Schoolboys get detention for refusing to kneel and "pray" to Allah in RE class

[becklynn]

No missed quotes. You are smart and a sweetheart.:blowkiss:

 

[Ciara]

I have my moments:dance::dance::dance:

 

[Texana]

No missed quotes. You are smart and a sweetheart.:blowkiss:

And you are, too.

As for the issue of whether it not it matters that Jesus is divine: It's the central issue that determines whether or not a church/denomination can become members of the National Council of Churches, which has by all standards fairly liberal interpretations on all other issues. It is indeed the central fact that all Christian churches and groups agree upon, although they may differ widely in all other things, this fact is essential. Churches that do not affirm the equal nature of the Holy Spirit as an equal part of the triune God are also not allowed membership. You can practice communion and baptism as you wish, you can ordain women and gays at will, you can believe in a literal or metaphorical Scriptures, but the issue of a triune God is essential in orthodox Christianity.

The esteemed C.S. Lewis said in Mere Christianity (I paraphrase slightly) that Jesus was either divine or a madman. He did not allow for other choices, he said himself that "No one comes to the Father but by me." He claimed exclusivity for himself. The early Christians recognized this most certainly, as the apostle Paul wrote that if bodily resurrection, such as the Christians claimed Jesus exhibited, was not true, they were the "most to be pitied" for their beliefs.

The adherence of early Christians to this belief was the one that made them persecuted and executed. The apostle John wrote, "In the beginning was the Word, (Greek word "logos") and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (Historians date John's gospel as possibly being as early as 50 AD (about 25 years after Jesus's death) or as late as 85 or 90 AD (about 50 or so years after his death.) Had they just followed Jesus as prophet, they would have been classified as another Jewish sect. They claimed he was god, which offended the Jewish religious establishment of the time, and they claimed other gods were false, which offended the Roman establishment of the time.

In terms of being offensive, the early Christians were equal opportunity offenders to all others.

For Christians, Jesus is central. He is an equal member of a triune God, one in nature with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

There is no way a practicing and devout Christian can bow to anything that does not recognize this belief, and be in good conscience.

The founding Fathers recognized that religion was by its very nature could be oppressive or even cruel. They knew from the various changes in monarchy in England/Great Britain that a religion dependent upon the personal beliefs of a ruler or government was likely to become an oppressive force. They had watched the humble citizens of England suffer death and deprivation for centuries based on the constant battle between Protestant and Catholic royal houses. They wanted none of that for their new country. They knew religion in and of itself not to be harmful, but religion as a weapon of authorities was a cruel and dreadful thing.

 

[Ciara]

That was a great post Texana. Its precisely that belief that would stop me bowing down to any God that is not my own so to speak.
As for the whole Catholic, Protestant, Monarchy thing....a Catholic is not allowed to be an heir to the throne to this day in England. Just thought I'd throw that in there

 

[Texana]

That was a great post Texana. Its precisely that belief that would stop me bowing down to any God that is not my own so to speak.
As for the whole Catholic, Protestant, Monarchy thing....a Catholic is not allowed to be an heir to the throne to this day in England. Just thought I'd throw that in there

HaH, not that the Protestants are bitter or anything.

I didn't know that a Catholic couldn't be heir, although I did know that the actual ruler is the Defender of the Faith in regards to the Anglican Church...

I'm only 1/3 through the biography of Mary, Queen of Scots right now. The author details every minute political maneuvering and back-and-forth of Mary.
It's fascinating but at times, it's a good read right before bed...know what I mean?

 

[Nova]

If G*d and Allah are the same, where does the Koran stand on Jesus being the son of G*d who was sent and killed to save mankind?

(the very foundation of Christianity)

In Christian terms, Islam is a heresy. (The most successful and long-lived one, BTW.) But so is the Church of Latter Day Saints. And if you're a Catholic, then I believe the Anglican and Protestant churches are also heresies.

But still the same God. Just because one group considers other believers mistaken (even to the point of damnation) doesn't mean they pray to a different deity.

The "different God" notion is a very dangerous holdover from colonialist condescension.

 

[Ciara]

HaH, not that the Protestants are bitter or anything.

I didn't know that a Catholic couldn't be heir, although I did know that the actual ruler is the Defender of the Faith in regards to the Anglican Church...

I'm only 1/3 through the biography of Mary, Queen of Scots right now. The author details every minute political maneuvering and back-and-forth of Mary.
It's fascinating but at times, it's a good read right before bed...know what I mean?

