School Defends Serving Gin to 6th Graders

[Paladin]

For families who suffer from alcoholism, it is a very big deal. The disease can be genetically passed on. Kids with alcoholic parents have a much much higher tendancy toward alcoholism themselves. The gene is either there or it isn't. But it takes alcohol or a drug to turn it "on". Many, many kids start drinking in 6th or 7th grade. If a child of an alcololic, who has the gene for it, has not been exposed to alcohol yet & this is the first time, then the gene just got turned "on". No the kid won't get drunk from a teaspoon, but the trigger for craving could have just been activated.

As the adult child of an alcoholic who died from this disease & a recovering alcoholic myself (started at 12), with 3 small kids who also have a recovering alcoholic father ---- I have to say that I would be PI$$ED if this test were given to my kids without my express permission. NOONE has the right to give my children any kind of drug -- legal or otherwise -- without MY permission. And you can bet I would not be relaxed about it!!!!!!

Oh please, spare me the dramatics. There is no flip-switch or trigger here. It's almost as ridiculous as people arguing that they're genetically obese. To think that these children may become raging alcoholics because their parents or grandparents may be one, and they had a teaspoon diluted with water, is insane. It has more to do with environment and personality(which is there the term "hereditary alcoholism" was invented) than it does a single gene.

http://web4health.info/en/answers/add-alcohol-inherited.htm

Children of alcohol-dependent parents run a higher risk of developing an alcohol problem than other children. This has to do with three factors:
Heredity : investigations have shown that there can be a certain hereditary tendency for getting alcohol problems. This goes even more for sons of dependent fathers than for daughters. It is unknown how big the extra risk is, but children of alcohol addicts must keep in mind that they have a greater chance to develop alcohol problems. Some studies talk about a higher risk of about 50%. It is also known that certain personality characteristics, which are partly inherited, influence the risk of getting addicted. People who are often anxious, and who seek excitement in life, and who are more antisocial, will more often become alcoholists.

Wow, 50% more. This is basically saying you're either going to drink alot or you're not.

Influence of the environment : when you grow up in an environment in which people drink a lot, you can suffer from this as a child. You can feel less happy because you get less attention or because you get insecure about the sometimes unpredictable or maybe threatening behavior of your father or mother. An unhappy childhood can then play a role in the development of alcohol problems at a later age.

No argument from me here.

Habits : If your parents drink a lot, you can get used to always having alcohol everywhere. You can take over the habit to drink a lot from your parents without even thinking about it.

Same.

......................

If you're angry about this, then should fat people be upset if the school gives their kid a twinkie without their permission?

 

[mostlylurking]

Oh please, spare me the dramatics. ......
If you're angry about this, then should fat people be upset if the school gives their kid a twinkie without their permission?

Gee, thanks for compassion. My dramatics are real life. I was trying to express as a parent how and why I would have a problem with what this school did.

Giving a kid gin as a test -- whatever amount -- is a bit different than giving a twinkie to an overweight kid. However, I do have to say that if a diabetic child were given a twinkie without the parent's permission, that parent should have just as much reason to be upset.

I can swap websites with you for days over the discussions/opinions on alcoholism as a disease and what does or doesn't trigger it. However, I suspect you'd be pretty closed to hearing that side & your opinion of my experience or opinion just really doesn't matter. My opinion is how I live my life. Not how I expect others to live theirs.

On a side note -- I've only known one person with your screen name as a last name. Are you from Missouri, by chance? -- I've wondered every time I see you post.

 

[angelmom]

Some people need to relax. It was a teaspoon, diluted with water no less. It's not like the kids were walking into walls or slurring their speech like drunken sailors.

That attitude is exactly the kind I don't want anywhere near my kids. It doesn't matter how dangerous it was or wasn't; what matters is that it is illegal, against school rules, and morally wrong to do without getting permission from the parents. Anyone who throws all of those things out the window with a casual shrug has no business being responsible for the safety and wellbeing of children.

 

[Paladin]

Gee, thanks for compassion. My dramatics are real life. I was trying to express as a parent how and why I would have a problem with what this school did.

Giving a kid gin as a test -- whatever amount -- is a bit different than giving a twinkie to an overweight kid. However, I do have to say that if a diabetic child were given a twinkie without the parent's permission, that parent should have just as much reason to be upset.

On a side note -- I've only known one person with your screen name as a last name. Are you from Missouri, by chance? -- I've wondered every time I see you post.

I am from western New York.

The school in question is an Ohio charter school that emphasizes African history. I don't think they were testing the children, rather teaching them about this ceremony/rite of passage and what better way to do that than experiencing it first-hand?

