Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #6

[Hope4More]

Can't seem to do a new post, hope this works.

Part 2 of Enrique's video is just under 4 minutes. In it he blasts juror 17 as a petty moral midget who subverted justice in order to get revenge on JM.

And BTW, on tape #1 Enrique makes it very plain he hoped the would receive the DP and that he thinks she is "pure evil" who should be wiped off the face of the earth.

 

[Hope4More]

Umm...mods? Editing a post seems to duplicate it instead.

 

[Val1]

The also told Flores that Travis agreed to exchange passwords in August 2007 to "re- establish trust." Pfffftt. What she was saying was she thought it could be proven that she hacked into his FB and MySpace from August 2007 until May 22, 2008.

Re the shaving pic, is there any corroboration that TA was the one that posted it, or had it posted for him, on his Myspace and not JA doing it out of spite or whatever and that that's what started all the kerfuffle with TA's rant about how dare she talk about him invading her privacy? Iirc, at some point TA had even said he didn't even know how to post or change pics and had said something about how he would need to get his webmaster to do that stuff. Plus even JA kept saying how private TA was with even his shaving routine and if true, surely he wouldn't have wanted it on his website promoting his book instead of one of the office pics where he had obviously agreed to some profile type pics?

 

[RickshawFan]

One more technical point about Wifi- that password is assigned to you by your server company, you do not choose it. When we were broken into last year, we upgraded our service, and AT&T assigned us a new random Wifi password and username on our router. I feel obligated to correct misinformation in this area because hubby works for AT&T!

Not the router we use. My brother put a PW on it that no one could ever remember, so I've had experience with this problem. We had to buy a new one at Walmart to replace the darn thing 'cos we couldn't access it. The new router isn't a phone company issue, either.

 

[geevee]

Umm...mods? Editing a post seems to duplicate it instead.

I haven't tried to edit yet but see concerns I mentioned yesterday are being addressed (color being added, separation on main board between threads/stickies) - thanks a bunch behind-the-scene peoples, really appreciated.

 

[geevee]

Re the shaving pic, is there any corroboration that TA was the one that posted it, or had it posted for him, on his Myspace and not JA doing it out of spite or whatever and that that's what started all the kerfuffle with TA's rant about how dare she talk about him invading her privacy? Iirc, at some point TA had even said he didn't even know how to post or change pics and had said something about how he would need to get his webmaster to do that stuff. Plus even JA kept saying how private TA was with even his shaving routine and if true, surely he wouldn't have wanted it on his website promoting his book instead of one of the office pics where he had obviously agreed to some profile type pics?

No corroboration that I'm aware of, I've always been suspicious about her tale of that pic and later him deciding he liked it enough to put on his MySpace, just sounds too convenient. I've suspected she took it on the sly and posted it somewhere, her or even his MySpace just to slap at his desire for privacy and her ability to shatter his right to it.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

I'm thinking she might have hung around because she was looking for a murder opportunity before she left Mesa, and didn't quite get the nerve. She could've used Gus as the alibi in that scenario.

If she planned to use Gus as an alibi, this would account for her vagueness about the early April dates. She could easily say she wasn't in Mesa....

There's something hinky about going to Yreka via Gus. It would have been way cheaper to have him overnight the Helio: he was an alibi for something.

Gus would be like the first round version of what she later did with RB: no love interest, but an alibi with sex thrown in. Then she calls attention to the fact she was there by writing in her journal that she started using the Helio that day. She might have lied in her journal. And then......she lies about the actual day, as we know, because it was a Sunday and Gus said he had to take his kids to school.

LOL, TA banished her from his house (brought a pillow out to the truck) so a murder plan might have been nuked or needed a re-think. She did have her little ways of getting in, though.....

But TA was evidently on high alert: not a good time to execute. Was there a lot of activity at his house right then as well? TA would have been missed right away in early April, and so she chose the time frame for Cancun.

If not lingering to pull off a murder, she might have been scouting entries, comings and goings, etc. to pull off a future plan. At the very least, she had murder on the back burner already, are we agreed?

All that hanging around with the UHaul truck has to have had some motive. That thing was costing $$$$ the longer she kept it.

Bill Arais was not happy about Sandy taking off to go get Jodi back to Yreka. He said it cost over two thousand bucks, and Sandy had to take time off from work. Jodi wrote she really didn't need the big truck, she only has a few boxes.


Remember when Gus was on the stand, before he told Judge Stevens that he didn't have an attorney if he would be found in contempt if he refused to tell who was the person in the car with him and could back his story up for him? , I wonder who's wife he'd sleezed his way into her panties, and that was why he didn't want to say her name in court

He said that he has something that could help or hurt Jodi. He holds out a phone, when he talks about Jodi calling him the night she killed Travis. Jodi spent several days with Gus in his BIG motor home in Las Vegas convention? I think that was the story of Travis screaming and cussing at Jodi, and Jodi was crying and shaking and he comforted her.

