Richard Allen Welch, Sr.- A Person of Interest

[Steely Dan]

Here is what my post stated:
(Quote) As with his cousin, Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr. his criminal history after 1975 is not legally germane to the case of the Lyon sisters, but it certainly makes one wonder about his upbringing, his youth experiences, and his later life choices. (Unquote).

Thank you for restating my point.

While Thomas Teddy Welch, Jr. has not been named by MCP as a "Person of Interest", it is quite obvious from their case summary documents to the judge that he was "named" by none other than his cousin Lloyd Welch as being an eyewitness to the abduction of the Lyon Sisters.

Lloyd might be full of feces up to his eyeballs and lying about everything - or he might be telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth for the first time in his life - but you cannot pick and choose items from his statements like ordering ala carte at a restaurant and then interpret them in a forum such as this to determine guilt or innocence of anyone.

On the same token, consider the task before any prosecutor trying to present evidence obtained as a result of anything Lloyd told police. They cannot say, "here are the facts" and ignore that Lloyd named Thomas as being present that fateful day.

The fact is that if ANYONE is going to be prosecuted for any crimes involving the Lyon sisters - based on anything originating from Lloyd's statements - little Thomas is going to be considered a crucial witness. His reliability and veracity as a witness will be questioned very closely and his criminal and civil court record will most certainly be brought into it.

No matter what Thomas might or might not have done personally on 25 March 1975 (when he was eleven years old) it is highly doubtful that as a young boy, he would be charged with anything. As I stated in my earlier post, NOTHING that he did AFTER that date is germane to what happened to the Lyon sisters.

Take this discussion one step further and consider that in our legal system, NOTHING that Lloyd Welch has done SINCE 25 March 1975 could be considered as germane to the case at hand or introduced in court if Lloyd is to be charged with abduction of the Lyon sisters.

However, if Lloyd is to be brought in to court as a WITNESS against another (like his uncle Dick Welch), then Lloyd's life of crime and problems with truth telling will be questioned very closely.

It is indeed a sad reality that violent criminals walk free so often because of the constraints of our judicial system.

BBM

I respectfully disagree. Criminals will often mix in truths with their lies. So it's incumbent on people to separate the chaff from the wheat. This forum is set up to discuss the information on the crime and to speculate on what may or may not have happened. JMO

 

[steveP120]

Here is what my post stated:
(Quote) As with his cousin, Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr. his criminal history after 1975 is not legally germane to the case of the Lyon sisters, but it certainly makes one wonder about his upbringing, his youth experiences, and his later life choices. (Unquote).

Thank you for restating my point.

While Thomas Teddy Welch, Jr. has not been named by MCP as a "Person of Interest", it is quite obvious from their case summary documents to the judge that he was "named" by none other than his cousin Lloyd Welch as being an eyewitness to the abduction of the Lyon Sisters.

Lloyd might be full of feces up to his eyeballs and lying about everything - or he might be telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth for the first time in his life - but you cannot pick and choose items from his statements like ordering ala carte at a restaurant and then interpret them in a forum such as this to determine guilt or innocence of anyone.

On the same token, consider the task before any prosecutor trying to present evidence obtained as a result of anything Lloyd told police. They cannot say, "here are the facts" and ignore that Lloyd named Thomas as being present that fateful day.

The fact is that if ANYONE is going to be prosecuted for any crimes involving the Lyon sisters - based on anything originating from Lloyd's statements - little Thomas is going to be considered a crucial witness. His reliability and veracity as a witness will be questioned very closely and his criminal and civil court record will most certainly be brought into it.

No matter what Thomas might or might not have done personally on 25 March 1975 (when he was eleven years old) it is highly doubtful that as a young boy, he would be charged with anything. As I stated in my earlier post, NOTHING that he did AFTER that date is germane to what happened to the Lyon sisters.

Take this discussion one step further and consider that in our legal system, NOTHING that Lloyd Welch has done SINCE 25 March 1975 could be considered as germane to the case at hand or introduced in court if Lloyd is to be charged with abduction of the Lyon sisters.

However, if Lloyd is to be brought in to court as a WITNESS against another (like his uncle Dick Welch), then Lloyd's life of crime and problems with truth telling will be questioned very closely.

It is indeed a sad reality that violent criminals walk free so often because of the constraints of our judicial system.

