Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #6

[LinasK]

Aw, so beautiful! LOL! I wonder if she's registered for Beano and hemorrhoid pads? You know what, I'll splurge and get her a few anti-shank/sex-toy toothbrushes. No toothpaste. JUST the brushes.

:laugh:She's gonna need those for her wedding night/honeymoon!!!

 

[RickshawFan]

I didn't find what he said to her as abusive- she deserved every word for what she put him through, and not taking "No" for an answer. I would have said many of the same things myself to her, but much sooner on than he did. He tried for too long to be nice about it and she didn't take his hints. She would still have killed him, just maybe not then, but I still think finding Mimi's name on the Cancun ticket sealed the plan in her mind that she'd already made plans for.

Thanks so much for correcting the notion that TA used words that were abusive (and not called for) and that his behavior somehow accelerated his death. TA had already tried everything to get her out of his life. He had been trying for a year. He never threatened or attempted to kill her. He used words...in a text message. JA was the only one responsible for accelerating TA's death, and she planned it with calculation and deliberation.

 

[Hope4More]

At no point did I ever say JA shouldn't spend life in prison with no parole. In fact, that's exactly where I always said she should and would be, and now she is. That is as much justice as any crime victim can get because they can't be brought back to life.

Danielle Van Dam's parents weren't in a dysfunctional dating relationship with their daughter's killer and their 'faults' had nothing to do with the fact they lived a couple houses away from a pedophile.

Travis was in a very dysfunctional situation with his eventual killer, over a period of time. Travis could have walked away, refused to talk to the manipulator, changed the locks on his doors, changed the garage door code, lock up the patio/doggy door entrance, and change his phone number. He didn't do any of those things. Travis could have reported JA's stalking to the police. He didn't. Ditto tire slashing. Did not report it to police.

Travis' story is a cautionary tale of not listening to one's gut feeling (Travis said he felt frightened) and continuing to engage with a highly disordered person and continue a sexual relationship even though the relationship caused much emotional pain. That's not blaming Travis, that's understanding the full scope of the situation. TA's case reminds me so much of the Ryan Poston murder case and the killer is a lot like JA. His killer was recently sentenced to 40 years in prison for murdering him, shooting him 6 times.

Leaving aside everything else, including the fact Travis did call the police and did speak with Samantha about the tire slashings, and that he didn't know the extent of her stalking behavior until days before she left Mesa...

He in fact did not have a sexual relationship with her after she left Mesa. The May 10th recording was spliced, and there is zero evidence the phone sex part even happened after she left. There is plenty of evidence in the post-Mesa texts that he didn't respond to her sexual hints and innuendos, and it is a fact he wasn't interested enough in her sexually or otherwise to go visit her, despite intense pressure from her to do so.

Why wouldn't he consider himself safe from her at that point? She was 1,000 miles away.

Travis never pursued her. She went after him, repeatedly, directly and indirectly, with varying degrees of hostility and malice. He tried to make her stop. Repeatedly. In nice ways, then in not so nice ways.

I think it's easy to forget that while the had nothing else in her life to focus on, Travis had a very full life, and especially after she left Mesa, the simply didn't figure very prominently in it. In addition to his many social and business obligations, Travis was struggling financially and trying to right those problems, facing career-ending intrigue in his PPL dealings, and trying desperately to get on a path to marriage, though he hadn't yet conquered his fear of commitment.

The kept trying to insinuate herself into his life, Travis kept pushing her back, most often by simply ignoring her & staying out of touch. She responded by escalating her intrusions, he responded to those intrusions with increasing and plain spoken anger.

Her intrusions weren't the kind he could make go away by ignoring her. She was in his computer, sending emails and IM's in his name, and who knows what else. What was he supposed to do?

I've posted before what I think may have happened in early to mid-May. That he thought she'd intercepted texts between himself and CL, told her she "was dead to me," she responded with the "accidental " texts on May 9, he warned her then that his mercy had run out and that it was going to get rough for her.

I think his last ditch effort was setting her up on May 13-14, the NA55 texting event, a 2-fer: to prove she was snooping him online, and to expose her MariaM fraud. He thought that would be enough to make her realize she'd been caught, and to make her stop. He cut her off on MAY 22, a date the acknowledges was the end of their "relationship." What more was he supposed to do?

