Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #6

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FWIW, there were TWO trips to OKC for convention--one in June or July 2007 and the second, mid-March 2008. They flew the first time, and did Mormon-related sightseeing. They also did some sightseeing on the 2008 trip--Travis texted about it to others, so it did happen. Wasn't a big deal, just some side trips on the way back and forth. Only in the 's mind was it some grand adventure.

Idk. I think the side trips were things they both enjoyed. Many of them on The List:

Roswell
Carlsbad Caverns
Cattlemen's Steakhouse
Canyon deChelly National Monument
Route 66?

Things not on list
OKC Bombing Memorial
OKC Temple
 
Tru dat! But thank goodness JM got that info and ran with it. Scary what would have happened if things had worked out otherwise...

I have re-read JM's book a couple times now, and each time something new strikes me as ... I guess the best word is "kismet?"

IOW, given that she was such a gifted liar, I wonder if a prosecutor less experienced and detail-oriented than JM would have been able to show her for what she was, enabling a jury to convict her beyond a reasonable doubt.

Thank goodness we'll never have to find out. But in my schadenfreude mindset, I am extremely happy that JA thought she was smart enough to get one over on everyone, and failed so utterly and supremely.

I do think that without JM being so on his game, she might have gotten off with M2, and I think she was banking on that right up until the verdict was read...

Sometimes I think it was also "luck", as defined by baseball's Branch Rickey

Good luck is what is left over after intelligence and effort have combined at their best. Negligence or indifference are usually reviewed from an unlucky seat. The law of cause and effect and causality both work the same with inexorable exactitudes. Luck is the residue of design.”
 
Idk. I think the side trips were things they both enjoyed. Many of them on The List:

Roswell
Carlsbad Caverns
Cattlemen's Steakhouse
Canyon deChelly National Monument
Route 66?

Things not on list
OKC Bombing Memorial
OKC Temple


I'm sure he enjoyed the trips. And no doubt the 1000 places book and idea was his, not hers. But, if you look at the itins for their trips, almost all but the more local destinations were just side trips tacked onto PPL business trips. There were no even week long sight seeing just vacations. For me, another indication of what the trips were and were not.

The 2008 OKC trip, as I've posted about before, was one example. She began planning for it nagging him about it in Jan 2008. He told her then he wasn't sure he'd even be able to afford to go. Later on he thought seriously about inviting Mimi for a group road trip there.

Just wasn't the big deal to him that it was to her, imo, and by spring 2008, he didn't want to travel alone with her at all.

ETA. One difference being travel was a routine part of TA's business life. Travel to her was what she hadn't earned and couldn't afford but thought she was entitled to, and it sure beat hanging around alone in the house she wasn't making payments on, or in a rented room for which she was for weeks too lazy or broke to even buy a bed.
 
I'm sure he enjoyed the trips. And no doubt the 1000 places book and idea was his, not hers. But, if you look at the itins for their trips, almost all but the more local destinations were just side trips tacked onto PPL business trips. There were no even week long sight seeing just vacations. For me, another indication of what the trips were and were not.

The 2008 OKC trip, as I've posted about before, was one example. She began planning for it nagging him about it in Jan 2008. He told her then he wasn't sure he'd even be able to afford to go. Later on he thought seriously about inviting Mimi for a group road trip there.

Just wasn't the big deal to him that it was to her, imo, and by spring 2008, he didn't want to travel alone with her at all.

Yet, he did. In the Spring of 2008. Alone.

Checking things off the list together. Having sex. Jmo but sounds good to me.

IMO if he didn't want to travel with her he would have got in his car and left, she could ride with someone else. He certainly could have invited Mimi. But he invited the person he knew would keep him warm at night.

Yes...he travelled a lot. She did feel entitled. I'm sure she wasn't happy about being the girl good enough to hang with on the road but at the convention he ignores her.
Jmo but I think she figured every trip they took forged a tighter bond between them and it would finally convince him she was a marriage material Mormon girl after all
 
Yet, he did. In the Spring of 2008. Alone.

Checking things off the list together. Having sex. Jmo but sounds good to me.

IMO if he didn't want to travel with her he would have got in his car and left, she could ride with someone else. He certainly could have invited Mimi. But he invited the person he knew would keep him warm at night.