I doubt it's the "first" time Lloyd ever told the truth, but in the unusual case where Lloyd is telling the truth, the obvious question is why hasn't Thomas come forward to confirm Lloyd's (unlikely) true story. Here, Thomas's background could be useful in my opinion.

The most innocent explanation would be that Thomas forgot the car ride with the two girls within a week or forgot what the girls looked like enough to connect them to the Lyon sisters in the news.

A less innocent explanation would be that Thomas remembered the car ride, but when he brought it up to his parents or relatives, as a 10-year-old would before calling the police, they told him the girls were some friends' daughters; many kids look alike.

Other explanations would be that like inner-city youth today or the counter-culture of the 70's, cooperating with the police was discouraged. Thomas, after turning 18, does seem to have some, minor?, problems with the law.

The worst case, for Thomas, would be if even if not a serious criminal at age 10, turned into one at 18 and his uncle knew this and held this over him to keep quite. Of course by now, the statute of limitations would have long since expired on all but the most serious crimes.

 

[siriunsun]

Here is what my post stated:
(Quote) As with his cousin, Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr. his criminal history after 1975 is not legally germane to the case of the Lyon sisters, but it certainly makes one wonder about his upbringing, his youth experiences, and his later life choices. (Unquote).

Thank you for restating my point.

While Thomas Teddy Welch, Jr. has not been named by MCP as a "Person of Interest", it is quite obvious from their case summary documents to the judge that he was "named" by none other than his cousin Lloyd Welch as being an eyewitness to the abduction of the Lyon Sisters.

Lloyd might be full of feces up to his eyeballs and lying about everything - or he might be telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth for the first time in his life - but you cannot pick and choose items from his statements like ordering ala carte at a restaurant and then interpret them in a forum such as this to determine guilt or innocence of anyone.

On the same token, consider the task before any prosecutor trying to present evidence obtained as a result of anything Lloyd told police. They cannot say, "here are the facts" and ignore that Lloyd named Thomas as being present that fateful day.

The fact is that if ANYONE is going to be prosecuted for any crimes involving the Lyon sisters - based on anything originating from Lloyd's statements - little Thomas is going to be considered a crucial witness. His reliability and veracity as a witness will be questioned very closely and his criminal and civil court record will most certainly be brought into it.

No matter what Thomas might or might not have done personally on 25 March 1975 (when he was eleven years old) it is highly doubtful that as a young boy, he would be charged with anything. As I stated in my earlier post, NOTHING that he did AFTER that date is germane to what happened to the Lyon sisters.

Take this discussion one step further and consider that in our legal system, NOTHING that Lloyd Welch has done SINCE 25 March 1975 could be considered as germane to the case at hand or introduced in court if Lloyd is to be charged with abduction of the Lyon sisters.

However, if Lloyd is to be brought in to court as a WITNESS against another (like his uncle Dick Welch), then Lloyd's life of crime and problems with truth telling will be questioned very closely.

It is indeed a sad reality that violent criminals walk free so often because of the constraints of our judicial system.

Did it ever occur to you that Thomas Jr. MIGHT have tried to come forward? Did it ever occur to you that authorities might have blown off every word he said, because.....perchance......he only knew part of the story, but not all? If that's the case, there will be enough character assassination in court and on other websites, not to mention in person. Don't you think testifying, and doing the right thing, will be easier if he is NOT tried in the media, along with any ADULT who becomes an actual DEFENDENT? How would you like to grow up in a family of insane people with criminal tendencies?

And.....to make matters even more heartbreaking, Maryland had a tendency at that point in history to side with parents or other grownups in a family and against children, making it even harder to testify against parents. Maryland courts also had policies against family members testifying against each other; I don't know if that's still the case, but I do know it was in 1975.

In your experience, are family criminals generally nice about children who want to testify? Or do children who have already witnessed murders tend to believe uncles and older cousins when they are told that the same thing will happen to them if they "open their mouths"? Think about it.

 

[siriunsun]

Quote Originally Posted by WaynezWorld View Post

Richard, I am totally lost on the connection between Thomas Teddy Welch, Jr. and Leonard W. Kraisel.

Can you elaborate or link, please? Thanks.
Summaries of Maryland Judiciary Court proceedings can be viewed on - line. Here is a link to that website.

LINK:





There's nothing there to suggest that Jr. "lost custody" of his kids.

The biggest reference to Kraisel actually involves Jr. testifying AGAINST Kraisel. Looks to me like Jr. was trying to do the right thing, and make the world a safer, better place for his children, not the reverse.

