Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #5

[ICit]

Whenever I read a text that Travis allegedly wrote I cannot help but think that some messages were proven to be written by JA.

It always makes me think if the missing journals that likely were taken because they did not show what JA wanted the story to be.

Whenever I see all the stuff about Travis being addicted to sex, I wonder if he is talking about the grinding which many young Mormans agree is okay. Of, course that was according to JA, so it is likely a lie too.

Whenever anyone points to the photos as proof that he willingly had sex with her that day, I think of the blurry photos of him and the clear ones of her and it screams to me that they were taken at different times. Not to mention her hair color.

Whenever someone points to the sex tapes as evidence that they regularly participated in sex I think about the tens of thousands of messages that had no mention of sex. My mind says they were obtained by nefarious means, even if she had to drug him and then call him over and over again. All was left was to splice them together and play just a bit for him over the phone. Perhaps by drugging him she was able to get the photos of him naked. Where are the other hundreds of photos if they really had the sex life she testified too?

She was, and perhaps still is, a legend in her own mind. Reality shows she was nothing but a con who used all kinds of methods to spy on him, make up evidence, damage his property and gaslight him so he could not have a moments peace unless he was willing to give in and be with her. When it became evident to her that it was not going to work and that he was going to ruin her chances of picking a naive husband from the easiest to con group she had ever met, she had to just go ahead and kill him.

 

[TrialWatcher]

(...)

My personal feeling has been that - as he used the word several times in one session, not having used it ever before, that he was being sarcastic, he had broken the pattern that had set in, he knew he had and he was begging for her to once and for all, come clean so he could close the book forever. She wouldn't give him that because she had already planned to close the book in her own way, and she did so as heartlessly as she had treated him all along, in his words - killing him from the inside out.

BBM

I agree with the bolded part. Travis didn't get what he wanted from the heartless killer.

He hadn't broken the pattern that had set in. The end date of all contact between them wasn't May 26. He knew she was manipulating him, a liar, cruel. Yet he still replied to her texts, speaking for around an hour on the phone in total before his murder. There were nude pics from the day showing he hadn't broken the getting naked with her pattern. No one disputed the sexual interaction. Neither jury questioned that it happened during questions or interviews afterwards. It was captured on camera. As circumstantial evidence of sexual interaction it's pretty strong on that basis alone.

 

[Hope4More]

I tried to stay away this time.
But you called
And you made sure I heard your voice
U knew that would be enough
Not how many infractions
You just kill me
Every time
And I keep taking you back
I have come to terms with it
I am in partial addicted to you
The positives
If all you were is positive
Or your good facad that is in fact an act
I'm addicted to it
But it is bullshiz
Yet I'm addicted to it
And you know it
And you know I will take you back
You always know
You know I'll get pissed but I'll take you back


Not sarcastic at all IMO. Very self aware. Baring his soul. It's very tragic reading this and realizing how right he was

But you called, you knew.....etc. In the first few minutes of chat TA refers specifically to that call as "disgusting; " it is the same call that elicits his greatest anger, both in texts where he calls her evil and a sociopath, and for a good long ways into the chat. Sucked in by that call? I don't think so. And neither did the , I think it's fairly safe to say.

The rest of the lines you cite come after "you win, jodi." He's not expressing defeat about being caught in the cycle. He's expressing defeat that he can't get her to admit she lied, and IMO he tries the different tactic of "surrendering," expressing again that he understands perfectly, at last, what he's been caught up in with her.

After those words you cite are the equally important if not more important lines where he makes it clear he is NOT giving in to the cycle. He demands to the very last word of the chat that she TELL THE TRUTH.

He does NOT forgive her. He says no such thing, and IMO the right right right lines which come after those you cite are as sarcastic as it gets.

Am I buying his sudden reversal after 2 hours that the call sucked him in? Nope.

 

[Hope4More]

This is exactly my understanding. Thank you for putting it so well.
(back to lurking )

ETA: oops, I was refering to Hope4more's post #1089

Welcome!! Lurkers emerging to join in-- that's as good as it gets here.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

I tried to stay away this time.
But you called
And you made sure I heard your voice
U knew that would be enough
Not how many infractions
You just kill me
Every time
And I keep taking you back
I have come to terms with it
I am in partial addicted to you
The positives
If all you were is positive
Or your good facad that is in fact an act
I'm addicted to it
But it is bullshiz
Yet I'm addicted to it
And you know it
And you know I will take you back
You always know
You know I'll get pissed but I'll take you back


Not sarcastic at all IMO. Very self aware. Baring his soul. It's very tragic reading this and realizing how right he was

Finally. Thank you Tex, in your post there is no mention of him being with her simply for the sex. (I know, no one has claimed such) It reads to me that Travis had been (and maybe still was) "addicted" to a person he had once cared about emotionally and physically. Had those feelings changed? Probably. He was "addicted" to her and all of her evilness, but was trying to "shut it off like a light switch" "cut it off at its source" (her sick words) Instead, she acted out on those very words by killing a good man. His "addiction" was her.