Well, he could have walked there too, or bicyled, or hitch-hiked, all about as reasonable as saying he could have left her on the curb and driven off without her.

He tried to figure out a way to not be alone with her on that trip, it didn't work out. If he was so interested in sex roadtrips with her in 2008 why didn't he take her on any? Coulda gone any old time. And BTW, there is nothing but the word of that lying liar that they had sex on that trip. I sincerely doubt they did. He didn't even want to give her his room number at convention, and avoided her like the plague.
 
Well, he could have walked there too, or bicyled, or hitch-hiked, all about as reasonable as saying he could have left her on the curb and driven off without her.

He tried to figure out a way to not be alone with her on that trip, it didn't work out. If he was so interested in sex roadtrips with her in 2008 why didn't he take her on any? Coulda gone any old time. And BTW, there is nothing but the word of that lying liar that they had sex on that trip. I sincerely doubt they did. He didn't even want to give her his room number at convention, and avoided her like the plague.

Why would it not be reasonable if he wanted to avoid her to insist she get there without him as well? It would have been much easier to avoid her if they weren't riding to and from the convention together IMO.

I absolutely believe they had sex on the road trips. After hearing him on the tape recording it's clear that's all she meant to him, sex. He knew she was leaving town soon after they returned. Jmo but he was getting some before she left and told himself that would be the end.
 
Thanks Hope, I really appreciate this, hopefully it's no longer considered a capital case since she didn't get the DP and maybe round about Christmas Maria can deliver the denial wrapped in a shiny bow with a pinwheel on top, a gift from the taxpayers of AZ. I wish on rainbows a lot though. ;)

Kismet is the perfect word, though JM has used the word "providence." Either word applies to being handed those 400 pages and finding the purple folder, among other things.


I have to say one of my absolute favorite moments of both trials was when the verdict was read. She was shocked. I found that very gratifying. Still do. :D

Me too! She was absolutely floored when the verdict was read. I don't know why, Which story did she think the jury would believe? A,B, or C? Another of her verbal vomit during her interviews comes to my mind, when she said (I am paraphrasing) that she is not a liar by nature, and it shouldn't define her because she lied so much in the past.
 
Thanks Hope, I really appreciate this, hopefully it's no longer considered a capital case since she didn't get the DP and maybe round about Christmas Maria can deliver the denial wrapped in a shiny bow with a pinwheel on top, a gift from the taxpayers of AZ. I wish on rainbows a lot though. ;)

Why would it not be reasonable if he wanted to avoid her to insist she get there without him as well? It would have been much easier to avoid her if they weren't riding to and from the convention together IMO.

I absolutely believe they had sex on the road trips. After hearing him on the tape recording it's clear that's all she meant to him, sex. He knew she was leaving town soon after they returned. Jmo but he was getting some before she left and told himself that would be the end.

As do I, TexMex. She was a steady booty call is all. You don't drive to an event with someone and reasonably expect to ignore them. Which goes back to the addicted to each other theory. They weren't done yet. She still held out hope they would be together in the end. Travis was playing with fire but couldn't see it. Because you never think the person you are intimate with would ever end up slaughtering you.
 
I don't think they were having nearly the amount of sex she's led people to believe, Travis was a Mormon trying to stay true to the 'rules', he hardly ever even sexted with her, frankly I think the bathtub/braids/tootsie pop/pop rocks event was the only actual intercourse they shared, and think any other occasion was grinding or hand and mouth (possibly backside but doubtful there too), but I don't even think that was as frequent as the murderess avers.

One other thing came to mind, she was apparently loaded with condoms in the second rental (escape) vehicle so she likely preferred to use them - none were found at the crime scene, no empty packages, nothing in the waste cans, yet she wants everyone to believe they had sex twice that day?
 
I don't think they were having nearly the amount of sex she's led people to believe, Travis was a Mormon trying to stay true to the 'rules', he hardly ever even sexted with her, frankly I think the bathtub/braids/tootsie pop/pop rocks event was the only actual intercourse they shared, and think any other occasion was grinding or hand and mouth (possibly backside but doubtful there too), but I don't even think that was as frequent as the murderess avers.

