Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #5

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TexMex: Your recall is consistently sharp. I think that rules out the strap, although it is a possibility she used hers. My instinct now is that she didn't.

Regarding the sweat pants - Jodi claimed to have a white pair with a black stripe. I remember the Detective Flores' interviews very well as I thought he was outstanding. Remember her face when he asked about the sweat pants? It's worth watching that small section to see how EF toys with her. A little further on is the, "Well, enough about your cat" quip. It still tickles me - Detective Flores' flat, dry delivery.

[video=youtube;tl01kF96-10]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl01kF96-10&index=16&list=PLrAJFqIjBGeBWQ8jumn4nJ92njqRQwm0k[/video]

Sweat pant statement from 11.00 minutes in. The ones that Caylee Advocate posted are grey but Arias admits to having two pairs. She looks like she is lying - (surprise!) so that pic may be the exact ones. Then again, she lies so much, always have to filter through as much evidence as possible.

Yes...some pair of sweatpants. She could have had many pair. Pockets are usually pretty big.

Lol. My pants don't have a zipper.

Flores probably incredulous that a woman being interrogated for first degree murder is rambling on about her cat

My favorite part is when he tells her about the camera and accidental pictures
She loses her control for a minute and in trembly, low voice "really?"
 
There could have been a strap, but it was not the one that came with the camera. That one was found still in the package. Did she use hers? Very possible but she'd have to remember to take it off and with her...

CayleeAdvocate posted this pic a few pages ago

View attachment 90534

The camera is smaller than I imagined it. I've begun to wonder if she shoved it into a pocket on her jogging pants perhaps taking the first accidental pic of ceiling (testimony is camera 2-3ft off ground) . When she bent over to slit his throat it falls from the pocket. She must keep up with the camera, has to delete those photos before leaving. She picks it up and puts it back into the pocket. In the struggle of dragging the body it falls out, perhaps several times, twice taking accidental pics.

View attachment 90535

Who knows, strap or pocket? But the camera had to make it from the shower area to the hall in some way


The most likely had a gun and knife concealed somewhere on her when she began taking the shower photos. And she had the camera itself in her hands at that point.

I can't imagine she was thinking about the camera as she stabbed
him the 1st time, and it's even less likely she was thinking about the camera when he unexpectedly fought back and kept not dying quickly enough to suit her.

29 stabs and a slit throat in 2 minutes or so, right?

If the camera wasn't on a strap she would have to tossed it as she began stabbing, IMO, and that's what I always assumed she had done. JM says she still had it on her until after his throat was slit and she began to drag him.

The only reasonable explaination for that, IMO, is that she'd attached her own strap to his camera, which would have been no big deal whatsoever for her to have done.
 
I'm thinking Jodi parked her car at the airport. Then flew to Phoenix.


And she returned to Sacramento, picked up her car from the overnight lot, then drove off bikini shopping, arriving late for supper at her sister Julie's house, and while there acting strangely unmoved by the memorial, according to Julie, more interested in hooking up by phone with the man she met on the flight back, and trilling to her sister that Ryan Burns was the One, and she'd known that from the first day they met....
 
The most likely has a gun and knife concealed somewhere on her when she began taking the shower photos. And she had the camera itself in her hands at that point.

I can't imagine she was thinking about the camera as she stabbed
him the 1st time, and it's even less likely she was thinking about the camera when he unexpectedly fought back and kept not dying quickly enough to suit her.

29 stabs and a slit throat in 2 minutes or so, right?

If the camera wasn't on a strap she would have to tossed it as she began stabbing, IMO, and that's what I always assumed she had done. JM says she still had it on her until after his throat was slit and she began to drag him.

The only reasonable explaination for that, IMO, is that she'd attached her own strap to his camera, which would have been no big deal whatsoever for her to have done.

My thought is: she tells Travis the last shots will be with his eyes closed.. she's getting ready to pull the knife...she is slipping the camera into her pants pocket quietly (a strap possibly leads to her getting hit in the face by a swinging camera or him grabbing it and choking her during a struggle) while it slips into her pocket she hits shutter, 1st pic. 5:31:14

She's now in chaos for the next minute. Travis fought for his life and didn't just stay in the shower and die like she planned. He tries grabbing the knife. He's out, to the sink, hands bleeding on the vanity as she knifes him in the back, blood everywhere. He's staggering down the hall and she's following him. He slides down the wall and she goes for the throat. He's dead. She begins getting him off the carpet, down the hall. As she does the camera falls from her pocket and captures the 5:32:16 pic of her foot. Travis is dead so that threat is over. She still knows she cannot lose track of the camera. The evidence on it must be deleted. So she reaches down, picks it up and puts it back in her pocket.
She continues dragging 180 pounds back to the shower. It's difficult and again the camera falls out taking the 5:32:33 image.

it could definately have been on a strap but if it was wouldn't it have captured her hair in the photo if she was bent over, close enough for the shutter to hit the ground? Not so if falling from a pocket...
 