 

[wasnt_me]

I'm thinking it might have helped to be in range. At the very least, she could have been tracking physical goings in and out, and then matching it to texts and phone calls, which evidently she was corralling. This was a much more thorough way to pry than just getting his texts and phone calls routed to her. She could only pick up those in range of his house, anyway, right? 'Cos she relied on his internet? I'm sure she didn't deign to go down to the library and log on, like other penniless mortals.

Maybe someone else can answer whether the ability to see someone else's screen (on a PC) requires the same router. On the Mac it's very easy, and has been for a long time.....

I am not one who thinks she had spyware on his phone to get into his text messages or reroute them. For someone else to be in your computer, you have to give that other computer permission to do it. I'm thinking something like that would have left a forensic trail either on his computer or hers or both. However, I don't know enough about that topic or how advanced it was or wasn't in 2008.

 

[wasnt_me]

One more point to reiterate- Jodi didn't hit the back button on the browser at the library- they automatically log you out!

Ah, that is interesting to note. But even in 2008, you think?

I would think so. Because people can get some VERY sensitive information if it didn't. And for her to drive somewhere and come back, that's gotta at least be 10 minutes.

 

[wasnt_me]

IIRC, TA said in a text to one of his gal friends that JA had been getting into his social media for a year. JA also tells Flores that they broke up in June 2007 over passwords and social media.

There's not enough context here to know what the text meant or he meant. Please provide the text and more context about it. I'd appreciate it. For example, if she got into his myspace by "backspacing" in Feb 2007, and if she got into his phone the summer of 2007 and again when she sent that girl the "time to cuddle with Jodi" and THEN he caught her doing it again after she moved, well, that's over a year. If the text was after the ldslinkup text, it can be added. But his comment doesn't have to indicate every day of the week, 24/7 monitoring, bugging phones, etc.

As for what Jodi told Flores, check out my signature. :blushing:

 

[wasnt_me]

No corroboration that I'm aware of, I've always been suspicious about her tale of that pic and later him deciding he liked it enough to put on his MySpace, just sounds too convenient. I've suspected she took it on the sly and posted it somewhere, her or even his MySpace just to slap at his desire for privacy and her ability to shatter his right to it.

It's there and there right now.

https://myspace.com/tvalexander

Unless this is not the profile. As I stated before, it would seem his friends who followed the case would have quickly ratted Jodi out on this one through JM or the media. As for the pictures on facebook issue, Jodi is the one who texted him that she didn't know how to do it. I don't know about him not knowing how to on his website, though.

 

[LinasK]

Ah, that is interesting to note. But even in 2008, you think?

I would think so. Because people can get some VERY sensitive information if it didn't. And for her to drive somewhere and come back, that's gotta at least be 10 minutes.

Pretty sure. Can't remember the year offhand right now, (I know it was after 2006) and we were in San Bernardino and my father asked us to look up some public records for the area (land boundaries kinda' thing). This isn't something we did regularly so I remember it. We went to the public library and it automatically logged us out.

 

[wasnt_me]

So Linask,

What's your theory on how it really happened then? I never though to question the "backspace story." After all, "hit that backspace button" was such a catchy phrase during trial. :jail:

I wouldn't even know how to approach it. I believe they did have to go to the library to check emails. But maybe she got his password there from staring at his hands while he logged in and then she went back and checked it or went to a friend's house and did it. I don't think she could have done it at work? I don't know the reason servers would need Internet access while taking tables.

 

[mandystrange70]

FYI - been lurking and following along...

Listened to Juan interview on XM radio with Jenny McCarthy....I know, but it was a great interview! He confirms which I hadn't heard before that he did not think Travis was expecting Jodi that day....which I always believed anyways....

anyway don't know how to create the link, but probably could google her show dirty sexy funny with Jenny McCarthy....how appropriate...lol!

Sent from my SM-T210 using Tapatalk

 

[RickshawFan]

I am not one who thinks she had spyware on his phone to get into his text messages or reroute them. For someone else to be in your computer, you have to give that other computer permission to do it. I'm thinking something like that would have left a forensic trail either on his computer or hers or both. However, I don't know enough about that topic or how advanced it was or wasn't in 2008.

All she had to do was get into his laptop and give herself permission. It's a feature of the operating system, on the Mac at least. You've been able to do this for perhaps 25 years. That was the feature that allowed rudimentary networks to be devised. This feature is used these days by IT departments and prying bosses.

There was no evidence one way or the other that Jodi was doing anything with TA's computer as far as hacking, IIRC. However, we don't have her computer.