One other thing came to mind, she was apparently loaded with condoms in the second rental (escape) vehicle so she likely preferred to use them - none were found at the crime scene, no empty packages, nothing in the waste cans, yet she wants everyone to believe they had sex twice that day?

Interesting about the condoms. But if they did use them he probably flushed them after use. The packages could have been put into her purse which was on the bed in one pic IIRC.

As far as sex...IMO all of the above is sex. I've never subscribed to the strict Clintonian definition...
 
Let Travis speak for himself about how he felt, and IMO, his vulnerability not just to the , but to those closest to him who he believed to be his friends.

Paraphrased from his emails to Sky and Chris, end of January, 2007. (I’ll paraphrase their emails to Travis, if anyone would like to know why Travis went ahead and agreed to an “exclusive relationship” with the soon after these emails).


TRAVIS TO SKY: We have never had an argument. We have always gotten along and enjoyed each other’s company. I’ve never said anything in anger to her, ever. If I’ve been rude (referring to ’s manipulation about his *advertiser censored* joke, told to a roommate, not ), it’s because I said something I thought was funny, and maybe it wasn’t taken that way, but as you’ve told me, I’m rough around the edges. I’ve never heard her cry before this either.

Travis mentions being the one to introduce to the church. Says he would usually ask for clarity (about what happened), but “as you guys know they don’t get any more honest than ”. Says: I am not mean to her. I adore her. “In fact, it’s never been easier to be nicer to someone.” “I’ve gone from being intrigued by her to being interested in her to caring for her deeply to knowing I’d be lucky to have her in my life forever.” But I’ve only known her for 4 months. I haven’t asked her to wait, nor have I kept her waiting (reference to Deanna). I think our courtship has been normal.
“
“I am scrambling and worrying and getting so much external advice about how to fix myself I’m about to have a nervous breakdown.” I am aware of what I may lose or have already lost in a great person like . I realize how amazing she is. I know I have a fear of commitment. I’ve made reasonable progress. My selfish side wants her to wait around, but believe it or not I can put the feelings of someone I care about above my own. “I am trying, and it hasn’t been very long. "

(What you are telling and directly to me) makes me wonder who you think I should marry. You’ve told me so many times I need to get married but then you tell her I’m mean abusive and a jerk. Who should I marry then? Someone not as good as her. “So tell me, am I that bad a person, or am I just not good enough for the likes of ?” You’ve irreparably damaged our relationship.

“She’s paranoid this evil person you depicted will someday surface.” She told me she hasn’t seen what you’ve described, but they’re your best friends, why would they say this if not true?

“I am atoning for sins I have not yet committed.”

Three days ago she thought I was a great guy. Now she tells me “I’m someone with major character flaws.” That she just hasn’t experienced the severity of them yet. Guys, I am trying desperately to overcome my problems so I don’t lose something great again. You are kicking me when I’m down, costing me a chance. “It’s one thing if she decides I’m not the one based on who I am or what I’ve done, but this is ridiculous.”

Btw, why on earth would you encourage her to go out with a non-member who has already asked her to throw the church aside so they can have a relationship (referring to John Dixon). “Am I so bad a borderline anti-Mormon is better?” Against my own desires I’ve told her to date other good members so she could see the contrast between me and other Mormon guys, but not non-members. That isn’t OK.

The only thing I ask of you guys is that you apologize to her, so she’s not uncomfortable with you. It would crush her if she thought you no longer respect or like her. I won’t ask you to apologize to me. If you do respond, please address everything so nothing is left unresolved. I love you both so much, and care what you think about me though I usually don’t about what others think, that’s why this hurts. I know everything that went on was well intended. “I know being chided by the likes of me isn’t easy to take because I am the one usually being chided, but I ask you to respect what is being written not the writer.”

(After Sky has emailed, he adds--- I slept on what I wrote, reread it, edited it, made sure I didn’t say it in anger. Take it in the spirit it was meant. I love you both very much)..



TRAVIS TO CHRIS


She () has a major timid streak, and sometimes “her loving ways make her step on toes” rather than just coming directly to me to tell me what’s bothering her, so we can talk things over. I have told her kindly (emphasizes KINDLY again) that she can talk to me about any of her concerns.