Great point, TexMex, about her putting the camera in her sweat pants pocket- one I never thought of. I have a Cybershot much like if not the same as Travis'; its upstairs in my desk and you are right, it is pretty small. She could easily have put it in her pocket and during the murder it fell out. I will take a pic of my camera later and try to post it as we are on our way out to a retirement dinner in a little bit. That's why I knew about the software you need to download pics to a PC. Great point. I will bet that's what happened. It would have been waist level to take the first ceiling pic at that point too. Light bulb moment for me!
 
Great point, TexMex, about her putting the camera in her sweat pants pocket- one I never thought of. I have a Cybershot much like if not the same as Travis'; its upstairs in my desk and you are right, it is pretty small. She could easily have put it in her pocket and during the murder it fell out. I will take a pic of my camera later and try to post it as we are on our way out to a retirement dinner in a little bit. That's why I knew about the software you need to download pics to a PC. Great point. I will bet that's what happened. It would have been waist level to take the first ceiling pic at that point too. Light bulb moment for me!

Plus, in the pic with her foot...her foot is planted and her leg appears straight...not leaning over...
Suggests to me that the camera was I her pocket and became dislodged while she's pulling on his arm trying to pull him back down the hall. So the camera falls out of the pocket, you know, in that chaotic pattern that cameras fall...
 
My thought is: she tells Travis the last shots will be with his eyes closed.. she's getting ready to pull the knife...she is slipping the camera into her pants pocket quietly (a strap possibly leads to her getting hit in the face by a swinging camera or him grabbing it and choking her during a struggle) while it slips into her pocket she hits shutter, 1st pic. 5:31:14

She's now in chaos for the next minute. Travis fought for his life and didn't just stay in the shower and die like she planned. He tries grabbing the knife. He's out, to the sink, hands bleeding on the vanity as she knifes him in the back, blood everywhere. He's staggering down the hall and she's following him. He slides down the wall and she goes for the throat. He's dead. She begins getting him off the carpet, down the hall. As she does the camera falls from her pocket and captures the 5:32:16 pic of her foot. Travis is dead so that threat is over. She still knows she cannot lose track of the camera. The evidence mine t must be deleted. So she reaches down, picks it up and puts it back in her pocket.
She continues dragging 180 pounds back to the shower. It's difficult and again the camera falls out taking the 5:32:33 image.

it could definately have been on a strap but if it was wouldn't it have captured her hair in the photo if she was bent over, close enough for the shutter to hit the ground? Not so if falling from a pocket...


The only points that aren't speculative, IMO, are that JM believes Travis was still alive when she began dragging him back to the bathroom, and that she still had the camera on her...iirc, he said the accidental pics were right side up, and either LE or he had experimented to figure out how high off the floor the camera was in each of the accidental shots.


As for what was said and done in the shower up until the first stab. Can't be known, and there's quite a range of opinions here on this forum for virtually every second and movement in his bathroom that day.

In broad strokes, mine are: that he didn't give her permission to take the pics, and that when she surprised him with the camera she immediately began talking to him.

She either already had the gun pointed at him, or she "soothed" him enough with flattery (and he knew he was vulnerable, naked, trapped) that he didn't immediately step out of the shower.

I think she talked at him non-stop. She said so on the stand- and I believe it anyway.

For myself I will never believe he sat down in the shower willingly. She forced him to. How? Either with the gun, OR...a whole different form of coercion.

Maybe she was telling him how good he looked for Cancun (hence her chortling in her letter to family--who knows what would have happened if he wasn't so proud of his toned body?). then starting going off, slowly at first, then not, and shortly before she tells him to sit down she points the gun. At her own head. And tells him she's going to kill herself unless he does what she tells him to do.

I've always thought he looked angry in that last photo. One interpretation is that he looks angry because he thought he was done with her and instead she is playing out her suicide drama, once again, this time going so far as to lie to him about why she's there, waiting until he's helpless to walk away or wrestle with her, and then pulling out a GUN.