I'm not certain what kind of a forensic trail "sharing" would leave. If you sync your iphone with your desktop computer (i.e. do a data transfer) does it leave a trail? If you pick up your incoming mail on another computer when you're on vacation, does it leave a trail? All Jodi had to do was the latter. AFAIK.

As far as the phone, I'm not a big phone user. However, it might have worked for Jodi's purposes to text him frequently (as she did), then get hold of his phone and see what numbers he was dialing/texting when he didn't text her back. He frequently didn't text her back.

 

[RickshawFan]

There's not enough context here to know what the text meant or he meant. Please provide the text and more context about it. I'd appreciate it. For example, if she got into his myspace by "backspacing" in Feb 2007, and if she got into his phone the summer of 2007 and again when she sent that girl the "time to cuddle with Jodi" and THEN he caught her doing it again after she moved, well, that's over a year. If the text was after the ldslinkup text, it can be added. But his comment doesn't have to indicate every day of the week, 24/7 monitoring, bugging phones, etc.

As for what Jodi told Flores, check out my signature. :blushing:

Hope quoted the relevant supports a page or two upthread.

 

[RickshawFan]

So Linask,

What's your theory on how it really happened then? I never though to question the "backspace story." After all, "hit that backspace button" was such a catchy phrase during trial. :jail:

I wouldn't even know how to approach it. I believe they did have to go to the library to check emails. But maybe she got his password there from staring at his hands while he logged in and then she went back and checked it or went to a friend's house and did it. I don't think she could have done it at work? I don't know the reason servers would need Internet access while taking tables.

Here's my experience.

I use library computers frequently. These days, I have to go there if I want to print something. Most of the time, I use libraries in smallish towns. Each library is a little different.

If Jodi's goth boyfriend got up to go to the bathroom or to make a phone call, no problem. (I'll bet it was a phone call from another girlfriend, and he was prompted to call by something on the computer.) A little backspace and she's in. In other words, the computer doesn't clear the patron's stuff right away. I did not take this statement of Jodi's to be a lie.

On some library computers, you have to do a Save (e.g. a PDF attached to a message you've emailed yourself; fairly frequently, in my experience, you can't just view a PDF or whatever) in order to pull a document up to print it. If you do word processing (or other), you can save as you go along. There are typically all kinds of detritus from patrons in the Documents folder. Some libraries do a better job of automatically deleting a patron's stuff when they're done, but not most, even in 2016! I am always amazed at all the nooks and crannies I have to check before I know my documents have been entirely removed.

 

[Hope4More]

I am not one who thinks she had spyware on his phone to get into his text messages or reroute them. For someone else to be in your computer, you have to give that other computer permission to do it. I'm thinking something like that would have left a forensic trail either on his computer or hers or both. However, I don't know enough about that topic or how advanced it was or wasn't in 2008.

There was a long discussion awhile ago about how she could have had indirect access to his texts. Bottom line, back then (and now?) folks could and did compose and send texts via computer.

There has also been discussion about how easy it would have been for her to have chosen a setting on his computer, while still in Mesa, to give herself full remote access to everything on his computer.

Theoretically, then, she could have hacked (using term loosely) either or both his phone and his computer. Did she? We don't know, and IMO, without additional and unforthcoming info, there is no way of knowing.

For me though, the more general question of whether or not she accessed his SM accounts post-Mesa can and has been answered. She did.

The fact that she had wormed herself into his SM accounts, and likely didn't know what computer forensics could uncover, is IMO why she told the elaborate lie about exchanging passwords. And interestingly, backdates that exchange to August, 2007, which definitely suggests that's when she first began invading his online privacy, wholesale.

The concrete "tell" is when Flores told her LE could determine whether or not she'd accessed his computer remotely. She'd just said she hadn't. After Flores said LE would know she immediately reversed herself and said she had gone into his FB and MySpace. Because he'd given her the passwords. But that she stopped after he told her he wasn't comfortable with that anymore. In her journal she dates that as May 22, when passwords were withdrawn and the "relationship" ended.

 

[Hope4More]

I'm thinking she might have hung around because she was looking for a murder opportunity before she left Mesa, and didn't quite get the nerve. She could've used Gus as the alibi in that scenario.

If she planned to use Gus as an alibi, this would account for her vagueness about the early April dates. She could easily say she wasn't in Mesa....

There's something hinky about going to Yreka via Gus. It would have been way cheaper to have him overnight the Helio: he was an alibi for something.

Gus would be like the first round version of what she later did with RB: no love interest, but an alibi with sex thrown in. Then she calls attention to the fact she was there by writing in her journal that she started using the Helio that day. She might have lied in her journal. And then......she lies about the actual day, as we know, because it was a Sunday and Gus said he had to take his kids to school.