 

[geevee]

This is exactly my understanding. Thank you for putting it so well.
(back to lurking )

ETA: oops, I was refering to Hope4more's post #1089

Welcome, nice to see a cross-over from lurkdom!

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Welcome, nice to see a cross-over from lurkdom!

Yes it is geevee. It appears it was the one and only post. Jump on in here freudianslip. We bark, but try not to bite. Welcome to the thread. :wagon:

 

[Hope4More]

The first day of 3 the left Mesa, Travis told a friend he felt sorry for her because her intrusions caused her self-inflicted pain. He also said, in essence, that he felt flattered in one way by her obsession with him, that such obsession was usually reserved for celebrities.

On May 26 what Travis was saying was that he understood her pursuit of him wasn't about him, it was about her, that it was based on hatred and a desire to ruin him, for reasons he didn't understand.

His mind was clear. He saw the cycle of manipulation for what it was, and he saw her for who she was, and he was able to do that because he was courageous enough to look deep inside himself , and though it had to cause him enormous pain, to concede that what he believed to be true wasn't, as he so eloquently told her.

 

[TexMex]

Finally. Thank you Tex, in your post there is no mention of him being with her simply for the sex. (I know, no one has claimed such) It reads to me that Travis had been (and maybe still was) "addicted" to a person he had once cared about emotionally and physically. Had those feelings changed? Probably. He was "addicted" to her and all of her evilness, but was trying to "shut it off like a light switch" "cut it off at its source" (her sick words) Instead, she acted out on those very words by killing a good man. His "addiction" was her.

Travis had felt abandoned as a child. I think he did once care very much for Jodi. He states "why did you manipulate me into loving you".

One key trait in borderline personality disorder is fear of abandonment. When he would try to distance himself Jodi would cry, drama, beg him not to leave, say he was all she had...don't leave me alone

IMO because of his background, it was extremely hard for him to hear that sort of plea. He knew how it was to feel unloved and alone. IMO that's why he could never fully separate from her, even after May 26

 

[Hope4More]

Thanks so much for having done this Hope, truly and greatly appreciated (((hugs))), I'll bet anything he was screening her calls and she was leaving VMs on her trip down there and then as Jody Citizen (I think) said, that 16 minute access to his phone after she killed him was her going in and wiping out all of those out. Some shaking, scared chihuahua she was! Thanks again Hope, you're magnificent.

I'm beginning to think she entered his house way later on June 4 than I first thought. Sounds possible he may have woken up, had oatmeal, cleaned the kitchen, went for a bike ride, and started putting up chairs to prep for cleaning the downstairs tiles, all before he knew she was there.

 

[Hope4More]

Travis had felt abandoned as a child. I think he did once care very much for Jodi. He states "why did you manipulate me into loving you".

One key trait in borderline personality disorder is fear of abandonment. When he would try to distance himself Jodi would cry, drama, beg him not to leave, say he was all she had...don't leave me alone

IMO because of his background, it was extremely hard for him to hear that sort of plea. He knew how it was to feel unloved and alone. IMO that's why he could never fully separate from her, even after May 26

I very much agree with you, all the way up to May 22. She exploited that vulnerability of his to the max, but on and afterwards, IMO, he absolutely did separate himself from her, thanks in part to the several weeks worth of hard core reality testing about her he had done with friends in May, and more importantly, because he had come clean to himself about how much damage the had inflicted upon him, including driving Lisa away.

And BTW, I agree with Sky and Chris that JA may well have murdered Lisa had TA not broken up with her. Ever since JA's journals were released I've been convinced the "dark" thoughts and scenarios she was alluding to in late fall/winter of 2007 were fantasies of just that.

And I've wondered if some part of TA's breaking it off with Lisa was based on his own fear, however deep down, that JA was capable of harming Lisa, not just her tires.

 

[freudianslip]

Yes it is geevee. It appears it was the one and only post. Jump on in here freudianslip. We bark, but try not to bite. Welcome to the thread. :wagon:

Thank you for the warm welcome. I'm not as fluent in English as I would like to be, which makes me shy to contribute. But please know that I very much appreciate the insights and intelligence I find here. I've been passionately lurking here forever :shame:

 

[Caylee Advocate]

I'm beginning to think she entered his house way later on June 4 than I first thought. Sounds possible he may have woken up, had oatmeal, cleaned the kitchen, went for a bike ride, and started putting up chairs to prep for cleaning the downstairs tiles, all before he knew she was there.