JM and Flores believe that Travis was moving towards her when the first accidental photo was taken, of the ceiling. Maybe she'd thrown the gun on the floor to distract him and he was reaching for it when she stabbed him.

Who knows. One version or another. My scenario is definitely influenced by my immersion in the May 26 chat, in which she mentions suicide (no reason for me to be alive, etc) no fewer than 3 times.

I've asked and thought and asked....why the May 26 confrontation if she already planned to kill him..

Maybe...maybe she was laying the groundwork for the shower scene, so when she threatened suicide there he wouldn't find it unbelievable?
 
Plus, in the pic with her foot...her foot is planted and her leg appears straight...not leaning over...
Suggests to me that the camera was I her pocket and became dislodged while she's pulling on his arm trying to pull him back down the hall. So the camera falls out of the pocket, you know, in that chaotic pattern that cameras fall...



I defer to Geevee and Pocket's thorough sleuthing and logical take on all things camera.....just disagree with the idea that a video was taken during the slaughter.
 
(Not a trick question):

What time is it in Mesa AZ on June 4, 2008, at 9:52PM "Greenwitch" time?

Is it 4:52AM???
 
The only points that aren't speculative, IMO, are that JM believes Travis was still alive when she began dragging him back to the bathroom, and that she still had the camera on her...iirc, he said the accidental pics were right side up, and either LE or he had experimented to figure out how high off the floor the camera was in each of the accidental shots.


As for what was said and done in the shower up until the first stab. Can't be known, and there's quite a range of opinions here on this forum for virtually every second and movement in his bathroom that day.

In broad strokes, mine are: that he didn't give her permission to take the pics, and that when she surprised him with the camera she immediately began talking to him.

She either already had the gun pointed at him, or she "soothed" him enough with flattery (and he knew he was vulnerable, naked, trapped) that he didn't immediately step out of the shower.

I think she talked at him non-stop. She said so on the stand- and I believe it anyway.

For myself I will never believe he sat down in the shower willingly. She forced him to. How? Either with the gun, OR...a whole different form of coercion.

Maybe she was telling him how good he looked for Cancun (hence her chortling in her letter to family--who knows what would have happened if he wasn't so proud of his toned body?). then starting going off, slowly at first, then not, and shortly before she tells him to sit down she points the gun. At her own head. And tells him she's going to kill herself unless he does what she tells him to do.

I've always thought he looked angry in that last photo. One interpretation is that he looks angry because he thought he was done with her and instead she is playing out her suicide drama, once again, this time going so far as to lie to him about why she's there, waiting until he's helpless to walk away or wrestle with her, and then pulling out a GUN.

JM and Flores believe that Travis was moving towards her when the first accidental photo was taken, of the ceiling. Maybe she'd thrown the gun on the floor to distract him and he was reaching for it when she stabbed him.

Who knows. One version or another. My scenario is definitely influenced by my immersion in the May 26 chat, in which she mentions suicide (no reason for me to be alive, etc) no fewer than 3 times.

I've asked and thought and asked....why the May 26 confrontation if she already planned to kill him..

Maybe...maybe she was laying the groundwork for the shower scene, so when she threatened suicide there he wouldn't find it unbelievable?

I never heard JM say Travis was alive after the neck wound. Listened to his closing the other day where he reiterated Horn saying Travis would be dead in seconds after his jugular and carotid being slashed. The foot pic was taken halfway down the hall so he was dead IMO.

Also never heard Flores or JM say Travis was moving toward her at time of first accidental pic. For that to happen she'd have to have the knife in one hand and the camera in the other. They did say that's likely when the attack began IIRC. Makes more sense MOO that she accidently pushes the shutter as she's putting the camera in her pocket with her right hand while pulling out the knife with her left...JM argued in closing Travis only moved toward her in an effort to get away from her, not attack her. He wanted out of that shower, away from the lunatic with the knife. He did at points in his cross adopt her position of Travis moving towards her and attacking her, taking her story as she told it to point out inconsistencies.