LOL, TA banished her from his house (brought a pillow out to the truck) so a murder plan might have been nuked or needed a re-think. She did have her little ways of getting in, though.....

But TA was evidently on high alert: not a good time to execute. Was there a lot of activity at his house right then as well? TA would have been missed right away in early April, and so she chose the time frame for Cancun.

If not lingering to pull off a murder, she might have been scouting entries, comings and goings, etc. to pull off a future plan. At the very least, she had murder on the back burner already, are we agreed?

All that hanging around with the UHaul truck has to have had some motive. That thing was costing $$$$ the longer she kept it.

Took me a long while, Rickshaw, but here's my ridiculously long reply:


There’s been a lot of really good discussion here, going way back, about how early on the began thinking about murdering Travis. IIRC, many folks thought she left Mesa precisely because she had decided to kill him, that she took his journals to remove incriminating evidence of how TA really felt about her (and/ or because he’d written about the psycho stuff she’d inflicted upon him), and that she wanted the Helio because she’d already cooked up a plan to “incriminate” him.

IMO, this is one of the many questions that can be endlessly speculated about, but can’t really be answered. Being a flaming speculator, though, I’m good with offering up an opinion.

I think the crossed a gigantic psychological line in the fall and early winter of 2007, and that she began fantasizing then about killing Lisa. I mean, really thinking about and imagining the act of murder. Enough so that she alarmed herself, enough so that she wrote of obsessive dark thoughts and scenarios that had to be controlled, because thoughts alone could manifest as reality.

From her journal entries around the same time saying how horrible it would be if her journal were to be read by strangers, I think she was already thinking of using their sexual relationship against him, directly or indirectly. Coercion, then, to get what she wanted, not murder to remove him.

In January 2008 she went with a full -out *advertiser censored* approach to bring him down and to eliminate Lisa as competition (no murder on mind).

Ironically, her whoring it up seemed to have some unexpected consequences. By the end of January Travis felt guilty and terrible enough that he went to his Bishop to confess the sexual activity. According to his friends, he also became more determined around this time that the had to be convinced to leave Mesa. A lose-lose for the .

And, if the texts are an accurate reflection of what also happened, another consequence seems to have been that her whoring opened up TA’s interest in pursuing sexual encounters of whatever sort with other women. Travis didn’t “sext” before the ’s whoring in January. By early February he was doing exactly that, first with Talie, then with others.

Imagine that. First the wasn’t a good enough Mormon to be marriage material. Then, after debasing herself by whoring, Travis doesn’t even want her as a *advertiser censored*, and instead sets off flirting and sexting with other women, including complete strangers, rather than her.

Was she murder minded yet? By February? I don’t think so. Her rage and hatred for Travis began seeping through in her journal and in her texts to him even in January, but through the first 3 weeks of February she also wrote a great deal about marriage, obviously with Travis in mind.

By the end of February, the beginning of March? Not yet, I think, though it was around that time she began losing control and acting out her rage. Her lie about Travis hitting her after (the lie of) telling him she needed to leave Mesa? IMO that was the day Travis told her she needed to go and that he couldn’t/wouldn’t help her any more financially. She’d been fired from Mimi’s. She had no way of holding on. She knew she’d have to leave. Somehow I can’t imagine her being pleasant to Travis during this conversation.

By mid-March? After Travis expressed his interest in having Mimi come along on a group road trip to OKC, rather than travelling alone with the on this road trip, this checking off places on the 1,000 places list trip she’d been thinking about and planning for since January?

Maybe after she read his journal that she had in her possession at OKC, perhaps after reading his many expressions of love for Lisa? Maybe after looking for similar expressions of love for her, but not finding any, even going all the way back to the summer of 2007, if this first journal she stole went back that far?

Maybe after being deprived of her customary Queen’s seat at the Executive Director banquet, and after Travis ignored her and tried to avoid being with her for those days at convention? Or perhaps, if she snooped CL’s phone while she was in the shower or asleep, when she realized CL, one of her very few “friends” was texting with Travis behind her back, trying to ditch the so she and a very interested and eager Travis could hook up?

The was raging, for sure, after convention. First day back and poof go his journal and diamond engagement ring, her gas-lighting of him intensifies, and there isn’t a stretch of time before she is forced out of Mesa in which she leaves him in peace, when she isn’t tormenting him or trying to blow up what’s important to him.

But…was she thinking already of murdering him? I don’t think so. I think she stole the second journal on her way out of town out of spite and hatred, and to rob Travis of Lisa in one more way. I think she blew up the BMW out of rage because Travis that day was planning one more party to which she wasn't invited, rather than taking her to that special pizza place to mourn together about her imminent departure.