LOL Texana I always hated English history.....my passion is in irish history:crazy:
I'd be asleep in seconds if I tried to read a book like that although she was Queen of Scots

 

[Taximom]

In Christian terms, Islam is a heresy. (The most successful and long-lived one, BTW.) But so is the Church of Latter Day Saints. And if you're a Catholic, then I believe the Anglican and Protestant churches are also heresies.

But still the same God. Just because one group considers other believers mistaken (even to the point of damnation) doesn't mean they pray to a different deity.

The "different God" notion is a very dangerous holdover from colonialist condescension.

Yes, sadly, even to the point of damnation.

I still believe these boys did the right thing though.

 

[Texana]

In Christian terms, Islam is a heresy. (The most successful and long-lived one, BTW.) But so is the Church of Latter Day Saints. And if you're a Catholic, then I believe the Anglican and Protestant churches are also heresies.

But still the same God. Just because one group considers other believers mistaken (even to the point of damnation) doesn't mean they pray to a different deity.

The "different God" notion is a very dangerous holdover from colonialist condescension.

And why, respectfully speaking, do you get to be the one to decide that the "different God" is dangerous?

Who decides whether it's one God with different names, or different religions altogether?

The holdover dates not from colonial times, but from the very beginnings of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Again, the early Christians were not put to death for believing in "the same god" nor were the Moorish invasions and conquests and the Crusades the same.

If people choose to die for their faiths, then you must acknowledge that they themselves see something different from the generally accepted group practice. I find that a thing to be commended, that the individual holds to a personal standard of conscience and morals worthy of dying for.

It would be much simpler and easier for everyone if we all believed the same thing, wouldn't it?

And there in lies the danger. If you believe in the rights of the minority or the marginalized groups, surely you see the dangers in enforcing a kind of "one size fits all" religion as well.

Your belief that it's all the same god, is again, your belief, .and you are welcome to it. and I'll support it heartily.

You cannot be allowed to decide to decide whether or not we all pray to the same deity, (respectfully speaking) any more than I can be allowed to decide that you pray to the wrong deity.

It is absolutely not dangerous to hold to individual interpretations of religion, it is dangerous to hold to one truth for all interpretations.

The Inquisition by any name is still a horror.

 

[BarnGoddess]

If we allow that God, Allah, El, Elohim, Eloh, Theos, Dieu, Yahweh, etc. are all used to desigate a supreme being, then we could all basically be praying to the same "God".

Now, we need to explore the prophets and diciples and their interpretation. The Bible is accepted in Judeo-Christian worship as the basis for beliefs of Jews and Christians. The addition of the New Testament proclaims Jesus as a sub diety. The Torah spells out specific edicts of worship and daily life of Jews. The Koran was the work to spell out the life and worship those who followed Mohammed, another prophet.

The big difference is in interpretation, obviously. I don't believe there is a true way, only our personal beliefs. Given the vast differences in each of the three major religions (Christianity, Judeaism, Islam), the will of God is interpreted through those who followed a particular follower, Jesus, Moses, Mohammed. I am particularly upset these days in the various interpretations of the Koran as a violent method to control and punish peoples of the world, beginning with their own people, especially the women.

I am quoting myself, as I may have been lost as the last post on page one.

I will say that all those religions who believe in God as a supreme being, could basically be said to believe in the same God. It's the interpretation of that singular supreme being that give us the various religions.

I think the God of Abraham, is basically the God of all those who worship as Islamics, Jews and Christians. The God of the Jews are the same as the God of Christians. My ex's relatives are all Jewish and believe that Jesus was a teacher and a prophet, but not the Messiah. The Messiah has not come as yet. Christians of course believe he is the Messiah and the son of God. Jews do acknowledge Jesus as a great man. Mohammad was also considered a prophet by Islamics and God (Allah) had spoken to him and hence the Koran. As I said, the word of God was also recorded in the Talmud. All these books were written by men of the earth for various reasons of history. Even the Bible itself, a compilation of many various writings were those of man. The "church" at one point decided which ones to include and which of those to exclude. Consider it an anthology, or a book of short stories.

There is a wonderful show on History Channel, I think, about the forbidden books of the Bible. One I believe was the book of Judas. There were other books with differing stories of the creation and more detailed stories of Cain and Abel.

The Koran is a violent work in some areas, demanding worship in the mode of that dictated by Allah, interpreted by Mohammed. Others, it is peaceful.