The pics were voluntary IMO. Shower door open for them. Agree she was flattering him...first to get him to take the pics then while taking them. Keeping him off guard. IMO no way he's going to just stand there with a gun pointed at him. At the point a weapon comes out it's ON. Plus he'd been shooting before with his friends..with serious guns. A .25 can sure kill you but IMO grown man would quickly figure out he's got a chance to rush her, knock the little gun from her and then call the police, not stand there while she has a gun in one hand and a camera in the other. If he stays there she could shoot him in the head or heart and possible kill him. If he moves then he's a moving target and even if a shot hits him he's got a better chance at it not being fatal. The thing is, as JM points out, his hands are cut. When he made it to the sink his hands were bleeding, from the defensive wounds. More blood on the side where the hand which had been cut the worst rested. Less blood from the less injured hand side. This does not lend itself to her threatening suicide. She came there to kill him. Why would she turn off her phone and bring gas cans if it was a murder/suicide plan? Jmo

To me the face pic is annoyed not anger...like "you said this was only gonna take five minutes. Let's go, I've got a conference call in an hour". But I don't see at all the face of someone angry because Jodi was threatening to kill herself. Travis was a gentle dude...and if presented with that scenario he'd be compassionate, not angry.

IIRC May 26 was Travis calling her out for snooping again. He was pissed. Called her names, threatened exposure. Jodi IMO was just trying to agree with him "you're right. I don't even deserve to breathe"...stuff like that. Not a serious suicide threat at all. They talk after that fight and whatever she said worked because on June 4 she's in his bed.
 
Excedrin Headache #Eleventyforty:

If this (left) is the back of Travis' head, where is his ear (so clearly visible
in 5:22:36)?

Travisheadbacks.jpg
 
I defer to Geevee and Pocket's thorough sleuthing and logical take on all things camera.....just disagree with the idea that a video was taken during the slaughter.

But does that picture look like she is bending over with a strap on her neck and the camera hitting the floor? Her leg appears straight and foot planted and the camera slightly behind her...IMO


image.jpg
 
I never heard JM say Travis was alive after the neck wound. Listened to his closing the other day where he reiterated Horn saying Travis would be dead in seconds after his jugular and carotid being slashed. The foot pic was taken halfway down the hall so he was dead IMO.

Also never heard Flores or JM say Travis was moving toward her at time of first accidental pic. For that to happen she'd have to have the knife in one hand and the camera in the other. They did say that's likely when the attack began IIRC. Makes more sense MOO that she accidently pushes the shutter as she's putting the camera in her pocket with her right hand while pulling out the knife with her left...JM argued in closing Travis only moved toward her in an effort to get away from her, not attack her. He wanted out of that shower, away from the lunatic with the knife. He did at points in his cross adopt her position of Travis moving towards her and attacking her, taking her story as she told it to point out inconsistencies.

The pics were voluntary IMO. Shower door open for them. Agree she was flattering him...first to get him to take the pics then while taking them. Keeping him off guard. IMO no way he's going to just stand there with a gun pointed at him. At the point a weapon comes out it's ON. Plus he'd been shooting before with his friends..with serious guns. A .25 can sure kill you but IMO grown man would quickly figure out he's got a chance to rush her, knock the little gun from her and then call the police, not stand there while she has a gun in one hand and a camera in the other. If he stays there she could shoot him in the head or heart and possible kill him. If he moves then he's a moving target and even if a shot hits him he's got a better chance at it not being fatal. The thing is, as JM points out, his hands are cut. When he made it to the sink his hands were bleeding, from the defensive wounds. More blood on the side where the hand which had been cut the worst rested. Less blood from the less injured hand side. This does not lend itself to her threatening suicide. She came there to kill him. Why would she turn off her phone and bring gas cans if it was a murder/suicide plan? Jmo

To me the face pic is annoyed not anger...like "you said this was only gonna take five minutes. Let's go, I've got a conference call in an hour". But I don't see at all the face of someone angry because Jodi was threatening to kill herself. Travis was a gentle dude...and if presented with that scenario he'd be compassionate, not angry.

IIRC May 26 was Travis calling her out for snooping again. He was pissed. Called her names, threatened exposure. Jodi IMO was just trying to agree with him "you're right. I don't even deserve to breathe"...stuff like that. Not a serious suicide threat at all. They talk after that fight and whatever she said worked because on June 4 she's in his bed.


JM wrote in his book that TA was alive when she first began dragging him. We discussed that here for days when his book first came out (that's when the camera strap conversation first began too).

And the moving towards JA? It was either in JM's book too or conceded on the stand by Flores to Nurmi, can't remember which, but am 100% sure that's accurate. (To Nurmi, it would have been elicited to support the DT's contention TA was beginning to lunge at her).