Or, perhaps, because she thought blowing up the BMW would somehow, magically, convince Travis that it was now impossible for her to leave Mesa? Have to say that the texts she sent while leaving but not leaving Mesa were so abjectly pitiful and pathetic that I could almost feel sorry for her. OK, not, but what I hear in them isn’t an intent to murder, but a downright child-like disbelief that she was actually, really and truly being forced to leave, and that Travis really and truly wanted her gone.

The Helio? Before we had access to the texts and journals, back when we couldn’t figure out what day she left Mesa, I believed she drove out of her way to get the Helio because Travis had already threatened her that he’d tell everyone of importance to her that she was a psycho, etc. if she didn’t cough up the truth about Michelle the Spy.

But….she already had the Helio when Travis told her that. So why her interest in the Helio, her willingness to drive the U-Haul hundreds of miles out of her way to go get one from Gus? IMO, simply because she wanted a Helio phone. It was on her list of the top 10 things she wanted, written in her journal, months before she left Mesa. She couldn’t afford anything on the list, including the Helio, but it obviously occurred to her at some point she could get Gus to give her one.

Maybe the Razr in hot chocolate story was originally told to Gus, along with a sob story along the lines of----I really want to stay in touch with you, Gus, but I’m so broke I can’t even afford to replace the cellphone I just accidentally destroyed. Why meet up with him rather than having the Helio sent to her? Why not? Her parents were paying for the U-Haul, not her, what was the hurry to get to Yreka, and perhaps Gus had more to give her than just the Helio.

So, in the first week of April, after Travis threatened her with exposure, after she had been forced to leave Mesa, one of her last sights being Travis giving her a double bird, while she was driving a U-Haul containing a few boxes of books and clothes and “art” back to Yreka and the cramped little bedroom in her grandparents’ house, with, at best, a waitressing job in a dive to look forward to?

Not even then, IMO, taking into account the ’s power of delusion and her arrogance. She is someone who in mid-March wrote a to-do list that included becoming a PPL executive-director, in Yreka, within a few months of returning there (heh). I think she may well have convinced herself she could still have Travis and his lifestyle, that he’d realize after she left how much he wanted and missed her, how irreplaceable she was to him.

Her nod to Travis acknowledging his inexplicable need to marry a good Mormon was evidenced in the many texts she sent him in April asking for his guidance about scripture, how to block un-Mormon like content on TV, praising his knowledge of all things Mormon, bemoaning how un-Mormon was Yreka, and not least, expressing to Travis how much her spiritual fog had lifted since returning to Yreka.

I think it’s equally telling that she didn’t, for all of April, try to line up a prey to replace Travis. She spent all of April unemployed, in that tiny bedroom, monitoring Travis, trying to reel him back in any way she could. She clearly began manufacturing “evidence” that Travis was still interested in her sexually and as a friend, whatever her intent was about using the online trail she was creating.

The very end of April, then, when she began working Ryan Burns? Maybe? She’d met Ryan in OKC, in the limousine where she was photographed sitting next to CL, on her way to a party she said CL insisted upon going to (CL said no such thing, she was trying to hook up with Travis). She gave her card (LOL) to Burns in the limousine, and told him to call her if he ever needed her assistance in lining up prospects in CA, where she’d soon be relocating.

Burns didn’t call until the end of April, when Zion told him to check out the , which he promptly did, going into a quiet room at the PPL event he was attending to give her a call, which according to Burns lasted a very long time.

I’ve always thought the prompted Zion to nudge Burns, but that’s just a theory. In any case, what I think most relevant is that the didn’t agree to go to Utah until late May, despite the fact Burns began urging her on May 3 to come visit, and to “not play hard to get.”

Perhaps she tried so desperately to get Travis to visit her in Yreka because she planned on killing him there in Oregon? And that’s why she put so much effort into creating the lie-story of Travis fantasizing about trying her up to a tree, etc.? (BTW, before trial she referred to that as the forest idea/plan/scenario, whatever. It wasn’t until trial that the term morphed into a “Little Red Riding Hood” fantasy, obviously intended to reinforce the offensive lies about 12-year-old girls and pedophilia).

Maybe yes? Although that would mean she was so focused on killing Travis that she hadn’t bothered to fully line up Ryan Burns yet. But perhaps she was confident already that he was hers for the taking whenever it suited her?

Or…. maybe her attempts to get Travis there were her last ditch effort to get Travis to prove he still cared about her; essentially, her line in the sand. She told him she needed his support on Memorial Day when she sang the National Anthem. She told him she wanted him to come visit so they could continue on their mutual goal of checking off those 1000 places. Whatever the date(s) in May she recorded, the sex tape revealed she’d spoken to him in May about his travel plans, and very unsubtly tried to include herself in every trip of his that she could. Maybe she could forgive him for not taking her to Cancun, even though she was the one who earned that trip, not him, if he would just at least be willing to still travel with her?