It's very possible. Maybe she ambushed him in the garage since his bicycle was not upright??? But that still doesn't explain the roommates. Watch out rabbits, Hope may be entering. LMAO.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Thank you for the warm welcome. I'm not as fluent in English as I would like to be, which makes me shy to contribute. But please know that I very much appreciate the insights and intelligence I find here. I've been passionately lurking here forever :shame:

Oh you'll do fine. We are by no means a shy group, we are passionate in our beliefs as I'm sure you have witnessed by lurking. Sometimes I wish I could lurk, lol. I am not fluent in Spanish, but know enough to be on a blog that is mostly Spanish, and I have embarrassed myself a number of times by typing words on there that are totally wrong for what I am trying to say. So, get over your shyness and jump in.

 

[Hope4More]

It's very possible. Maybe she ambushed him in the garage since his bicycle was not upright??? But that still doesn't explain the roommates. Watch out rabbits, Hope may be entering. LMAO.

LOL. The rabbits are safe. What is there to explain about the roommates in that scenario?

And BTW about a piece of the new info that clicked into place---it sounds possible she wanted to rent a white car because that was the color of the car belonging to the one roommate she likely knew about.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

LOL. The rabbits are safe. What is there to explain about the roommates in that scenario?

And BTW about a piece of the new info that clicked into place---it sounds possible she wanted to rent a white car because that was the color of the car belonging to the one roommate she likely knew about.

Woah wait a second, maybe Travis woke up early, did all you said, took off for a bike ride and that is when she entered his home (roommates had already left), snooped through everything and hid upstairs in his closet until he came up and she ambushed him. I agree about the white car too, I also thought I had read that Mimi drove a white car. Don't ask where because I really do not remember.

 

[Hope4More]

Another relevant paraphrased text from May 21-22, when TA was in the process of confronting the about her MariaM lie, first indirectly, then directly.

He was texting with Michelle at the same time, for moral support about the confrontation.

How concerned was he about confronting JA over such a gigantic lie and psycho act?

Enough for Michelle to text him as he did so--- "you can do this, Travis. And you are not entirely alone; our Savior is with you and watching over you."

Something someone might say about a friend having to confront evil. Or at least, a very scary person.

 

[TexMex]

Thank you for the warm welcome. I'm not as fluent in English as I would like to be, which makes me shy to contribute. But please know that I very much appreciate the insights and intelligence I find here. I've been passionately lurking here forever :shame:

Come on in. No worries..my first language is Texan so if I break out a "y'all" or a "fixin' to"please forgive me.

 

[Hope4More]

Woah wait a second, maybe Travis woke up early, did all you said, took off for a bike ride and that is when she entered his home (roommates had already left), snooped through everything and hid upstairs in his closet until he came up and she ambushed him. I agree about the white car too, I also thought I had read that Mimi drove a white car. Don't ask where because I really do not remember.

Hiding in his closet was one of her specialties. She'd done so repeatedly before that day.

The screen on his office window removed? Breaking in or going out that way to avoid detection?

I'm thinking it's possible TA had locked all his doors- including the door from garage into the house, and in that scenario it makes sense she could have snuck in when he was out bike riding.

And have seen the chairs up on the couch when she entered, exactly as she described seeing them to Flores.

BTW, from the new sworn statements available, it is really obvious that there's no way Travis and Naps wouldn't have heard her entering through the garage in the early AM on the 4th.

It's also obvious how un-sound proofed the upstairs area was. Those who discovered TA's body said they could hear the music Zach was playing in his room, door closed, while they were up in the loft area.

IMO, the would have had to be very sure indeed that roommates weren't in the house when she was upstairs with Travis.

From those acoustics, seems likely even regular volume voices spoken in TA's bedroom could have been heard in the loft area. No way she took any chances with that.

 

[kmp3]

To contineously talk about how Travis was an addict of some sort frankly disgusts me. I know some will respond by posting some nudes of him and a video of his sister saying JA was his choice of drug, then say -see? he was addicted!- , but I wish people will remember he is the victim in this case and his 'addiction' had nothing to do with his death. So why keep concentrating on Travis' weaknesses only? For days now. I have heard enough trash talking by Nurmi, Wilmott, ALV, & Fonseca on how TA and JA's relationship was toxic and that TA couldn't let JA go in peace.

In my mind their relationship was toxic because of JA and Travis just didn't know how to deal with it effectively. He did try though to end the cycle towards the end of his life. I give him a lot of credit for trying his best. No, I don't believe he still was addicted to the toxic relationship or to JA on June 4th, welcomed JA when she showed up and had a sex party.

We are getting into a dangerous territory here. No one is trash-talking Travis, and it's disgusting to me that someone would construe our opinions that way. No one, that I have seen, has blamed travis for what happened to him. We are merely trying to explain why he would be with Jodi on June 4 after professing his hatred for her on May 26.

For those who may be confused, let's be clear. Travis was not at fault for his murder (regardless of whether or not he was addicted to the sex w/ Jodi). I think we can all agree on that, at least.