Sure, if this was a state school, I think the circumstances would be different. I'm not saying charter schools should get carte blanche with the children who attend, but if you're sending your child to a school that will teach the history of Africa, you're bound to run into some ceremonies or practices that don't fall in line with our society's views.

All I'm saying is I don't think a teaspoon of gin mixed with water is going to damage a kid in any way. I also don't think the teachers or school wasn't looking out for the best interests of these kids.

 

[Paladin]

That attitude is exactly the kind I don't want anywhere near my kids. It doesn't matter how dangerous it was or wasn't; what matters is that it is illegal, against school rules, and morally wrong to do without getting permission from the parents. Anyone who throws all of those things out the window with a casual shrug has no business being responsible for the safety and wellbeing of children.

Hah, are you saying I'm not qualified to be a parent?

Edit: That article doesn't say anything about it being against school rules. It also stated that parents saw the gin bottle at the ceremony so they knew their children were being served a small amount of alcohol. Why didn't they voice any objections then or pull their kids out of the ceremony if they were so concered about the safety and wellbeing of their child? I can think of far worse things that are illegal activities that occur every day than giving a child a teaspoon of diluted liqour when their parents were present.

If you teach kids how to respect alcohol they will. Most times you'll see children sneaking around behind their parent's backs grabbing a sip here or there. I know many kids who have done it. I did it. I bet you did too.

A good parent would take this event and teach their children that alcohol isn't for them at that age, but sometimes some cultures allow it minimally and for certain reserved instances. Instead most would rather freak out without giving their child a rational reason and pique their interest in doing it even more.

 

[Nova]

There is a middle ground here: in my view, Paladin is right that this wasn't such a big deal. On the other hand, the school should have known some parents would have major problems with it and should have chosen some other liquid to represent "liquor." The church in which I was raised did it all the time with grape juice as a stand in for wine.

 

[sherri79]

I am from western New York.

The school in question is an Ohio charter school that emphasizes African history. I don't think they were testing the children, rather teaching them about this ceremony/rite of passage and what better way to do that than experiencing it first-hand?

Sure, if this was a state school, I think the circumstances would be different. I'm not saying charter schools should get carte blanche with the children who attend, but if you're sending your child to a school that will teach the history of Africa, you're bound to run into some ceremonies or practices that don't fall in line with our society's views.

All I'm saying is I don't think a teaspoon of gin mixed with water is going to damage a kid in any way. I also don't think the teachers or school wasn't looking out for the best interests of these kids.

We could have put pepper in the water," he said. "If someone is concerned about it, obviously it is not the best thing to do

that is what the leader of the school said. it was not necessary to break the law to teach them this the school did it anyway. the fact it is a charter school does not exempt it from the law about giving booze to kids. was the amount given to the kids a big deal? nope. was the fact a school thinks it is ok to do this a big deal. yes imo.when we send our kids to school we put the most important thing in our lives in their hands. we expect them to teach our kids to read and do math. we also expect they will be exposed to other cultures but in a reasonable manner. at my child's school we have world culture day. each class is given a country. the must prepare food from that country and create a report on it. all the kids meet in the lunch room where they get to taste the foods and read the reports. they have been taught with out breaking the law. amazing what a school can do when they just use common sense

 

[Paladin]

that is what the leader of the school said. it was not necessary to break the law to teach them this the school did it anyway. the fact it is a charter school does not exempt it from the law about giving booze to kids. was the amount given to the kids a big deal? nope. was the fact a school thinks it is ok to do this a big deal. yes imo.when we send our kids to school we put the most important thing in our lives in their hands. we expect them to teach our kids to read and do math. we also expect they will be exposed to other cultures but in a reasonable manner. at my child's school we have world culture day. each class is given a country. the must prepare food from that country and create a report on it. all the kids meet in the lunch room where they get to taste the foods and read the reports. they have been taught with out breaking the law. amazing what a school can do when they just use common sense

The parents were at the ceremony. They knew the alcohol was there. If it was such a big deal the parents could have done something about it then. All I can go on is what is reported in the link that was provided in the original post. From what I gather no one complained.

Everyone talks about the illegality of this. Whoop-de-do. This country has their panties in such a twist that it has to make an giant issue out of an innocuous ceremony.

I really have to ask, did most of you guys harping about this even read the article?

 

[mostlylurking]

The parents were at the ceremony. They knew the alcohol was there. If it was such a big deal the parents could have done something about it then. All I can go on is what is reported in the link that was provided in the original post. From what I gather no one complained.

Everyone talks about the illegality of this. Whoop-de-do. This country has their panties in such a twist that it has to make an giant issue out of an innocuous ceremony.

I really have to ask, did most of you guys harping about this even read the article?