IMO her poor-me, passive-aggressive email to Travis on May 16 also suggests she was still clinging to the last threads of her fantasy that Travis would see the light, shake off the bad influence of the bad-mouthing Hughes, and elevate her in public, to all his friends, to her rightful place as his dear close friend…if not his GF.

Late May then? Exactly when it is JM says he believes she began planning to murder Travis, and after (or during) the May 26 show down?

I can agree with JM that she committed absolutely to the idea of murdering Travis at that point, and began to take concrete steps in lining up a plan to kill him. I’m pretty convinced, however, that her mind turned towards murder at least a few days earlier.

Her May 2008 journal was written after she killed Travis, IMO all the more reason to take note of her entry designating May 22 as the date their “relationship” ended, and that the ending felt a “bitter-sweet closure” as well as a “relief” to her.

Travis had, on May 21-22, forced the to admit she’d pretended to be MariaM and that she’d tried to lure him to Utah for an assignation that obviously wasn’t going to happen. He told the in the wee hours of May 22 that he was done with her (though he told Michelle minutes later—“somehow I doubt it will be that easy.”).

(BTW….who knows what else the as MariaM had solicited from Travis, in writing, that he thought she might use as ammunition against him? Perhaps it was that something she was “trying to send down the pipeline” on Facebook between May 22 and May 25, when Travis caught her red-handed, one last time?)

Last, of course, is the unresolvable and completely subjective mystery of what happened on May 26. There are hints that she already was thinking about killing him, including her statement that “well, there aren’t any positives left, so you won’t be addicted for much longer,” as well as her determination to get in writing denials that she’d slashed his tires or stole his journals or that she had any violent tendencies.

More subjective yet, IMO the didn't seem interested in pacifying Travis. Rather, she seemed to deliberately provoke him for most of the showdown, seemed to want to up the ante, and did definitely evade answering what he most needed her to respond to, though that could just as easily be because she is a sociopath who had been caught in one too many lies, and who never ever, ever was going to own up to the truth about her twisted, ugly, vicious, narcissistic self.

As I think it was you, Rickshaw, who said a long time ago, it seems entirely plausible that May 26th was about her provoking Travis into a response that would, in her mind, justify what she already had decided to do--murder him.

 

[RickshawFan]

Took me a long while, Rickshaw, but here's my ridiculously long reply:


There’s been a lot of really good discussion here, going way back, about how early on the began thinking about murdering Travis. IIRC, many folks thought she left Mesa precisely because she had decided to kill him, that she took his journals to remove incriminating evidence of how TA really felt about her (and/ or because he’d written about the psycho stuff she’d inflicted upon him), and that she wanted the Helio because she’d already cooked up a plan to “incriminate” him.

IMO, this is one of the many questions that can be endlessly speculated about, but can’t really be answered. Being a flaming speculator, though, I’m good with offering up an opinion.

I think the crossed a gigantic psychological line in the fall and early winter of 2007, and that she began fantasizing then about killing Lisa. I mean, really thinking about and imagining the act of murder. Enough so that she alarmed herself, enough so that she wrote of obsessive dark thoughts and scenarios that had to be controlled, because thoughts alone could manifest as reality.

From her journal entries around the same time saying how horrible it would be if her journal were to be read by strangers, I think she was already thinking of using their sexual relationship against him, directly or indirectly. Coercion, then, to get what she wanted, not murder to remove him.

In January 2008 she went with a full -out *advertiser censored* approach to bring him down and to eliminate Lisa as competition (no murder on mind).

Ironically, her whoring it up seemed to have some unexpected consequences. By the end of January Travis felt guilty and terrible enough that he went to his Bishop to confess the sexual activity. According to his friends, he also became more determined around this time that the had to be convinced to leave Mesa. A lose-lose for the .

And, if the texts are an accurate reflection of what also happened, another consequence seems to have been that her whoring opened up TA’s interest in pursuing sexual encounters of whatever sort with other women. Travis didn’t “sext” before the ’s whoring in January. By early February he was doing exactly that, first with Talie, then with others.

Imagine that. First the wasn’t a good enough Mormon to be marriage material. Then, after debasing herself by whoring, Travis doesn’t even want her as a *advertiser censored*, and instead sets off flirting and sexting with other women, including complete strangers, rather than her.

Was she murder minded yet? By February? I don’t think so. Her rage and hatred for Travis began seeping through in her journal and in her texts to him even in January, but through the first 3 weeks of February she also wrote a great deal about marriage, obviously with Travis in mind.

By the end of February, the beginning of March? Not yet, I think, though it was around that time she began losing control and acting out her rage. Her lie about Travis hitting her after (the lie of) telling him she needed to leave Mesa? IMO that was the day Travis told her she needed to go and that he couldn’t/wouldn’t help her any more financially. She’d been fired from Mimi’s. She had no way of holding on. She knew she’d have to leave. Somehow I can’t imagine her being pleasant to Travis during this conversation.