I have been honest with her about Deanna. I have tried to work on her issues with me and she promised me she would be upfront and honest with me when she has any problems with me or if she feels a “victim of the T-Dogg.” That’s all I have for her right now, with “the desire to be more available.”

This is the farthest I’ve ever come, and I can’t make promises I’ll get further, but I am trying. If you want to recommend a good guy for her, go ahead. It would suck, but maybe it’s for the best. “If I am not ready to marry her then she deserves to find someone who will. I’m not the best catch in the world, but when I’m ready to be married, I will by then be a much better catch. Good or bad, that’s where I am. I’m not saying that’s good enough for her, it probably isn’t, but that’s where I am. “

I know you meant well. You are forgiven. My passion, ironically, comes from the same place as yours. It broke my heart to hear her crying after talking with you two. You guys made it easy for her to vent, and she did, "she didn’t expect to hear what she did, but took it silently, just like she does with me."

I wasn’t upset about loyalty issues, I was upset because “she is a person with feelings and a heart just like me” and because she is vulnerable and still is.”

Let me come clean about me. Deanna. I was with her for 7 years. 7 years of loving her and wanting it to work, but not being able to commit, and I have feel terrible that she wasted those 7 years because of me. She could have been married a 100 times over, and isn’t, because of me. Now, because of her age and because of how the Church is, her chance of marriage is so much less, and it is my fault, and I can hardly live with myself because of that. What if she has to live a life without love because of me, what if she has to marry a piece of crap. It is more than I can bare. What I have done to her is unpardonable. I have thought in the past few years I am her best shot, but I haven’t been able to get over my “block: about marrying her, and have only made things worse.


I have nearly destroyed the person I love the most, and I don’t know what to do. I still love her and in some ways always will, but will always hurt for her and always feel guilty. I don’t know what to do. When she calls I try to stay surface with her, which rips her to shreds, and it’s all I can do to stop myself from crying on the phone. I do this mostly for her, this acting like an acquaintance, because I don’t want to lead her on, and even though this hurts her and me too. This is what Sky means I think about being unavailable, and she is right.

Deanna made me happy, we had fun together, we knew each other so well it was like being married for years, I still loved her, I know we could have been happy together forever. I feel like I divorced her and did that for no big reason whatsoever. It was “unique and tortuous to dissolve things, but I am solely to blame.”

About . I have always liked on paper. “To be shallow, she looks good period, but we both know she is more than that. She is amazing. Whoever ends up with her, me or someone else, is going to win the wife lotto.” I’ve tried not to let myself get too attached because I respect her more than the others, but that hasn’t stopped her from getting attached to me. “I told her not to expect a lot from me, but she continued to pursue me,” and I have let my walls down a little, and I have been working on separating from Deanna which gives more space for , but not enough to keep her waiting.

I have encouraged her to go date other Church members so she can figure out the difference between loving the gospel I’ve brought into her life, and loving me. I’m genuinely not jealous about her dating other guys, but I do have a problem with (Dixon and someone else) because of their approach, their telling her to reject the Church. I would be jealous of a good Mormon boy, because he would have the potential to take her away from me, but I can’t have my cake and eat it too. And, I was as honest with her about that as you have been with me. The fact is I’m making real progress, and I have real feelings for her is scary and stressful, which is why the timing of you saying what you did and of her coming to me in tears felt so bad.
 
For me, it was and still is impossible to read these heartfelt and soul-baring words by Travis and to come away untouched. I'm going to skip the routine "IMO" and just say flat out, without equivocation, that the man I hear in those words is deeply admirable. He knew he was capable of hurting others, and did his utmost to avoid doing so. He saw the best even in the "friends" who had torched him, who had taken the side of a they barely knew over him, their "dearest" friend. Despite everything he was struggling with about himself and about relationships and commitment, he was able to put the 's feelings above his own, and to be absolutely honest with her. And he was devout enough to believe the might confuse loving the Gospel with loving him.


More to follow.....
 
Let Travis speak for himself about how he felt, and IMO, his vulnerability not just to the , but to those closest to him who he believed to be his friends.

Paraphrased from his emails to Sky and Chris, end of January, 2007. (I’ll paraphrase their emails to Travis, if anyone would like to know why Travis went ahead and agreed to an “exclusive relationship” with the soon after these emails).