 

[Texana]

LOL Texana I always hated English history.....my passion is in irish history:crazy:
I'd be asleep in seconds if I tried to read a book like that although she was Queen of Scots

Oh, the Irish. Being of Irish descent myself, I always blame that on my family's inability to get together peaceably.

We have a few drinks and we end up quarrelsome.

The small German side has scant chance of winning out.

My Irish ancestors came over in the 1700's. We had even then the ability to know when to cut our losses and run. :dance:

 

[Ciara]

Oh, the Irish. Being of Irish descent myself, I always blame that on my family's inability to get together peaceably.

We have a few drinks and we end up quarrelsome.

The small German side has scant chance of winning out.

My Irish ancestors came over in the 1700's. We had even then the ability to know when to cut our losses and run. :dance:

Why do you think they call us The Fighting Irish Texana. Natural Born Rebels:dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance:

 

[BarnGoddess]

Well, I'm mostly British heritage, with a touch of Scot and Welsh tossed into the soup. I love the History of the British Isles and make it a point of watching the historical series of the History of the British Empire. I need to find my mother's records that entered her into the Magna Carta Society. She said she found a connection to Queen Victoria. She also said we are decendents of a signer of the Magna Carta. I am finding more genealogy leading back to England each time I search from a proven point. I love the history of the area and would love to know more of the Irish history. I finished the "Other Boleyn Girl" and bought the movie. I didn't realize it was based on the actual family. Learn something every day.

 

[Texana]

Well, I'm mostly British heritage, with a touch of Scot and Welsh tossed into the soup. I love the History of the British Isles and make it a point of watching the historical series of the History of the British Empire. I need to find my mother's records that entered her into the Magna Carta Society. She said she found a connection to Queen Victoria. She also said we are decendents of a signer of the Magna Carta. I am finding more genealogy leading back to England each time I search from a proven point. I love the history of the area and would love to know more of the Irish history. I finished the "Other Boleyn Girl" and bought the movie. I didn't realize it was based on the actual family. Learn something every day.

Have you read the Boleyn Inheiritance? It's the sequel. It's a page turner as well. :crazy:

 

[4eyedbuzzard]

After you posted this I had a talk with my BF. It was one of the best talks we had ever had. I told him about your post and how I felt it truly made sense. He in turn told me he was only arguing because he wants me in heaven with him. He cried and I teared up. I usually never tear up but yeah I guess I cried. His whole meaning for putting pressure on me was he is afraid I won't go to heaven to be with him for eternity. He does feel like I have to follow a scripted line of living and if I do not do it God may not allow me in. Your post was dead on with this one. I asked him if he thought I would go to heaven or hell and he said I was the nicest kindest person he had ever met. I should go to heaven but he felt if I did not foolow certain "rules" I could go to hell. So we discussed the rules and do feel the same as him but not as the bible is literal. He now feels How I can be a spiritual person but not be of any faith. Gosh, making up is great isn't it? We are so much closer now, though I felt we could not be, We know each of our basic visions and they are the same.I cannot tell you what it like to have the man of your dreams have his tears drop onto you and say he loves you. Thank you for your post.

Thank you for your kind words. It's wonderful that you two are able to work through your differences.

 

[Ciara]

Thank you for your kind words. It's wonderful that you two are able to work through your differences.

And accepting each other's differences too buzzard:clap:

 

[BarnGoddess]

Have you read the Boleyn Inheiritance? It's the sequel. It's a page turner as well. :crazy:

No, I haven't. I'll have to look for it, thanks, I appreciate the heads up.

 

[becklynn]

Has anyone seen this? http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/07/sclicense.plates/index.html

South Carolina is making a state issued Christian license plate. In FL we have a Choose Life license plate. It ruffled a lot of feathers. I wish they would give everyone the same tags.

 

[kgeaux]

Allah is not "another god," He is the same god by a name from a different language. It may surprise some to consider that English isn't God's first language.

Regardless, I see no reason why schoolchildren should be forced to pray to any deity. And in fact, merely going through the motions of an alien (to you) religion might well be seen as disrespectful to followers of that religion.

I see where you are coming from, and I've heard what you are saying before, BUT Yahweh and Allah aren't just two names. The entities behind the names differ in character, also. Quite drastically. Many believers of all religions will not agree with you, because the differing characters of Yahweh and Allah lead one to believe they are indeed different entities.

I totally agree with your second paragraph......I believe this is probably just a case where an individual teacher deviated from the curriculum, at least I hope so!

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I would be so pissed off my head would most likely explode.