 

[siriunsun]

BBM

I respectfully disagree. Criminals will often mix in truths with their lies. So it's incumbent on people to separate the chaff from the wheat. This forum is set up to discuss the information on the crime and to speculate on what may or may not have happened. JMO

I so agree with you! And if you look at Thomas Jr.'s criminal history, it's really nothing special, and there are no felonies. I don't think a jury is going to care if he smoked pot in the past. I do think a jury will care about an eleven year old forced to keep horrible family secrets for forty years. Could his family have threatened him with the same crap that's starting to go on right here: "We'll bring ALL your dirty laundry out and air it publicly! We'll make sure you get accused of something and go to jail!" Do you suppose anyone, over the years, said things like that to him? What happens to someone who wants to go straight on a crooked family?

 

[steveP120]

Did it ever occur to you that Thomas Jr. MIGHT have tried to come forward? Did it ever occur to you that authorities might have blown off every word he said, because.....perchance......he only knew part of the story, but not all? If that's the case, there will be enough character assassination in court and on other websites, not to mention in person. Don't you think testifying, and doing the right thing, will be easier if he is NOT tried in the media, along with any ADULT who becomes an actual DEFENDENT? How would you like to grow up in a family of insane people with criminal tendencies?

I think Thomas, from other posts here, did come forward and testify in other cases, but on the the Lyon sisters case, Thomas denies that the car ride happen and there is anything to come forward with.

Of course it's possible that just like I could not name a fraction of the kids I was in a car with decades ago, Thomas just forgot the trip. Thomas does seem to be denying the trip with such certainty that either he has a great memory or he never got rides with Lloyd or his uncle Ralph.

But it does seem too close to guilt by association by linking someone with a more serious criminal.

 

[siriunsun]

I think Thomas, from other posts here, did come forward and testify in other cases, but on the the Lyon sisters case, Thomas denies that the car ride happen and there is anything to come forward with.

Of course it's possible that just like I could not name a fraction of the kids I was in a car with decades ago, Thomas just forgot the trip. Thomas does seem to be denying the trip with such certainty that either he has a great memory or he never got rides with Lloyd or his uncle Ralph.

But it does seem too close to guilt by association by linking someone with a more serious criminal.

Did Thomas Jr. deny the car ride? Is there a link to anything he actually said about this case, so far, to investigators?

 

[steveP120]

Did Thomas Jr. deny the car ride? Is there a link to anything he actually said about this case, so far, to investigators?

It's in the Washington Post article:
That opinion is shared by another relative, Thomas Welch Jr., a family member who Lloyd Welch said was in the car during the kidnapping, according to the affidavits. In an interview Friday, Thomas Welch Jr. denied being in the car and said he was 10 1 /2 at the time. “I haven’t done anything,” he said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...dc5a4c-b872-11e4-a200-c008a01a6692_story.html

It's only speculation on my part, but it's possible that Thomas, while not being in the abduction car might know some other information such as if Lloyd or Richard were involved some "Unsettling interactions" at Wheaton Plaza at the time
http://www.csnwashington.com/article/unsettling-interaction-mall-after-girls-vanished-1975
or if Richard and his wife got into a huge fight around the same time.

 

[writable]

The most innocent explanation would be that Thomas forgot the car ride with the two girls within a week or forgot what the girls looked like enough to connect them to the Lyon sisters in the news.

A less innocent explanation would be that Thomas remembered the car ride, but when he brought it up to his parents or relatives, as a 10-year-old would before calling the police, they told him the girls were some friends' daughters; many kids look alike.

Doubtful that Thomas could fail to remember being in a car with the Lyon sisters on that day (or being in a car with two unfamiliar girls), as the missing Lyon girls case gripped the entire town/region at the time. I'm reading online news stories on the case, and reader comments by local residents universally state things like "I will never forget that day (the Lyon sisters disappeared)" or "That day is seared in my memory forever", etc.

 

[Richard]

I so agree with you! And if you look at Thomas Jr.'s criminal history, it's really nothing special, and there are no felonies. I don't think a jury is going to care if he smoked pot in the past. ....

The woman whom Thomas Welch attacked and battered on several occasions would probably disagree with you.

There are charges of Assult and Battery (felonies), Violating Protective Orders, and Violating Probation. Driving while intoxicated put others in great danger. And several drug offenses. I wouldn't characterize his record as "nothing special" or just a few minor infractions.