TRAVIS TO SKY: We have never had an argument. We have always gotten along and enjoyed each other’s company. I’ve never said anything in anger to her, ever. If I’ve been rude (referring to ’s manipulation about his *advertiser censored* joke, told to a roommate, not ), it’s because I said something I thought was funny, and maybe it wasn’t taken that way, but as you’ve told me, I’m rough around the edges. I’ve never heard her cry before this either.

Travis mentions being the one to introduce to the church. Says he would usually ask for clarity (about what happened), but “as you guys know they don’t get any more honest than ”. Says: I am not mean to her. I adore her. “In fact, it’s never been easier to be nicer to someone.” “I’ve gone from being intrigued by her to being interested in her to caring for her deeply to knowing I’d be lucky to have her in my life forever.” But I’ve only known her for 4 months. I haven’t asked her to wait, nor have I kept her waiting (reference to Deanna). I think our courtship has been normal.
“
“I am scrambling and worrying and getting so much external advice about how to fix myself I’m about to have a nervous breakdown.” I am aware of what I may lose or have already lost in a great person like . I realize how amazing she is. I know I have a fear of commitment. I’ve made reasonable progress. My selfish side wants her to wait around, but believe it or not I can put the feelings of someone I care about above my own. “I am trying, and it hasn’t been very long. "

(What you are telling and directly to me) makes me wonder who you think I should marry. You’ve told me so many times I need to get married but then you tell her I’m mean abusive and a jerk. Who should I marry then? Someone not as good as her. “So tell me, am I that bad a person, or am I just not good enough for the likes of ?” You’ve irreparably damaged our relationship.

“She’s paranoid this evil person you depicted will someday surface.” She told me she hasn’t seen what you’ve described, but they’re your best friends, why would they say this if not true?

“I am atoning for sins I have not yet committed.”

Three days ago she thought I was a great guy. Now she tells me “I’m someone with major character flaws.” That she just hasn’t experienced the severity of them yet. Guys, I am trying desperately to overcome my problems so I don’t lose something great again. You are kicking me when I’m down, costing me a chance. “It’s one thing if she decides I’m not the one based on who I am or what I’ve done, but this is ridiculous.”

Btw, why on earth would you encourage her to go out with a non-member who has already asked her to throw the church aside so they can have a relationship (referring to John Dixon). “Am I so bad a borderline anti-Mormon is better?” Against my own desires I’ve told her to date other good members so she could see the contrast between me and other Mormon guys, but not non-members. That isn’t OK.

The only thing I ask of you guys is that you apologize to her, so she’s not uncomfortable with you. It would crush her if she thought you no longer respect or like her. I won’t ask you to apologize to me. If you do respond, please address everything so nothing is left unresolved. I love you both so much, and care what you think about me though I usually don’t about what others think, that’s why this hurts. I know everything that went on was well intended. “I know being chided by the likes of me isn’t easy to take because I am the one usually being chided, but I ask you to respect what is being written not the writer.”

(After Sky has emailed, he adds--- I slept on what I wrote, reread it, edited it, made sure I didn’t say it in anger. Take it in the spirit it was meant. I love you both very much)..



TRAVIS TO CHRIS


She () has a major timid streak, and sometimes “her loving ways make her step on toes” rather than just coming directly to me to tell me what’s bothering her, so we can talk things over. I have told her kindly (emphasizes KINDLY again) that she can talk to me about any of her concerns.

I have been honest with her about Deanna. I have tried to work on her issues with me and she promised me she would be upfront and honest with me when she has any problems with me or if she feels a “victim of the T-Dogg.” That’s all I have for her right now, with “the desire to be more available.”

This is the farthest I’ve ever come, and I can’t make promises I’ll get further, but I am trying. If you want to recommend a good guy for her, go ahead. It would suck, but maybe it’s for the best. “If I am not ready to marry her then she deserves to find someone who will. I’m not the best catch in the world, but when I’m ready to be married, I will by then be a much better catch. Good or bad, that’s where I am. I’m not saying that’s good enough for her, it probably isn’t, but that’s where I am. “

I know you meant well. You are forgiven. My passion, ironically, comes from the same place as yours. It broke my heart to hear her crying after talking with you two. You guys made it easy for her to vent, and she did, "she didn’t expect to hear what she did, but took it silently, just like she does with me."