And..no, no! No. I am not saying she was actually threatening suicide. I am plucking at the idea she used that manipulation to control him, to keep him from rushing her instead of sitting down where she needed him to be.

Mister, it is just a plain 'ole fact of the matter fact she used suicide threats all along to manipulate him, and it is another just the facts, sir, that he BELIEVED she might.

Part of Regan & TA's IM exchange on MAY 19, 2008 that didn't get admitted until PP2---

TA said to Regan: "I'm afraid she's either going to kill herself or kill me."

Which do you think he found more likely?
 
But does that picture look like she is bending over with a strap on her neck and the camera hitting the floor? Her leg appears straight and foot planted and the camera slightly behind her...IMO


View attachment 90542


Go back and look at the past 2 years worth of my posts about this case and you won't find a single post until the past month or so when I was the slightest bit willing to think about any part of the murder itself.

I haven't wanted to imagine or think about what happened, much less to analyze ANY of the pics, including those in the shower. I still don't want to, frankly.

The passage in JM's book saying TA was still alive and she still had the camera so horrified me that I posted about that and straps....then promptly bowed out.

I follow and sleuth murder trials not to figure out the how's but to try to understand the whys. Psychology, not forensics.

A long explanation to say...nothing personal, but I don't clean toasters and if I "go back to his house" I'll be staying downstairs. :)
 
But does that picture look like she is bending over with a strap on her neck and the camera hitting the floor? Her leg appears straight and foot planted and the camera slightly behind her...IMO


View attachment 90542

This is the area of the pant where you see the 'fold' about midway up, I think it illustrates her leg/foot was in motion, with foot going upwards...see that toe just on the right of the white stripe? See the blur below it? I swapped colors to try to make it more visible.

53216bookLpantcrop.jpg
 
JM wrote in his book that TA was alive when she first began dragging him. We discussed that here for days when his book first came out (that's when the camera strap conversation first began too).

And the moving towards JA? It was either in JM's book too or conceded on the stand by Flores to Nurmi, can't remember which, but am 100% sure that's accurate. (To Nurmi, it would have been elicited to support the DT's contention TA was beginning to lunge at her).


And..no, no! No. I am not saying she was actually threatening suicide. I am plucking at the idea she used that manipulation to control him, to keep him from rushing her instead of sitting down where she needed him to be.

Mister, it is just a plain 'ole fact of the matter fact she used suicide threats all along to manipulate him, and it is another just the facts, sir, that he BELIEVED she might.

Part of Regan & TA's IM exchange on MAY 19, 2008 that didn't get admitted until PP2---

TA said to Regan: "I'm afraid she's either going to kill herself or kill me."

Which do you think he found more likely?

She threatened suicide from the beginning of their relationship, never did it. So I don't think Travis would take it as seriously in June 2008 as he did in 2007.

Why would she need to threaten to hurt herself? She flatters him, they've been getting along all day...she suggests the shower pictures...he figures what's the harm, she's almost back on the road. She maneuvers him into a few "poses", asks him to sit down then surprises him with a knife.

The element of surprise was key IMO. Not a prolonged drama of suicide with a gun that would immediately get his guard up.
 
This is the area of the pant where you see the 'fold' about midway up, I think it illustrates her leg/foot was in motion, with foot going upwards...see that toe just on the right of the white stripe? See the blur below it? I swapped colors to try to make it more visible.

View attachment 90543

Not seeing it geevee. It just looks like baggy pants on someone with their foot firmly planted. No way it's from a camera on a neck strap. She's apparently pretty limber but...

Sorry if I'm arguing with y'all today. Wife often says I should have been a lawyer instead of a vet.
All opinions are only mine and offered with respect
 
Not seeing it geevee. It just looks like baggy pants on someone with their foot firmly planted. No way it's from a camera on a neck strap. She's apparently pretty limber but...

Sorry if I'm arguing with y'all today. Wife often says I should have been a lawyer instead of a vet.
All opinions are only mine and offered with respect

Can you see it better here? I can also see the blur of her toes on the tile below this spot but I'll leave that discussion a few pages back.

53216bookLtoe.jpg

There's also a shadow from the floor upwards that I think is her hair, haven't done the visual mechanics to figure in the strap or no strap on that shadow but it's clearly there.

53216bookLshadow.jpg
 
P.S. Tex, no worries on arguing, I just take it as a healthy debate, my motivation is to get folks to see what I see so you can understand my reasoning of what I think is happening in each pic, and all totally meant respectfully.
 
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