By mid-March? After Travis expressed his interest in having Mimi come along on a group road trip to OKC, rather than travelling alone with the on this road trip, this checking off places on the 1,000 places list trip she’d been thinking about and planning for since January?

Maybe after she read his journal that she had in her possession at OKC, perhaps after reading his many expressions of love for Lisa? Maybe after looking for similar expressions of love for her, but not finding any, even going all the way back to the summer of 2007, if this first journal she stole went back that far?

Maybe after being deprived of her customary Queen’s seat at the Executive Director banquet, and after Travis ignored her and tried to avoid being with her for those days at convention? Or perhaps, if she snooped CL’s phone while she was in the shower or asleep, when she realized CL, one of her very few “friends” was texting with Travis behind her back, trying to ditch the so she and a very interested and eager Travis could hook up?

The was raging, for sure, after convention. First day back and poof go his journal and diamond engagement ring, her gas-lighting of him intensifies, and there isn’t a stretch of time before she is forced out of Mesa in which she leaves him in peace, when she isn’t tormenting him or trying to blow up what’s important to him.

But…was she thinking already of murdering him? I don’t think so. I think she stole the second journal on her way out of town out of spite and hatred, and to rob Travis of Lisa in one more way. I think she blew up the BMW out of rage because Travis that day was planning one more party to which she wasn't invited, rather than taking her to that special pizza place to mourn together about her imminent departure.

Or, perhaps, because she thought blowing up the BMW would somehow, magically, convince Travis that it was now impossible for her to leave Mesa? Have to say that the texts she sent while leaving but not leaving Mesa were so abjectly pitiful and pathetic that I could almost feel sorry for her. OK, not, but what I hear in them isn’t an intent to murder, but a downright child-like disbelief that she was actually, really and truly being forced to leave, and that Travis really and truly wanted her gone.

The Helio? Before we had access to the texts and journals, back when we couldn’t figure out what day she left Mesa, I believed she drove out of her way to get the Helio because Travis had already threatened her that he’d tell everyone of importance to her that she was a psycho, etc. if she didn’t cough up the truth about Michelle the Spy.

But….she already had the Helio when Travis told her that. So why her interest in the Helio, her willingness to drive the U-Haul hundreds of miles out of her way to go get one from Gus? IMO, simply because she wanted a Helio phone. It was on her list of the top 10 things she wanted, written in her journal, months before she left Mesa. She couldn’t afford anything on the list, including the Helio, but it obviously occurred to her at some point she could get Gus to give her one.

Maybe the Razr in hot chocolate story was originally told to Gus, along with a sob story along the lines of----I really want to stay in touch with you, Gus, but I’m so broke I can’t even afford to replace the cellphone I just accidentally destroyed. Why meet up with him rather than having the Helio sent to her? Why not? Her parents were paying for the U-Haul, not her, what was the hurry to get to Yreka, and perhaps Gus had more to give her than just the Helio.

So, in the first week of April, after Travis threatened her with exposure, after she had been forced to leave Mesa, one of her last sights being Travis giving her a double bird, while she was driving a U-Haul containing a few boxes of books and clothes and “art” back to Yreka and the cramped little bedroom in her grandparents’ house, with, at best, a waitressing job in a dive to look forward to?

Not even then, IMO, taking into account the ’s power of delusion and her arrogance. She is someone who in mid-March wrote a to-do list that included becoming a PPL executive-director, in Yreka, within a few months of returning there (heh). I think she may well have convinced herself she could still have Travis and his lifestyle, that he’d realize after she left how much he wanted and missed her, how irreplaceable she was to him.

Her nod to Travis acknowledging his inexplicable need to marry a good Mormon was evidenced in the many texts she sent him in April asking for his guidance about scripture, how to block un-Mormon like content on TV, praising his knowledge of all things Mormon, bemoaning how un-Mormon was Yreka, and not least, expressing to Travis how much her spiritual fog had lifted since returning to Yreka.

I think it’s equally telling that she didn’t, for all of April, try to line up a prey to replace Travis. She spent all of April unemployed, in that tiny bedroom, monitoring Travis, trying to reel him back in any way she could. She clearly began manufacturing “evidence” that Travis was still interested in her sexually and as a friend, whatever her intent was about using the online trail she was creating.

The very end of April, then, when she began working Ryan Burns? Maybe? She’d met Ryan in OKC, in the limousine where she was photographed sitting next to CL, on her way to a party she said CL insisted upon going to (CL said no such thing, she was trying to hook up with Travis). She gave her card (LOL) to Burns in the limousine, and told him to call her if he ever needed her assistance in lining up prospects in CA, where she’d soon be relocating.

