleach bottle and threatened my mom with suicide (of course mom thought it was bleach). My mom tried everything.

OTOH, my mother was no Cindy. She had my sister arrested, sent her off to other homes - hoping a different environment would help. Finally let her marry her boyfriend when she got pg at a very young age.

I believe that most mother's do their best. KC was a bad seed and I can't put all the blame on Cindy. Cindy''s crime is she is a huge enabler, but that doesn't mean anything Cindy could have done would change the circumstances we're looking at today.

Best,

Melanie

 

[mikeysmommom]

I can't speak for anyone else. The most severe punishment is off the table (the DP). So, at most, if Casey is found guilty and sentenced to the full weight of the law, she can serve her entire life in prison with no possibility of ever getting out. At this stage, THIS is the MOST EXTREME punishment our law allows.

Let's examine what that's like in Florida prison:

1. Prisoner will get food, clothing and shelter.
2. Prisoner will be in an air-conditioned area (cell if solitary). This is considered "comfortable" compared with our Florida poor who cannot afford air-conditioning.
3. Prisoner will get hygenic needs met (showers, haircuts, grooming).
4. Prisoner is able to marry.
5. Prisoner is able to communicate with friends and family (have visits, mail and phone calls).
6. Prisoner is able to watch TELEVISION, have radios, etc.
7. Prisoner is able to get high school degree and higher level education.
8. Prisoner is able to have REC time (weight train, shoot hoops, etc.).
9. Prisoner is able to have decent medical care (example: dental care, any necessary surgery, medical needs met). I know of PLENTY of Florida people (lower middle class) who currently have dental work to be done who cannot afford it.
10. Prisoner is able to socialize with other prisoners (I'm sure they manage to form relationships, have sex, etc.).

Is this a cruel life? I don't think the totality of 1-10 smacks of cruel or unusual punishment. In fact, it's pretty much giving the prisoner everything that one would have (middle class existence) outside of the prison without having to do anything (other than commit the crime) to attain these privileges. I think they give the prisoners more and more perks not only because of their "rights" but because it tends to keep the prisoners "happier" and "calmer" (example: Television). In school I took many courses on law enforcement, criminal justice, etc., and the people who worked at the prisons (who were working on THEIR degrees) said it was hell when the prisoners could not get their TV. I guess these perks are like an opiate to many.

I can see why WS'ers who may be having trouble paying their own bills in this economy are rubbed wrong by hearing about the air-conditioning, color tv (wonder if it is also High Def), cable, dental care, ability to attain a college education, and so on, that is provided to our Florida prisoners.

It's a far cry from Cool Hand Luke (busting big rocks into smaller rocks) and society knows it.

One reason the State metes out the punishment is because it is not supposed to be "personal" (i.e., revenge). There are many theories of crime and punishment and I'll not bore ya to death with them.

My Opinion: I don't think we should torture our prisoners. But I also don't think they should be entitled to privileges of the middle class without working for those privileges. I don't think it should be GAOL but I think if the prisoners want "perks" we should come up with a way for them to be productive to society. I think prison should be a place where they do not want to return! I don't think it should be a "comfortable" time-out. Imagine putting your child in "time-out" in a room with a WII, Playstation, Cable TV, friends to play with, food to eat, etc. What good is it doing?

So basically she will be a freeloader on the state instead of her family.Only thing that will change is no more nights at the bars, no more cell phone ,text messages,and no more computer.I agree prison is not suppose to be so comfortable, and they should be put to work making something to help our economy and pay for the stay.

 

[mikeysmommom]

I do not feel it is revenge, but feel spending life in prison is the only way for Caylee to have justice.

 

[TinaD]

I don't often post in this forum, as Cayley's case isn't at all high profile over here, but I do read in here often to keep in touch. If KC is found guilty, what are her chances of surviving in prison? I'm guessing she would have to be kept in solitary confinement to protect her from the other prisoners, and even then, things can mysteriously happen, particularly if a guard looks the other way.

 

[Ripley007]

I don' t know if I agree with that - sometimes babies are born with a different switch. My mom raised 4 beautiful well behaved children (well, lets make that three). One a doc, one a court deputy, me . My sister was a bad seed from day one and gave my mom grief until she moved out. She used to lock me in the closet, jumped out the window to meet boys. Cleaned out an empty bleach bottle and threatened my mom with suicide (of course mom thought it was bleach). My mom tried everything.

OTOH, my mother was no Cindy. She had my sister arrested, sent her off to other homes - hoping a different environment would help. Finally let her marry her boyfriend when she got pg at a very young age.