She didn't stop. She hacked into his FB yet again, even after admitting to her MariaM fraud, and he caught her sending something no doubt poisonous "down the pipeline."

And even THEN, caught red handed, she wouldn't admit to what she had done. Instead, consistent with her MO, she seems to have tried to divert him by upping the ante, whatever she pulled on May 24-25.

She WANTED Travis to get angry, another pattern of hers, no doubt because it put him off balance and made her feel powerful and in control. The pushed all his buttons on May 26. She knew exactly what she was doing, IMO. What she didn't expect was for him to have meant what he said about not wanting her in his life. Utter and absolute rejection, AFTER he tried everything else, and AFTER she had made it clear she was incapable of ever telling him the truth about anything, something he found literally intolerable.

Fwiw, apparently even juror 17 thought the was manipulating Travis on May 26...

 

[Hope4More]

At no point did I ever say JA shouldn't spend life in prison with no parole. In fact, that's exactly where I always said she should and would be, and now she is. That is as much justice as any crime victim can get because they can't be brought back to life.

Danielle Van Dam's parents weren't in a dysfunctional dating relationship with their daughter's killer and their 'faults' had nothing to do with the fact they lived a couple houses away from a pedophile.

Travis was in a very dysfunctional situation with his eventual killer, over a period of time. Travis could have walked away, refused to talk to the manipulator, changed the locks on his doors, changed the garage door code, lock up the patio/doggy door entrance, and change his phone number. He didn't do any of those things. Travis could have reported JA's stalking to the police. He didn't. Ditto tire slashing. Did not report it to police.

Travis' story is a cautionary tale of not listening to one's gut feeling (Travis said he felt frightened) and continuing to engage with a highly disordered person and continue a sexual relationship even though the relationship caused much emotional pain. That's not blaming Travis, that's understanding the full scope of the situation. TA's case reminds me so much of the Ryan Poston murder case and the killer is a lot like JA. His killer was recently sentenced to 40 years in prison for murdering him, shooting him 6 times.

Last, the before of it. Travis was flawed, we all are, and I don't hear anyone denying that reality. What I object to is holding him accountable for what he was denied the opportunity to change or to overcome, and that is the obviously deeply wounded self that made him so vulnerable to the .

 

[Hope4More]

Alrighty sister sledge (hammer lol ), you've finally convinced me to dive back into the videos, since seeing your post yesterday I'm now up to Bishop Vernon's redirect (full disclosure, I skipped the ending of Geffner, a girl can only take so much meaningless blather), Dr. DeMarte will be the next witness, looking quite forward to her dissection of Ms. Murderess. Thanks for the push, unintended as it was.

That one is all on you, Sister Geevee.

 

[LinasK]

Thanks so much for correcting the notion that TA used words that were abusive (and not called for) and that his behavior somehow accelerated his death. TA had already tried everything to get her out of his life. He had been trying for a year. He never threatened or attempted to kill her. He used words...in a text message. JA was the only one responsible for accelerating TA's death, and she planned it with calculation and deliberation.

Exactly! Calling someone fat to lower their self esteem=abuse. Calling someone the b word/*advertiser censored*/3hole wonder when they use sex to manipulate you and refuse to get out of your life after wrecking it is NOT!

 

[Madeleine74]

He in fact did not have a sexual relationship with her after she left Mesa.

They had phone sex and when she came to see him in June (the day she killed him) they had multiple sexual interludes.


The May 10th recording was spliced, and there is zero evidence the phone sex part even happened after she left. There is plenty of evidence in the post-Mesa texts that he didn't respond to her sexual hints and innuendos, and it is a fact he wasn't interested enough in her sexually or otherwise to go visit her, despite intense pressure from her to do so.

He didn't have to, she delivered herself to him like a pizza. But if she was there and available, they would have sex because she threw herself at him and he didn't say 'no.'


Why wouldn't he consider himself safe from her at that point? She was 1,000 miles away.

He might have, but he wasn't safe, not in the least. The incidents of tire slashing and other stalking behavior are indicative of escalating behaviors, even after she moved away. Her contact didn't stop.