I wasn’t upset about loyalty issues, I was upset because “she is a person with feelings and a heart just like me” and because she is vulnerable and still is.”

Let me come clean about me. Deanna. I was with her for 7 years. 7 years of loving her and wanting it to work, but not being able to commit, and I have feel terrible that she wasted those 7 years because of me. She could have been married a 100 times over, and isn’t, because of me. Now, because of her age and because of how the Church is, her chance of marriage is so much less, and it is my fault, and I can hardly live with myself because of that. What if she has to live a life without love because of me, what if she has to marry a piece of crap. It is more than I can bare. What I have done to her is unpardonable. I have thought in the past few years I am her best shot, but I haven’t been able to get over my “block: about marrying her, and have only made things worse.


I have nearly destroyed the person I love the most, and I don’t know what to do. I still love her and in some ways always will, but will always hurt for her and always feel guilty. I don’t know what to do. When she calls I try to stay surface with her, which rips her to shreds, and it’s all I can do to stop myself from crying on the phone. I do this mostly for her, this acting like an acquaintance, because I don’t want to lead her on, and even though this hurts her and me too. This is what Sky means I think about being unavailable, and she is right.

Deanna made me happy, we had fun together, we knew each other so well it was like being married for years, I still loved her, I know we could have been happy together forever. I feel like I divorced her and did that for no big reason whatsoever. It was “unique and tortuous to dissolve things, but I am solely to blame.”

About . I have always liked on paper. “To be shallow, she looks good period, but we both know she is more than that. She is amazing. Whoever ends up with her, me or someone else, is going to win the wife lotto.” I’ve tried not to let myself get too attached because I respect her more than the others, but that hasn’t stopped her from getting attached to me. “I told her not to expect a lot from me, but she continued to pursue me,” and I have let my walls down a little, and I have been working on separating from Deanna which gives more space for , but not enough to keep her waiting.

I have encouraged her to go date other Church members so she can figure out the difference between loving the gospel I’ve brought into her life, and loving me. I’m genuinely not jealous about her dating other guys, but I do have a problem with (Dixon and someone else) because of their approach, their telling her to reject the Church. I would be jealous of a good Mormon boy, because he would have the potential to take her away from me, but I can’t have my cake and eat it too. And, I was as honest with her about that as you have been with me. The fact is I’m making real progress, and I have real feelings for her is scary and stressful, which is why the timing of you saying what you did and of her coming to me in tears felt so bad.


Ugh! These disgust me how respectful he is of her feelings and poor, timid little Jodi and how he respects her and calls himself a borderline. :banghead::banghead:If only he knew then how flipped 180 degrees things were. I wish ALV and Fonseca could've read these and then tried calling him psychologically/verbally abusive!!!:maddening:
Sounds like Jodi wanted to marry him after only two months of knowing him. Trap him and get her hooks in. That's what she was trying with the Hughes's.
 
Ugh! These disgust me how respectful he is of her feelings and poor, timid little Jodi and how he respects her and calls himself a borderline. :banghead::banghead:If only he knew then how flipped 180 degrees things were. I wish ALV and Fonseca could've read these and then tried calling him psychologically/verbally abusive!!!:maddening:
Sounds like Jodi wanted to marry him after only two months of knowing him. Trap him and get her hooks in. That's what she was trying with the Hughes's.

ALV and Fonseca did read these emails. These are the exact same emails both used to depict Travis as an abuser of women.
 
Let Travis speak for himself about how he felt, and IMO, his vulnerability not just to the , but to those closest to him who he believed to be his friends.

Paraphrased from his emails to Sky and Chris, end of January, 2007. (I’ll paraphrase their emails to Travis, if anyone would like to know why Travis went ahead and agreed to an “exclusive relationship” with the soon after these emails).


TRAVIS TO SKY: We have never had an argument. We have always gotten along and enjoyed each other’s company. I’ve never said anything in anger to her, ever. If I’ve been rude (referring to ’s manipulation about his *advertiser censored* joke, told to a roommate, not ), it’s because I said something I thought was funny, and maybe it wasn’t taken that way, but as you’ve told me, I’m rough around the edges. I’ve never heard her cry before this either.