I believe that most mother's do their best. KC was a bad seed and I can't put all the blame on Cindy. Cindy''s crime is she is a huge enabler, but that doesn't mean anything Cindy could have done would change the circumstances we're looking at today.

Best,

Melanie

Yes, agree, some babies are born "with a different switch". Ideally, the parents of said such baby should recognize this and adjust their parenting accordingly...
And agree that "most mother's do their best".
And agree that KC was a "BAD SEED". Did CA ever try to change KC from Bad to good? If CA was always in denial then this question is a non-sequitor.
Still, bad upbringing aside, the ONLY question that matters is "Did KC know the difference between right and wrong"? I believe there can be NO DOUBT that she did. Therefore, no matter how lame or ineffective or horrid her upbringing by GA & CA was, they did manage to raise this girl to adulthood "knowing the difference between right and wrong". If she didn't want Caylee, she had multiple choices to choose from before choosing the bottom choice, murder.

 

[JustJax]

To me this would be a fate worse than death. To have no creature comforts, no contact with loved ones, no privacy 24/7. If this was all I had to look forward to I'd be announcing my guilt to anyone who would listen and beg for the needle and eternal sleep.

Very modern looking jail, looks clean and efficient, to know this is all she has had for the last 6 mos is chilling. To know it's all she has to look forward to is mind numbing. For Geo and Cindy to see this is a little disturbing.

Me too. I have always had a thing about doing my "big job" in the comfort of my own home to the point that my body has not always cooperated on vacations.
I hope she has the same problem and gets huge 'roids. (mybad?)

 

[Rumpole]

Hehe, I don't really feel guilty, I just thought it made a good segway back on topic.
:crazy:

what's the topic?

Oh yea! No I don't feel guilty about wanting to see KC punished.

I don't think too many think she can be "helped" or rehabilitated and I sense a lot more than just wanting to keep her locked away to protect society in the future. I think most want to see KC punished and in this case "Justice" requires that KC suffer?

 

[FX Wiz]

Thats the thing, if one stays in solitaire to be safe from others, one usually forms a sort of dementia from the seclusion, on the other hand, if one joins the general pop in prison as a target, it can be hazardous to ones health.

 

[ecs5298]

Thats the thing, if one stays in solitaire to be safe from others, one usually forms a sort of dementia from the seclusion, on the other hand, if one joins the general pop in prison as a target, it can be hazardous to ones health.

I'm personally not seeing a problem with either scenario but I'm kind of leaning to the general population solution. Just to have her know true fear as she moves amongst the "Big Bertha's" and "Large Marges" of the Florida Department of Corrections finer institutions.

 

[Rumpole]

Thats the thing, if one stays in solitaire to be safe from others, one usually forms a sort of dementia from the seclusion, on the other hand, if one joins the general pop in prison as a target, it can be hazardous to ones health.

Both sound fine to me!

 

[jon_burrows]

To me this would be a fate worse than death. To have no creature comforts, no contact with loved ones, no privacy 24/7. If this was all I had to look forward to I'd be announcing my guilt to anyone who would listen and beg for the needle and eternal sleep.

Very modern looking jail, looks clean and efficient, to know this is all she has had for the last 6 mos is chilling. To know it's all she has to look forward to is mind numbing. For Geo and Cindy to see this is a little disturbing.

I never realized how bad prison would be until I visited Alcatraz and the West Virginia Penitentiary. Although they are not modern and are currently tourist attractions, the thought of being locked in those tiny cells was horrific. I'm not claustrophobic (at least I didn't think I was) until I walked in a cell. I instantly wanted out of there. I don't know how anyone can live like that and not go crazy.

I don't care how many snickers or pork rinds Casey orders, she is miserable. Eating all her meals next to a toilet. Having to sit on a bed all day or a tiny slab having people walk by knowing they are going home and she's not. It's what killers deserve but absolutely nothing like the cushy life she had before.

 

[LCoastMom]

I never realized how bad prison would be until I visited Alcatraz and the West Virginia Penitentiary. Although they are not modern and are currently tourist attractions, the thought of being locked in those tiny cells was horrific. I'm not claustrophobic (at least I didn't think I was) until I walked in a cell. I instantly wanted out of there. I don't know how anyone can live like that and not go crazy.

I don't care how many snickers or pork rinds Casey orders, she is miserable. Eating all her meals next to a toilet. Having to sit on a bed all day or a tiny slab having people walk by knowing they are going home and she's not. It's what killers deserve but absolutely nothing like the cushy life she had before.

I hear you. I think those cells, especially the old, darker ones could make anyone claustrophobic, rapidly.

But this is almost worse with the bright colors and the buzz from artificial lights. (That buzz drives me nuts) Makes it look like a hospital more than a jail. Very sterile looking.