Travis never pursued her. She went after him, repeatedly, directly and indirectly, with varying degrees of hostility and malice. He tried to make her stop. Repeatedly. In nice ways, then in not so nice ways.

He did pursue her in the very beginning, though she then took the lead and went after him with a vengeance.


I think it's easy to forget that while the had nothing else in her life to focus on, Travis had a very full life, and especially after she left Mesa, the simply didn't figure very prominently in it. In addition to his many social and business obligations, Travis was struggling financially and trying to right those problems, facing career-ending intrigue in his PPL dealings, and trying desperately to get on a path to marriage, though he hadn't yet conquered his fear of commitment.

Neither here nor there. There was never an argument made that he was trying to lure her to him.


The kept trying to insinuate herself into his life, Travis kept pushing her back, most often by simply ignoring her & staying out of touch. She responded by escalating her intrusions, he responded to those intrusions with increasing and plain spoken anger.

Yes, I know. We all know that. It only made her more determined. He was still responding and that was the kicker. Poor Travis hadn't read Gavin DeBecker's books or seen his interviews to learn that talking back to the stalker keeps the stalker engaged.


Her intrusions weren't the kind he could make go away by ignoring her. She was in his computer, sending emails and IM's in his name, and who knows what else. What was he supposed to do?

Seriously?

1. Close down his social media account(s) and start new ones AND change the passwords
2. Ditto to his email accounts.
3. Change his cell phone number and change the password on the cell provider account & phone to something she could never know or guess
4. Change the password at the bios level on his computer in addition to operating system level password change (Ctrl-Alt-Del then change password)
5. If necessary, get rid of his laptop or at least change out the hard drive
6. Change every password on every.single.system. that includes all sites used, web sites created or maintained. Just a scorched earth policy.
7. Alert all social media and email sites about a possible hacked account.
8. Go to the bank and get his accounts changed, new ATM card, new credit cards, have a security note attached to his account record, new passwords for online banking...basically a complete 'do over'. Pain the arse? Absolutely. But necessary!

It's the exact same actions one needs to take in a possible identity theft situation. He already knew she could get into his accounts and he did nothing about it. In addition he should have:

1. Started locking the doors, front & back (they never locked the doors to that house) after changing the locks on every door to the house.
2. Change the keycode to the garage and only allow the people who lived there to have it, and no one else.
3. Lock the patio door so she couldn't come in through the doggy door (I used to have this same type of doggy door)
4. Do not answer texts, calls, emails or anything. Absolutely no contact at all.

And if it was really serious:

1. Stay somewhere else, somewhere the stalker doesn't know or can guess, for several days if necessary
2. File a restraining order
3. Ask the police to keep a watch on the house


Again, this is not about 'blaming' Travis, but yes, there were things Travis could have done that he didn't do, either because he just didn't want to, didn't know his options, didn't understand how disordered JA was, didn't think it would keep escalating, thought he could handle it/her, thought she'd simply stop or any of other several possibilities. His time ran out and as sadly happens to lots of people who are stalked by a mentally unstable, raging sicko, she murdered him. This, unfortunately, is all too common, though it's usually men who are the killers.

 

[TrialWatcher]

The fact is that Travis did have a sexual relationship with Arias. Fact. To suggest the sex tape can be spliced away - Travis' voice - with texts to back up words said - is opinion not based on fact.

 

[TrialWatcher]

Travis used words that were out of character, stemmed from justifiable fury and were based in anger and hurt. Some of the phrases were horrible and more than a tad hypocritical sexually. They were a one-off incident from a man at the end of his tether.

 

[TexMex]

Exactly! Calling someone fat to lower their self esteem=abuse. Calling someone the b word/*advertiser censored*/3hole wonder when they use sex to manipulate you and refuse to get out of your life after wrecking it is NOT!

But he was the one taking advantage of those three holes, freely offered by her, then he uses that to shame her when he's angry?

He's also chasing tail, sleeping with CL (who won't even read the Book of Mormon he gave her), sexting others and calling her a *advertiser censored*?

He was 30 but fighting like a jealous teenager with a mentally unstable person. Any contact at all with these BPD leaves open, in their minds, possibly working out the relationship.