He is not some innocent kid who has been knocking at MCP's door for the past 40 years to try and help with the Lyon case. It is possible that he doesn't know anything about it, but there is no indication that he has ever come forward with information, as you suggest.

If you want to see a relatively clean legal record, check out that of Richard Welch.

 

[siriunsun]

The woman whom Thomas Welch attacked and battered on several occasions would probably disagree with you.

There are charges of Assult and Battery (felonies), Violating Protective Orders, and Violating Probation. Driving while intoxicated put others in great danger. And several drug offenses. I wouldn't characterize his record as "nothing special" or just a few minor infractions.

He is not some innocent kid who has been knocking at MCP's door for the past 40 years to try and help with the Lyon case. It is possible that he doesn't know anything about it, but there is no indication that he has ever come forward with information, as you suggest.

If you want to see a relatively clean legal record, check out that of Richard Welch.

She hasn't disagreed with me. She had her day in court. Maryland has a history of not taking family matters seriously, and that word, "family" is probably yet another reason that......ahem.......disgruntled relatives will not have much recourse to use that case to throw Thomas Jr. under the bus, should he have any relevant testimony. Whatever Richard did or didn't do in Maryland, the behaviors of his children speaks volumes. Look, for yourself, at his son's record. But.....that has nothing to do with the Lyon sisters.

Richard; how would YOU know whose door Thomas Jr. has knocked on for the past 40 years? I only posed that thought as a suggestion. You came back with an undeserved attack on a witness's character, and bizarre comparison of Thomas Jr. and his uncle! Whatever for?

 

[siriunsun]

Doubtful that Thomas could fail to remember being in a car with the Lyon sisters on that day (or being in a car with two unfamiliar girls), as the missing Lyon girls case gripped the entire town/region at the time. I'm reading online news stories on the case, and reader comments by local residents universally state things like "I will never forget that day (the Lyon sisters disappeared)" or "That day is seared in my memory forever", etc.

How would you know if the two girls were unfamiliar? And as another commenter pointed out, he may not have even been in the car. If he was, an it was "seared in his memory forever", why is that? Whose fault would that be?

 

[steveP120]

Doubtful that Thomas could fail to remember being in a car with the Lyon sisters on that day (or being in a car with two unfamiliar girls), as the missing Lyon girls case gripped the entire town/region at the time. I'm reading online news stories on the case, and reader comments by local residents universally state things like "I will never forget that day (the Lyon sisters disappeared)" or "That day is seared in my memory forever", etc.

You are comparing the memory of a one-in-a-decade child double kidnapping story with the memory of being in a car with other kids.

For example, given the number of people shopping, It's likely that the girls were within eyesight of one or dozens of people at any one time from the second they stepped on the property to the second they left. But very few people remember the girls at the mall, because they were just one of hundreds of people there that day and the police were not able to track the end of the girls activity because nobody was paying attention to two girls at a mall.

Of course being in a car with two girls is somewhat more memorable than seeing them at the mall, but not a must remember event. If he knew the two girls from school, which is unlikely since he lived miles away, I agree he would have remembered them. But if it was just two friends of friends, he might not recognized them from the photographs in the newspaper. People, even adults have to make an effort to remember names at parties, even if they told them their names.

 

[writable]

How would you know if the two girls were unfamiliar? And as another commenter pointed out, he may not have even been in the car. If he was, an it was "seared in his memory forever", why is that? Whose fault would that be?

I was responding to speculation that Thomas might have forgotten knowingly or unknowingly being in a car with the Lyon sisters (unknowingly, if he was unfamiliar with them). My point is that had the alleged incident taken place, it would be highly doubtful he could have forgotten about it. But I doubt the alleged incident ever did take place (the allegation that Richard Welch kidnapped the girls).

 

[writable]

You are comparing the memory of a one-in-a-decade child double kidnapping story with the memory of being in a car with other kids.

For example, given the number of people shopping, It's likely that the girls were within eyesight of one or dozens of people at any one time from the second they stepped on the property to the second they left. But very few people remember the girls at the mall, because they were just one of hundreds of people there that day and the police were not able to track the end of the girls activity because nobody was paying attention to two girls at a mall.

Of course being in a car with two girls is somewhat more memorable than seeing them at the mall, but not a must remember event. If he knew the two girls from school, which is unlikely since he lived miles away, I agree he would have remembered them. But if it was just two friends of friends, he might not recognized them from the photographs in the newspaper. People, even adults have to make an effort to remember names at parties, even if they told them their names.