 

[KeysBreeze]

I can't speak for anyone else. The most severe punishment is off the table (the DP). So, at most, if Casey is found guilty and sentenced to the full weight of the law, she can serve her entire life in prison with no possibility of ever getting out. At this stage, THIS is the MOST EXTREME punishment our law allows.

Let's examine what that's like in Florida prison:
1. Prisoner will get food, clothing and shelter.
2. Prisoner will be in an air-conditioned area (cell if solitary). This is considered "comfortable" compared with our Florida poor who cannot afford air-conditioning.
3. Prisoner will get hygenic needs met (showers, haircuts, grooming).
4. Prisoner is able to marry.
5. Prisoner is able to communicate with friends and family (have visits, mail and phone calls).
6. Prisoner is able to watch TELEVISION, have radios, etc.
7. Prisoner is able to get high school degree and higher level education.
8. Prisoner is able to have REC time (weight train, shoot hoops, etc.).
9. Prisoner is able to have decent medical care (example: dental care, any necessary surgery, medical needs met). I know of PLENTY of Florida people (lower middle class) who currently have dental work to be done who cannot afford it.
10. Prisoner is able to socialize with other prisoners (I'm sure they manage to form relationships, have sex, etc.).

Is this a cruel life? I don't think the totality of 1-10 smacks of cruel or unusual punishment. In fact, it's pretty much giving the prisoner everything that one would have (middle class existence) outside of the prison without having to do anything (other than commit the crime) to attain these privileges. I think they give the prisoners more and more perks not only because of their "rights" but because it tends to keep the prisoners "happier" and "calmer" (example: Television). In school I took many courses on law enforcement, criminal justice, etc., and the people who worked at the prisons (who were working on THEIR degrees) said it was hell when the prisoners could not get their TV. I guess these perks are like an opiate to many.

I can see why WS'ers who may be having trouble paying their own bills in this economy are rubbed wrong by hearing about the air-conditioning, color tv (wonder if it is also High Def), cable, dental care, ability to attain a college education, and so on, that is provided to our Florida prisoners.

It's a far cry from Cool Hand Luke (busting big rocks into smaller rocks) and society knows it.

One reason the State metes out the punishment is because it is not supposed to be "personal" (i.e., revenge). There are many theories of crime and punishment and I'll not bore ya to death with them.

My Opinion: I don't think we should torture our prisoners. But I also don't think they should be entitled to privileges of the middle class without working for those privileges. I don't think it should be GAOL but I think if the prisoners want "perks" we should come up with a way for them to be productive to society. I think prison should be a place where they do not want to return! I don't think it should be a "comfortable" time-out. Imagine putting your child in "time-out" in a room with a WII, Playstation, Cable TV, friends to play with, food to eat, etc. What good is it doing?

From the FL Dept. of corrections website: Misconceptions about Florida Prisons:
http://www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/myths.html

2. "Inmates have cable television and satellite dishes."

There are no correctional facilities with cable television. The 33 prisons that have satellite dishes use them for staff training as part of the Corrections Distance Learning Network (CDLN). The CDLN saves money by training staff throughout the state simultaneously. Most prisons have televisions available to inmates for use when inmates are not working. The televisions are located in dormitory dayrooms for group viewing. Most of the department's televisions were paid for by proceeds from sales to inmates from the inmate canteens. However, state law now prohibits the purchase of televisions for recreational purposes.

6. "Prisons are air-conditioned."

Only ten of the major state-managed prisons in Florida have air-conditioning in some portion of the facility housing inmates, and many of these are located in South Florida. The following institutions have air-conditioning in the areas indicated: Lancaster C.I. (confinement area); Union C.I. (13 dorms); Youthful Offender institution Brevard C.I. (all dorms); Lake C.I. and Zephyrhills C.I. (a/c installed in Mental Health areas in 1997 at Lake C.I. and 1995 at Z.C.I.); female institutions Broward C.I., Hillsborough C.I. and Homestead C.I. (all dorms); Dade C.I. (Mental Health area) and Charlotte C.I. (Mental Health area air conditioned in FY 1994-95) The five Florida prison facilities built under the privatization contract are also air-conditioned.

 

[Rumpole]

The question is should anybody feel guilty about wanting KC punished. I would say NO!

And I think the point Theonly 1 is making is that is far from inhumane treatment in the florida sysyem. I would agree, even if there are doubts about all getting air con and cable.
When I stop and think I don't want KC tortured or treated inhumanely - That reflects badly on society, so it's ok even if the conditions are relatively comfortable.

What I would like, and sadly I see no sign of it happening, is for KC to be aware of what she has done, feel remorse, and suffer through that. No sign of it so far.