 

[Madeleine74]

I'm so glad Juan didn't make excuses as he looked at the facts in the case and dealt with the good, the bad, the ugly. Misogyny has no place and I always find it ironic that even in 2016 women are often as harsh or more harsh on their own gender. Somehow the words that no mother would ever want to be used on her own daughter, *no matter what,* are okay when it's used on someone who has a mental or personality disorder and their behaviors are unacceptable. Especially if it's a female. I don't care what the disordered JA thought or didn't think. I, and many others, including Juan Martinez, saw those utterances by Travis as what they were. Nothing more, nothing less, no excuses.

Oh the hatred of disordered BPD fembots--they are more evil than anything conjured up and they are worse than the devil himself. And of course it's okay to use those words because "the B* deserves it." Talk about a double standard. If someone determined your daughter 'deserved it,' would that make it okay? I say no! It certainly doesn't make what the killer did after that okay, but those words were used on her before she ever became "the killer." And it certainly doesn't make the victim look any better either.

 

[Hope4More]

They had phone sex and when she came to see him in June (the day she killed him) they had multiple sexual interludes.


The May 10th recording was spliced, and there is zero evidence the phone sex part even happened after she left. There is plenty of evidence in the post-Mesa texts that he didn't respond to her sexual hints and innuendos, and it is a fact he wasn't interested enough in her sexually or otherwise to go visit her, despite intense pressure from her to do so.

He didn't have to, she delivered herself to him like a pizza. But if she was there and available, they would have sex because she threw herself at him and he didn't say 'no.'


Why wouldn't he consider himself safe from her at that point? She was 1,000 miles away.

He might have, but he wasn't safe, not in the least. The incidents of tire slashing and other stalking behavior are indicative of escalating behaviors, even after she moved away. Her contact didn't stop.


Travis never pursued her. She went after him, repeatedly, directly and indirectly, with varying degrees of hostility and malice. He tried to make her stop. Repeatedly. In nice ways, then in not so nice ways.

He did pursue her in the very beginning, though she then took the lead and went after him with a vengeance.


I think it's easy to forget that while the had nothing else in her life to focus on, Travis had a very full life, and especially after she left Mesa, the simply didn't figure very prominently in it. In addition to his many social and business obligations, Travis was struggling financially and trying to right those problems, facing career-ending intrigue in his PPL dealings, and trying desperately to get on a path to marriage, though he hadn't yet conquered his fear of commitment.

Neither here nor there. There was never an argument made that he was trying to lure her to him.


The kept trying to insinuate herself into his life, Travis kept pushing her back, most often by simply ignoring her & staying out of touch. She responded by escalating her intrusions, he responded to those intrusions with increasing and plain spoken anger.

Yes, I know. We all know that. It only made her more determined. He was still responding and that was the kicker. Poor Travis hadn't read Gavin DeBecker's books or seen his interviews to learn that talking back to the stalker keeps the stalker engaged.


Her intrusions weren't the kind he could make go away by ignoring her. She was in his computer, sending emails and IM's in his name, and who knows what else. What was he supposed to do?

Seriously?

1. Close down his social media account(s) and start new ones AND change the passwords
2. Ditto to his email accounts.
3. Change his cell phone number and change the password on the cell provider account & phone to something she could never know or guess
4. Change the password at the bios level on his computer in addition to operating system level password change (Ctrl-Alt-Del then change password)
5. If necessary, get rid of his laptop or at least change out the hard drive
6. Change every password on every.single.system. that includes all sites used, web sites created or maintained. Just a scorched earth policy.
7. Alert all social media and email sites about a possible hacked account.
8. Go to the bank and get his accounts changed, new ATM card, new credit cards, have a security note attached to his account record, new passwords for online banking...basically a complete 'do over'. Pain the arse? Absolutely. But necessary!

It's the exact same actions one needs to take in a possible identity theft situation. He already knew she could get into his accounts and he did nothing about it. In addition he should have:

1. Started locking the doors, front & back (they never locked the doors to that house) after changing the locks on every door to the house.
2. Change the keycode to the garage and only allow the people who lived there to have it, and no one else.
3. Lock the patio door so she couldn't come in through the doggy door (I used to have this same type of doggy door)
4. Do not answer texts, calls, emails or anything. Absolutely no contact at all.

