Sedation Of Caylee - Do you think it's common?

[Jolynna]

Now I have to wonder what the damn chloroform was used for. I see no logical reason for KC to need to knock her out for that short amount of time. Or that she would spend all the effort making it for that short of a time period of "payoff."

Exactly.

Benedryl or Nyquil are easily obtained and reputed effective babysitters. You wouldn't have to go further than THIS site to read of doctors recommending those under certain cirmcumstances.

Not once, anywhere, will you find a chloroform-soaked rag touted as a "way to get your baby to sleep through the night".

 

[wallflower67]

You can find also chloroform soaked rag references on sites about "operating on animals" or "date rape".

Those don't mention "neck breaking" on the same page, but if Casey anticipated something physical happening to Caylee and wanted to be sure Caylee wouldn't remember or talk about it...there would be a reason to "knock Caylee out" for 20 minutes or so.

That's an interesting theory. Maybe Caylee wasn't supposed to die..at leas by neck breaking. If KC could knock Caylee out for a few min so she could break cindy's neck, that would make sense.

I'm dredging my pharmacy school memories....I believe we were told that chloroform was no longer used because it doesn't last long and people were sick as a dog after waking up. We now have general anesthetics that don't last long and need constant monitoring, but they don't have the side effects...and someone under anesthesisa is constantly monitored anywayy.

In "the old movies" the perp usually knocked the victim out with a choroform soaked rag long enough to move them to the "victim storage area" (for lack of a better term!) to wait for the ransom.

 

[reefshadow]

one of the other w/s's mentioned that even though they arent supposed too, tattoo and body piercing places commonly use chloroform, when doing various body piercings. I went to website that specializes in body piercing, and I gotta tell you chloroform I gotta believe wouldnt do it for me ( Ive never seen or been around chloroform, but if I were to have something of that nature done I would want to be unconcious like with anesthesia) But I can see where kc would have had access to chloroform.

Also of interest on this website there was a blog and one of the posters that had body piercings was called "chloroform perfume"

Sorry to call you out, but that information is incorrect, or at least was just a few years ago when I quit doing tattoos. I worked as a professional tattoo artist in a tattoo/body piercing studio for almost 8 years and *never* heard of this in practice or even in theory. I went to many conventions in Washington, Idaho, Oregon, and California and never ever saw or even heard about this. In fact in Washington state studios are subject to periodic random inspections by the DOH and medical procedures such as sedation or medication are never permitted unless a practitioner is a licensed MD. The common method of pain control is "grit your teeth and bear it", LOL. In some instances a legal OTC lidocaine gel may be used applied to a piercing area before the procedure, but even this is uncommon as it doesn't work very well.

 

[reefshadow]

Now I have to wonder what the damn chloroform was used for. I see no logical reason for KC to need to knock her out for that short amount of time. Or that she would spend all the effort making it for that short of a time period of "payoff."

Yes, I think the same. In addition we do not have any evidence (yet) indicating that chloroform was used on Caylee. We don't even have the dates of the computer searches. Of course, KC is incredibly stupid, so it is possible that she used the chloroform for sedation.

Otherwise I think it's possible that the chloroform entered the trunk after Caylee's death and the decomp were underway, and somehow KC heard about chloroform for DNA cleanup and did further searches after Caylee's death.

Chloroform is easy to make (I did some searches myself, LOL) apparently it can be easily made with acetone (fingernail polish remover), chlorine bleach, and ice.

Whatever the case, we will be finding out, the evidence regarding the chloroform will play a big part in her trial.

 

[marla]

Do you suppose she taped a cloth soaked in chloroform to Caylee's mouth not knowing that it would kill her?

That could explain why and if the tape was wrapped around Caylee's head ..

 

[coltsgal]

When my son was younger, he was VERY colicky. NEVER ONCE did it cross my mind to use alcohol or drugs to calm him.

Instead, my husband or I just bathed him or rocked him or sang to him until he calmed down. Natural remedies are much more soothing, and will guarantee the safety of your child. It sometimes took hours, but that's part of being a parent.

Using drugs or alcohol to sedate your child isn't worth the few hours of quiet you'll get...you never know if you're in for a longer unexpected kind of quiet. Definitely not worth the risk.