Even if he was personally unfamiliar with the girls -- this is assuming the incident actually did take place -- its highly unlikely he could have failed to later recognize them after their faces were broadcast all over the local media for the next several months.

 

[beachlvr0810]

Old Cemeteries...

Burial practices today are quite different from earlier times. The usual practice from Colonial times into the 20th century was for people to be buried in family cemeteries located on private land. In many places, even though more recent legislation had been enacted to regulate cemeteries, older existing cemeteries were exempted from newer laws.

A common practice was to mark graves with wooden headboards or just field stones, which over the years have rotted away or been removed. Cemetery records usually do not exist for such family burying grounds. Also, it was common practice for slaves or free black persons to be buried in ground closely adjacent to where the white landowner's family was buried. Again, those graves are very often unmarked and not recorded anywhere.

Consider also, that a large majority of casualties in our Civil War (1861-1865) occurred in Virginia. Those soldiers were buried on battlefields, in existing small cemeteries, and in the yards of houses used as tempory field hospitals. There were more casualties during the Civil War that in all of our other conflicts and wars combined.

With all of the above considerations, it is no wonder that nobody knows all who were buried in those old cemeteries - unless it was someone they knew personally, or a relative that they were aware of.

All that said, one might consider that if someone wanted to bury a murder victim where he/she wouldn't be found, an old cemetery might be such a place. OR ... If someone wanted to lead LE on a fruitless search to direct them away from the real burial place, mentioning such a cemetery might be a devious ploy.

Very well said, Richard!

 

[steveP120]

Even if he was personally unfamiliar with the girls -- this is assuming the incident actually did take place -- its highly unlikely he could have failed to later recognize them after their faces were broadcast all over the local media for the next several months.

I think that you, like most people, are overconfident in eyewitness reports and memory. There are plenty of studies showing that memory is less accurate than people think.

I doubt that many 10-year-old kids are interested in the news, but the girls' photos were broadcast over the local news, for better or worse along with the sketch of tape recorder man (TRM) the prime suspect or person of interest at the time.

Seeing that TRM looked nothing like any of the Welches, It could easily lead one to think that the two girls were just two similar looking girls. Even if a 10-year-old figured out that Lloyd was a sketchy dirtbag with problems, I doubt he or anyone in their family thought they were kidnappers or murderers.* Cognitive dissonance leads even adults to disregard evidence inconsistent with prior beliefs. Any death is a tragedy, but you can see cognitive dissonance when the Mom of someone shot by police can't face any evidence that their son is not a good son.

* If the murder was the result of a crime gone wrong, even the criminals themselves would not think of themselves as murderers.

 

[steveP120]

Police believe the girls took a path from the neighborhood, but never made it back to the path.

"It's a winding path, goes through the woods. It would have been a normal way for kids to travel to come here,” said Hamill. “We don't believe they ever made it from the mall. We believe the actions occurred here in the area of the mall."

http://www.wset.com/story/26797749/where-are-the-lyon-sisters-retracing-their-steps

 

[simplifymylife2014]

I have to say that in reading the many posts of some of you going back and forth in an overly assertive way in many posts, you are losing your focus and causing the rest of us here reading these posts to lose our focus on the whole purpose of this website in the first place.

The majority of us should be "on the same team" so to speak in trying to help SOLVE cases.

Let's face it. Each of us have our own viewpoints and moral standards we believe.

However, at some point there has to be a give and take and LOOKING for points we CAN AGREE ON, rather than the opposite.

We all know TW2 was a minor when this happened.

However, everyone has baggage from their past, but especially when we become adults,
WE ALL HAVE FREE WILL and can make choices.

Obviously, TW2 is going to choose now, how he will handle these comments from LLW2,
as well as perhaps get legal assistance if he needs to, depending how things go.

 

[simplifymylife2014]

Does anyone know if we have available a list of things found in the search of RAW1's home in Hyattsville, Maryland?

As an example, even though RAW1 doesn't have a criminal record, perhaps knowing what was found in the home can give clues.

As an EXAMPLE ONLY:
If adult *advertiser censored* materials were found in someone's home--that is one thing,
however if CHILD *advertiser censored* literature is found, THAT IS A BIG RED FLAG-- if it found in a Person of Interest's home in a case like this with the missing children.