And if it was really serious:

1. Stay somewhere else, somewhere the stalker doesn't know or can guess, for several days if necessary
2. File a restraining order
3. Ask the police to keep a watch on the house


Again, this is not about 'blaming' Travis, but yes, there were things Travis could have done that he didn't do, either because he just didn't want to, didn't know his options, didn't understand how disordered JA was, didn't think it would keep escalating, thought he could handle it/her, thought she'd simply stop or any of other several possibilities. His time ran out and as sadly happens to lots of people who are stalked by a mentally unstable, raging sicko, she murdered him. This, unfortunately, is all too common, though it's usually men who are the killers.

You don't know when they had phone sex. Neither do I. That recording was spliced- as in, multiple phone conversations were on it.

I'm not going to get into the sex or no sex or coerced sex on June 4th thing again, except to say nobody will ever convince me that TA didn't mean what he said on May 22, and May 26, or that he was anything other than scared when the was there on June 4. Having spent hundreds of hours going through everything that's out there, I have a foundation for that belief, and am good with it.

I don't believe he pursued her in the beginning, and there's plenty of evidence it was the other way around.

What Travis thought about his being safe is what matters, and it was a reasonable assumption, IMO.

All the things you list about computers and doors. He did keep changing his passwords. She kept on hacking them. She wasn't an anonymous identity thief. He thought reasoning with her would make her stop, and when that didn't work, then catching her and shaming her, in essence, would. He didn't know she was a BPD sociopath capable of murder, fgs. It's easy to say after the fact what he should have done. I think it's fairer to look at it from how he might have seen it at the time.

As for doors, etc. She was 1,000 miles away, and be had no reason to be concerned about anyone else.


That said, after months and months of going over and over all of these same points, it's pretty clear who here believes what and why, and those opinions haven't budged for a very long while & I don't expect any will now.

So, please don't take it personally if I bow out of this round. I'm just cooked, fried, overdone with this part. Appeals and the legal stuff...still very much interested in that.

 

[LinasK]

I'm so glad Juan didn't make excuses as he looked at the facts in the case and dealt with the good, the bad, the ugly. Misogyny has no place and I always find it ironic that even in 2016 women are often as harsh or more harsh on their own gender. Somehow the words that no mother would ever want to be used on her own daughter, *no matter what,* are okay when it's used on someone who has a mental or personality disorder and their behaviors are unacceptable. Especially if it's a female. I don't care what the disordered JA thought or didn't think. I, and many others, including Juan Martinez, saw those utterances by Travis as what they were. Nothing more, nothing less, no excuses.

Oh the hatred of disordered BPD fembots--they are more evil than anything conjured up and they are worse than the devil himself. And of course it's okay to use those words because "the B* deserves it." Talk about a double standard. If someone determined your daughter 'deserved it,' would that make it okay? I say no! It certainly doesn't make what the killer did after that okay, but those words were used on her before she ever became "the killer." And it certainly doesn't make the victim look any better either.

Do you realize that I am female? (My avatar is of my missing cousin- who is a male). I am also a Liberal feminist not a "FEMBOT", and yes I do have a daughter. Good luck trying to label me a misogynist!!! I'm not Sandy Arias. Her daughter is a B*****, a *advertiser censored*, and apparently a 3hole wonder. Her behavior prior to the murder still merited it.
One more thing- my love for my daughter is Conditional- if she ever murders somebody, she loses my love and will have to face the consequences of her actions herself. No lying or covering up for her here!

 

[Hope4More]

I'm so glad Juan didn't make excuses as he looked at the facts in the case and dealt with the good, the bad, the ugly. Misogyny has no place and I always find it ironic that even in 2016 women are often as harsh or more harsh on their own gender. Somehow the words that no mother would ever want to be used on her own daughter, *no matter what,* are okay when it's used on someone who has a mental or personality disorder and their behaviors are unacceptable. Especially if it's a female. I don't care what the disordered JA thought or didn't think. I, and many others, including Juan Martinez, saw those utterances by Travis as what they were. Nothing more, nothing less, no excuses.

Oh the hatred of disordered BPD fembots--they are more evil than anything conjured up and they are worse than the devil himself. And of course it's okay to use those words because "the B* deserves it." Talk about a double standard. If someone determined your daughter 'deserved it,' would that make it okay? I say no! It certainly doesn't make what the killer did after that okay, but those words were used on her before she ever became "the killer." And it certainly doesn't make the victim look any better either.