 

[Balthazar]

I don't think the chloroform was for Caylee. It's much easier to knock a child out (or even OD a child) with liquid Benedryl or Xanax. Both of these drugs are easier to administer, longer lasting and easier to obtain. Chloroform only lasts about 15 minutes before another drop must be applied to the cloth.

Possible uses:
Chloroform is used in sexual experimentation to heighten the sexual experience. If it is huffed, apparently it makes sex seem much more intense for both partners. However, it also causes irreversible liver damage and leaves the user with a bad headache/hangover. But that has not stopped people from experimenting with it in this way.

Chloroform has been used in date rapes to subdue the victim. There was a case of this just recently in Dallas, TX.

Casey was searching for Household weapons on the internet. I have a suspicion that she may have thought she was going to have to defend herself from someone for some reason. Would that really be a surprise considering all the stealing she had done? Or the chloroform may have been intended to quickly subdue adult size victims.

None of the above would indicate lack of guilt or guilt in Caylee's demise. They are just possible uses for the chloroform and might point towards what else was going on in Casey's life at the time of Caylee's death. If you take this into consideration, it points toward a possibility of what Casey's defense might be.

This is going to be one interesting trial. IMHO.

 

[KellioPSL]

Sorry to call you out, but that information is incorrect, or at least was just a few years ago when I quit doing tattoos. I worked as a professional tattoo artist in a tattoo/body piercing studio for almost 8 years and *never* heard of this in practice or even in theory. I went to many conventions in Washington, Idaho, Oregon, and California and never ever saw or even heard about this. In fact in Washington state studios are subject to periodic random inspections by the DOH and medical procedures such as sedation or medication are never permitted unless a practitioner is a licensed MD. The common method of pain control is "grit your teeth and bear it", LOL. In some instances a legal OTC lidocaine gel may be used applied to a piercing area before the procedure, but even this is uncommon as it doesn't work very well.

reefshadow google "how common is chloroform in body piercing"

 

[Mohabi]

After four normal children (they were very active, but I never considered them hyperactive and would have NEVER given them medication of any kind to "calm them down", I slipped my Border Collie a Benadryl last week. I hoped he would finally, after 3 hours of uninterrupted strenuous activity, calm down. MISTAKE! He got his fourth wind and was bouncing off the walls for the next 2 hours.

I guess I should have given him a beer instead.

 

[reefshadow]

reefshadow google "how common is chloroform in body piercing"

I'm not finding anything that indicates that this is a normal practice. All I can say is that I've been to dozens of shops and conventions and met literally hundreds of other tattooists and piercing techs and have never, ever heard of this.

I highly doubt that anything has changed in the few years that I've been "out" of the industry.

Maybe some other WSers with tattoos and piercings can chime in on what is common in their area.

 

[wallflower67]

After four normal children (they were very active, but I never considered them hyperactive and would have NEVER given them medication of any kind to "calm them down", I slipped my Border Collie a Benadryl last week. I hoped he would finally, after 3 hours of uninterrupted strenuous activity, calm down. MISTAKE! He got his fourth wind and was bouncing off the walls for the next 2 hours.

I guess I should have given him a beer instead.

You might want to find out if benadryl is safe for dog. It probably is because other antihistamines are. I gave my dog tyenol once, not knowing that it was toxic to dogs. He was okay, but I felt stupid for just assuming!

The doggie would have probably liked a beer better! :woohoo:

 

[irishinme]

I've never heard of such a thing until this case came about.

 

[Jolynna]

You might want to find out if benadryl is safe for dog. It probably is because other antihistamines are. I gave my dog tyenol once, not knowing that it was toxic to dogs. He was okay, but I felt stupid for just assuming!

The doggie would have probably liked a beer better! :woohoo:

My dog has a prescription from the vet for benedryl. She has allergies. It is safe for dogs.

 

[Balthazar]

After four normal children (they were very active, but I never considered them hyperactive and would have NEVER given them medication of any kind to "calm them down", I slipped my Border Collie a Benadryl last week. I hoped he would finally, after 3 hours of uninterrupted strenuous activity, calm down. MISTAKE! He got his fourth wind and was bouncing off the walls for the next 2 hours.

I guess I should have given him a beer instead.