Burns didn’t call until the end of April, when Zion told him to check out the , which he promptly did, going into a quiet room at the PPL event he was attending to give her a call, which according to Burns lasted a very long time.

I’ve always thought the prompted Zion to nudge Burns, but that’s just a theory. In any case, what I think most relevant is that the didn’t agree to go to Utah until late May, despite the fact Burns began urging her on May 3 to come visit, and to “not play hard to get.”

Perhaps she tried so desperately to get Travis to visit her in Yreka because she planned on killing him there in Oregon? And that’s why she put so much effort into creating the lie-story of Travis fantasizing about trying her up to a tree, etc.? (BTW, before trial she referred to that as the forest idea/plan/scenario, whatever. It wasn’t until trial that the term morphed into a “Little Red Riding Hood” fantasy, obviously intended to reinforce the offensive lies about 12-year-old girls and pedophilia).

Maybe yes? Although that would mean she was so focused on killing Travis that she hadn’t bothered to fully line up Ryan Burns yet. But perhaps she was confident already that he was hers for the taking whenever it suited her?

Or…. maybe her attempts to get Travis there were her last ditch effort to get Travis to prove he still cared about her; essentially, her line in the sand. She told him she needed his support on Memorial Day when she sang the National Anthem. She told him she wanted him to come visit so they could continue on their mutual goal of checking off those 1000 places. Whatever the date(s) in May she recorded, the sex tape revealed she’d spoken to him in May about his travel plans, and very unsubtly tried to include herself in every trip of his that she could. Maybe she could forgive him for not taking her to Cancun, even though she was the one who earned that trip, not him, if he would just at least be willing to still travel with her?

IMO her poor-me, passive-aggressive email to Travis on May 16 also suggests she was still clinging to the last threads of her fantasy that Travis would see the light, shake off the bad influence of the bad-mouthing Hughes, and elevate her in public, to all his friends, to her rightful place as his dear close friend…if not his GF.

Late May then? Exactly when it is JM says he believes she began planning to murder Travis, and after (or during) the May 26 show down?

I can agree with JM that she committed absolutely to the idea of murdering Travis at that point, and began to take concrete steps in lining up a plan to kill him. I’m pretty convinced, however, that her mind turned towards murder at least a few days earlier.

Her May 2008 journal was written after she killed Travis, IMO all the more reason to take note of her entry designating May 22 as the date their “relationship” ended, and that the ending felt a “bitter-sweet closure” as well as a “relief” to her.

Travis had, on May 21-22, forced the to admit she’d pretended to be MariaM and that she’d tried to lure him to Utah for an assignation that obviously wasn’t going to happen. He told the in the wee hours of May 22 that he was done with her (though he told Michelle minutes later—“somehow I doubt it will be that easy.&#8221.

(BTW….who knows what else the as MariaM had solicited from Travis, in writing, that he thought she might use as ammunition against him? Perhaps it was that something she was “trying to send down the pipeline” on Facebook between May 22 and May 25, when Travis caught her red-handed, one last time?)

Last, of course, is the unresolvable and completely subjective mystery of what happened on May 26. There are hints that she already was thinking about killing him, including her statement that “well, there aren’t any positives left, so you won’t be addicted for much longer,” as well as her determination to get in writing denials that she’d slashed his tires or stole his journals or that she had any violent tendencies.

More subjective yet, IMO the didn't seem interested in pacifying Travis. Rather, she seemed to deliberately provoke him for most of the showdown, seemed to want to up the ante, and did definitely evade answering what he most needed her to respond to, though that could just as easily be because she is a sociopath who had been caught in one too many lies, and who never ever, ever was going to own up to the truth about her twisted, ugly, vicious, narcissistic self.

As I think it was you, Rickshaw, who said a long time ago, it seems entirely plausible that May 26th was about her provoking Travis into a response that would, in her mind, justify what she already had decided to do--murder him.

Wow.......

Also, I think there's a way to reconcile what I was saying about her hanging out in April 2008 in Travis' neighborhood without actually leaving, reconcile all of that with what you are saying. I'm suggesting that she was actually acting out bits of her fantasies and gathering information in the process about what might work and what might not. She was probably dreaming up possibilities and checking out whether they'd work for a loooong time. I believe what I'm describing is a more active plan-making than you're thinking. Your vision seems to be "she had been fantasizing for 9 months or so and was creating ever more fantasies." My version is "she was fantasizing and doing little experiments and itty bitty trials to see what might work and what would definitely not and early April worked out to be a great opportunity to test the possibilities, even if she appeared to be miserable." Anyway, that would be my idea of reconciling your speculations with mine.

Wowee for you input. Thanks.