Disagreeing with the label "abusive" for those words does not make one a misogynist, nor guilty of a double standard, nor a hater of the mentally ill, nor anything other than folks who don't share your opinion.

Would I want my daughter to be called those words? Of course not. But if my daughter had damaged and degraded and assaulted someone to the degree the did Travis, I probably would tell her to consider herself fortunate she escaped with just words being hurled at her.

 

[TrialWatcher]

They had phone sex. The texts back up the phone sex. It was Travis' voice saying Travis' words - interacting with Arias in a graphically sexual way. What matters is what the jury believed. They believed they had sex and phone sex. Both juries. Juan Martinez did too. Time-stamped photos back it up. If two naked people, photographing each other, with KY in the background, in the most intimately sexual manner isn't evidence of sexual interaction, I don't know what would be enough. Add a sexual relationship, texts and a tape of TRAVIS' voice - undisputed - saying sexual things - that is an incredible amount of evidence to ignore or dismiss without a jot of proof otherwise.

 

[Hope4More]

Do you realize that I am female? I am also Liberal, and yes I do have a daughter. Good luck trying to label me a misogynist!!! I'm not Sandy Arias. Her daughter is a B*****, a *advertiser censored*, and apparently a 3hole wonder. Her behavior prior to the murder still merited it.

Lol. Tell us what you *really think.

 

[LinasK]

Disagreeing with the label "abusive" for those words does not make one a misogynist, nor guilty of a double standard, nor a hater of the mentally ill, nor anything other than folks who don't share your opinion.

Would I want my daughter to be called those words? Of course not. But if my daughter had damaged and degraded and assaulted someone to the degree the did Travis, I probably would tell her to consider herself fortunate she escaped with just words being hurled at her.

Excellent post!!! I agree with the whole thing.:clap::clap::clap::goodpost:

 

[Hope4More]

They had phone sex. The texts back up the phone sex. It was Travis' voice saying Travis' words - interacting with Arias in a graphically sexual way. What matters is what the jury believed. They believed they had sex and phone sex. Both juries. Juan Martinez did too. Time-stamped photos back it up. If two naked people, photographing each other, with KY in the background, in the most intimately sexual manner isn't evidence of sexual interaction, I don't know what would be enough. Add a sexual relationship, texts and a tape of TRAVIS' voice - undisputed - saying sexual things - that is an incredible amount of evidence to ignore or dismiss without a jot of proof otherwise.

Trial. You keep saying what the jury believed. On what do you base your certainty?

The only thing we know for sure the juries believed was that she was guilty of premeditated murder, and that only juror 17 in PPL didn't think she deserved the DP. The jury wasn't asked to take separate votes on the evidence.

 

[TrialWatcher]

But he was the one taking advantage of those three holes, freely offered by her, then he uses that to shame her when he's angry?

He's also chasing tail, sleeping with CL (who won't even read the Book of Mormon he gave her), sexting others and calling her a *advertiser censored*?

He was 30 but fighting like a jealous teenager with a mentally unstable person. Any contact at all with these BPD leaves open, in their minds, possibly working out the relationship.

Travis was a blameless victim of murder by a psychopath. That has to be a majority view outside and inside this forum. He was a real man with real flaws. Like everyone else - not a perfect person. Sexual hypocrisy was evident from both parties. Travis' wasn't a saint and excusing his every word is unnecessary. His reasons for using a few of those phrases are easy to understand. Not to justify.

" But he was the one taking advantage of those three holes, freely offered by her, then he uses that to shame her when he's angry? " - TEXMEX

It's the sexual shaming part many people would have trouble with - for a number of reasons. Juan Martinez thought so too. I agree.

 

[geevee]

That one is all on you, Sister Geevee.

I'm confused about something, Abe says he met Arias late Aug. 2006 at a Super Saturday PPL event (sitting by herself in the executive director's section with apparently no ED having invited her into that section) - I thought she hadn't gotten involved in PPL until the Fall and the event she met Travis at was her first exposure to any PPL event? Did I miss her testifying about having met Abe before Travis?