Yes, I read the article. If I had been there, I would have said no my kid can not participate with that as the honesty test & I would have requested something different for the ceremony. (The ceremony as a lesson of culture is great. The more we understand the differences in other cultures, the better our society will be.) I would not have done that based on the illegality -- illegality is not really the issue for me -- though I do understand why it is an issue. I would have requested a different basis for the test based on my previously stated problems with alcohol in my family.

Charter schools are funded through public money, by the way.

 

[sherri79]

The parents were at the ceremony. They knew the alcohol was there. If it was such a big deal the parents could have done something about it then. All I can go on is what is reported in the link that was provided in the original post. From what I gather no one complained.

Everyone talks about the illegality of this. Whoop-de-do. This country has their panties in such a twist that it has to make an giant issue out of an innocuous ceremony.

I really have to ask, did most of you guys harping about this even read the article?

i read it but i have yet to understand why a school breaking the law with kids is not a big deal. if the school had let them get 1 hit off a joint it wouldn't have killed them. if the school had passed around a pipe with tobacco for 1 hit each they would have lived. there is a line a school should not cross. morals with parents may vary but the law should be a clear line the school knows it should never cross. when a school teaches kids about morals such as honesty it shouldn't use breaking the law as a example. when it teaches about not smoking you don't have the kid try a cigarette. you don't show them a picture of child *advertiser censored* to explain why strangers can be dangerous. i am not asking for a miracle. i just want teachers to use common sense.

 

[Nova]

...if the school had let them get 1 hit off a joint it wouldn't have killed them....

Maybe not. But the school's admissions department would have been buried in new applications.

 

[Rino]

i read it but i have yet to understand why a school breaking the law with kids is not a big deal. if the school had let them get 1 hit off a joint it wouldn't have killed them. if the school had passed around a pipe with tobacco for 1 hit each they would have lived. there is a line a school should not cross. morals with parents may vary but the law should be a clear line the school knows it should never cross. when a school teaches kids about morals such as honesty it shouldn't use breaking the law as a example. when it teaches about not smoking you don't have the kid try a cigarette. you don't show them a picture of child *advertiser censored* to explain why strangers can be dangerous. i am not asking for a miracle. i just want teachers to use common sense.

Are you opposed to a Catholic School providing its students with communion wine, or is your outrage selective? These kids were given the scantest amount of gin. There were only four indicating they were selected or volunteered, and parents were present and saw the gin. Also the kids spat out the gin - they never had alcohol in their little systems

 

[Nova]

Are you opposed to a Catholic School providing its students with communion wine, or is your outrage selective?

Good question. One answer is that the rules for private schools are and should be different. (Though I assume non-Catholic students wouldn't be given communion anyway.)

But I'm wondering if giving such small amounts of alcohol to minors is actually illegal. The church may fall under some sort of religious exception. But though children's cough medicine may be non-alcoholic now, it wasn't always so and even today, I doubt it's illegal to give a kid adult cough medicine.

Is it possible the amount of alcohol given must be of a certain quantity before it becomes illegal?

 

[Paladin]

i read it but i have yet to understand why a school breaking the law with kids is not a big deal. if the school had let them get 1 hit off a joint it wouldn't have killed them. if the school had passed around a pipe with tobacco for 1 hit each they would have lived. there is a line a school should not cross. morals with parents may vary but the law should be a clear line the school knows it should never cross. when a school teaches kids about morals such as honesty it shouldn't use breaking the law as a example. when it teaches about not smoking you don't have the kid try a cigarette. you don't show them a picture of child *advertiser censored* to explain why strangers can be dangerous. i am not asking for a miracle. i just want teachers to use common sense.

I guess I just disagree with the law then. I also disagree with how people interpret the law to the strictest extent possible. I think with parental supervision that children should be allowed to partake in alcoholic beverages when it involves a cultural or religious reason. In the situation presented in the original post, it is a cultural reason and the parents were present. You're more than welcome to pull your child out of the ceremony. You may save them from that massive teaspoon of gin, but you're not saving them the embarassment they'll face when they can't participate in a historical and meaningful ceremony with their friends and classmates.

I also suppose the parents who attended the ceremony and didn't object are just as culpable as the school officials, right? I think a parent (within reason, we've seen some crazy stories here at WS) has the right to decide what is good and what isn't good for their child. Do you honestly think a teaspoon of alcohol is going to send your kid into a tailspin?

If anything, I would allow them to partake it in and have an open but frank discussion about the privilege they just undertook. Explain to them the responsibility that comes along with drinking. With-holding it from your kid and telling them it's illegal and evil is just going to make them want to do it more, and when they start sneaking behind your back to get a buzz, then that's where you get your problems.