Pink Benedryl is safe for dogs. You can give 1 pink Benedryl to a 20 pound dog for allergies - per my veterinarian. She had allergies with a lot of itching and a pink muzzle and swollen watery eyes. The vet gave her a cortisone shot and told me to put her on Benedryl. The Benedryl did make her sleepy. Later on, I took her to a veterinarian allergist. She had allergy testing under twilight anesthetic and I gave her weekly allergy shots based on the outcome of the testing (she was allergic to a lot of stuff.) After 2 years of shots, her allergies subsided permanently.

 

[magic-cat]

I know very little about chloroform, so I have to ask - then - would leaving a rag soaked in chloroform not keep the child asleep? This seems to be a VERY popular theory... but is it then, impossible?

Perhaps a chloroform saturated rag placed in a strategic location in the trunk of a car with a child would work for a more lengthy sleep? I am thinking that Casey was using chloroform with some sexual partner of hers, and then the lightbulb went off and it clicked with her that she could knock out Caylee with it, and she likely started off slow and easy and then pumped up the volume over time...I have no doubts whatsoever that the monster that she IS would have had any difficulty at all sedating her child in this manner or any manner that was available to her. She is all about Casey and Caylee was throwing off her "groove" and she needed an ongoing and effective way to handle that. PLUS, she needed for Caylee not to be able to inform on her about their whereaboouts, and if you read Ricardo's statement CAREFULLY he states that Caylee and Casey would spend the nights with him frequently, and that by the time he got home "Caylee was already PUT to sleep". I have always found that an interesting choice of words...and it tells me something...it tells me she was using SOMETHING to insure that Caylee was ALWAYS asleep by the time Ricardo came home, and THAT is not happening in a strange place without her giving her SOMETHING.

 

[Jolynna]

Chloroform has to be administered a bit at a time or it is lethal. Period.

You will not find an instance anywhere of a person using it as an overnight babysitter.

Unless something is going to be physically done that you don't want the "knocked out" person to know about there are safer, longer-lasting medications in abundance.

MOO

 

[qaws]

Saw this article today and thought of this case / thread.

Some kids’ cold medicine overdoses deliberate
Report finds children overmedicated on purpose to keep them quiet

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28303376/

 

[LCoastMom]

My daughter also has severe ADHD. When she was in public school, she took 54mg of Concerta. I am home schooling this year and last year only, so I was able to give her immediate release Focalin (which lasts about 4 horus.). If she needs another dose, then she gets it. If she's done with her work or is concentrating fine then she doesn't need it.

She also has severe OCD. I didn't medicate that either...until she got suicidal at age 11. I have it too, so I know what she was going through, and I felt guilty for not treating her earlier.

Now she has very very heavy cycles and signs of endometriosis (at age 14). I did too, and it can be hereditary. So now she is also on birth control pills to control her bleeding. I hated doing it because she is so young (14), but I don't want her to find out at 25 she can't have babies because this was untreated.

I agonized each time I put her on one of these medications, because I know so many people would judge me for it. But she is quite healthy and happy right now. So I don't regret it.

Wallflower, would you question or agonize over giving your diabetic child insulin?

Don't let someone who doesn't love your kids the way you do make you question the way you express that love. Giving your child prescription medication for medical conditions that you have taken the time to educate yourself about and decisions that you have agonized over, are an expression of your love for your child. Don't let someone else make you question your love for your child!!

No one, not even the best doctors know your child the way you do. Staying involved in your child's life, educating yourself as the needs arise, loving your child because of their uniqueness are three out many ways to raise a healthy, happy child. Sounds like you are spot on!

 

[Kathleen]

Just thought of this..since chloroform is used in inhalent form, as was ether in the old days, Maybe the duct tape around the mouth kept Caylee from breathing from the mouth or crying to prevent dosing. This would prevent calling attention to Caylee and also give her sedation more quickly, I think. Remember that doctors used to recomment paregoric for fussy babies..All these can and do cause respiratory failure unless monitored constantly. Also, it the mouth was taped and she was having respiratory problems, her little nose would not have been enough to maintain a descent oxygen level..she would have done better breathing nose and mouth...Ever been short of breath and find yourself gasping or really pulling in air through nose and mouth...I think I just made myself sick thinking about this and posting it, but it surely makes sense to me! Kathleen

 

[melissa311]

Sedating with chloroform and xanax is probably not common; however, sedating with OTC medications is much more common. Cough medicine, benadryl, things of that nature. It would be hard to say how common this practice is because anyone who does this would not be forthcoming about it.