My parents diffused that potential issue when I was 15-16 and allowed me to have minimal amounts of beer in their presence. I came to learn alcohol wasn't as big of a deal as people make it out to be and I've come to respect it.

Most parents don't even breach the subject with their kids. They just tell them no, they can't have it, without giving a thoughtful reason as to why. This confuses your kids. It also tempts them to over-indulge even more. That's why you have kids OD'ing in college and when they turn 21, because it's like busting open the flood gates. You can stem the flow of irresponsibility by introducing alcohol to them in small bits along with a meaningful discussion about it. Apparently it works in other cultures, especially in Europe, where the drinking ages are 16. Alcohol is a normal occurrence, yet America has a habit of telling people they can't have something and they make it taboo, and then people abuse it even more.

 

[angelmom]

Hah, are you saying I'm not qualified to be a parent?

No. Nowhere did I say that. I said I wouldn't want that attitude around MY children.

Nothing about you personally or any children of yours at all. Read more carefully.

And, yes, I did read the article. When the head of the school admits they broke the law, that's a problem to me.

By the way, the parents who saw the gin bottle in the audience may have thought it was going to be used for a prop without the children actually tasting it. Sometimes when you watch something unfold in front of you, you are so surprised that it is actually taking place that you don't know what to do and are frozen in place. Later you think of a hundred things you might have done differently. Have you never had that experience?

And the fact that this made the news tells us that not all of the parents were okay with this.

 

[angelmom]

Are you opposed to a Catholic School providing its students with communion wine, or is your outrage selective? These kids were given the scantest amount of gin. There were only four indicating they were selected or volunteered, and parents were present and saw the gin. Also the kids spat out the gin - they never had alcohol in their little systems

Catholic students are not given wine. I will not go into further detail out of respect for the TOS. PM me if you need more details.

 

[Rino]

And, yes, I did read the article. When the head of the school admits they broke the law, that's a problem to me.

By the way, the parents who saw the gin bottle in the audience may have thought it was going to be used for a prop without the children actually tasting it. .

Parents at the graduation ceremony saw the gin bottle and knew students would be served a small amount of alcohol, Whitaker said.

Where did the school admit to breaking the law?

 

[angelmom]

I also suppose the parents who attended the ceremony and didn't object are just as culpable as the school officials, right? I think a parent (within reason, we've seen some crazy stories here at WS) has the right to decide what is good and what isn't good for their child. Do you honestly think a teaspoon of alcohol is going to send your kid into a tailspin?

If anything, I would allow them to partake it in and have an open but frank discussion about the privilege they just undertook. Explain to them the responsibility that comes along with drinking. With-holding it from your kid and telling them it's illegal and evil is just going to make them want to do it more, and when they start sneaking behind your back to get a buzz, then that's where you get your problems.

I actually do agree with you to the extent that, had the school secured permission from the parents and the school board ahead of time, then I probably would be have been okay with it. As the teacher, I would also have included in the program a description and brief history of the ceremony, along with the purpose of its demonstration.

I think if this had been done, none of the fuss would have been made. Unfortunately, it sounds like a couple of teachers got an idea and ran with it before thinking through the logistics or consequences. And they just don't have the right to do that.

 

[mostlylurking]

i read it but i have yet to understand why a school breaking the law with kids is not a big deal. if the school had let them get 1 hit off a joint it wouldn't have killed them. if the school had passed around a pipe with tobacco for 1 hit each they would have lived. there is a line a school should not cross. morals with parents may vary but the law should be a clear line the school knows it should never cross. when a school teaches kids about morals such as honesty it shouldn't use breaking the law as a example. when it teaches about not smoking you don't have the kid try a cigarette. you don't show them a picture of child *advertiser censored* to explain why strangers can be dangerous. i am not asking for a miracle. i just want teachers to use common sense.

Well said!!!

 

[southcitymom]

Good question. One answer is that the rules for private schools are and should be different. (Though I assume non-Catholic students wouldn't be given communion anyway.)

But I'm wondering if giving such small amounts of alcohol to minors is actually illegal. The church may fall under some sort of religious exception. But though children's cough medicine may be non-alcoholic now, it wasn't always so and even today, I doubt it's illegal to give a kid adult cough medicine.

Is it possible the amount of alcohol given must be of a certain quantity before it becomes illegal?

None of the laws I'm aware of quantify it. It's a legal judgment call, I believe.

Public schools are different from churches. In the Episcopal Church I was raised in, you could have the wine as during communion after you were confirmed (which could happen from about age 13 on up).

ETA: Today, I know a good many addicts who get triggered by Communion wine in the Catholic/Episcopal Churches and have to find alternative organized religious ceremonies.