Travis mentions being the one to introduce to the church. Says he would usually ask for clarity (about what happened), but “as you guys know they don’t get any more honest than ”. Says: I am not mean to her. I adore her. “In fact, it’s never been easier to be nicer to someone.” “I’ve gone from being intrigued by her to being interested in her to caring for her deeply to knowing I’d be lucky to have her in my life forever.” But I’ve only known her for 4 months. I haven’t asked her to wait, nor have I kept her waiting (reference to Deanna). I think our courtship has been normal.
“
“I am scrambling and worrying and getting so much external advice about how to fix myself I’m about to have a nervous breakdown.” I am aware of what I may lose or have already lost in a great person like . I realize how amazing she is. I know I have a fear of commitment. I’ve made reasonable progress. My selfish side wants her to wait around, but believe it or not I can put the feelings of someone I care about above my own. “I am trying, and it hasn’t been very long. "

(What you are telling and directly to me) makes me wonder who you think I should marry. You’ve told me so many times I need to get married but then you tell her I’m mean abusive and a jerk. Who should I marry then? Someone not as good as her. “So tell me, am I that bad a person, or am I just not good enough for the likes of ?” You’ve irreparably damaged our relationship.

“She’s paranoid this evil person you depicted will someday surface.” She told me she hasn’t seen what you’ve described, but they’re your best friends, why would they say this if not true?

“I am atoning for sins I have not yet committed.”

Three days ago she thought I was a great guy. Now she tells me “I’m someone with major character flaws.” That she just hasn’t experienced the severity of them yet. Guys, I am trying desperately to overcome my problems so I don’t lose something great again. You are kicking me when I’m down, costing me a chance. “It’s one thing if she decides I’m not the one based on who I am or what I’ve done, but this is ridiculous.”

Btw, why on earth would you encourage her to go out with a non-member who has already asked her to throw the church aside so they can have a relationship (referring to John Dixon). “Am I so bad a borderline anti-Mormon is better?” Against my own desires I’ve told her to date other good members so she could see the contrast between me and other Mormon guys, but not non-members. That isn’t OK.

The only thing I ask of you guys is that you apologize to her, so she’s not uncomfortable with you. It would crush her if she thought you no longer respect or like her. I won’t ask you to apologize to me. If you do respond, please address everything so nothing is left unresolved. I love you both so much, and care what you think about me though I usually don’t about what others think, that’s why this hurts. I know everything that went on was well intended. “I know being chided by the likes of me isn’t easy to take because I am the one usually being chided, but I ask you to respect what is being written not the writer.”

(After Sky has emailed, he adds--- I slept on what I wrote, reread it, edited it, made sure I didn’t say it in anger. Take it in the spirit it was meant. I love you both very much)..



TRAVIS TO CHRIS


She () has a major timid streak, and sometimes “her loving ways make her step on toes” rather than just coming directly to me to tell me what’s bothering her, so we can talk things over. I have told her kindly (emphasizes KINDLY again) that she can talk to me about any of her concerns.

I have been honest with her about Deanna. I have tried to work on her issues with me and she promised me she would be upfront and honest with me when she has any problems with me or if she feels a “victim of the T-Dogg.” That’s all I have for her right now, with “the desire to be more available.”

This is the farthest I’ve ever come, and I can’t make promises I’ll get further, but I am trying. If you want to recommend a good guy for her, go ahead. It would suck, but maybe it’s for the best. “If I am not ready to marry her then she deserves to find someone who will. I’m not the best catch in the world, but when I’m ready to be married, I will by then be a much better catch. Good or bad, that’s where I am. I’m not saying that’s good enough for her, it probably isn’t, but that’s where I am. “

I know you meant well. You are forgiven. My passion, ironically, comes from the same place as yours. It broke my heart to hear her crying after talking with you two. You guys made it easy for her to vent, and she did, "she didn’t expect to hear what she did, but took it silently, just like she does with me."

I wasn’t upset about loyalty issues, I was upset because “she is a person with feelings and a heart just like me” and because she is vulnerable and still is.”

Let me come clean about me. Deanna. I was with her for 7 years. 7 years of loving her and wanting it to work, but not being able to commit, and I have feel terrible that she wasted those 7 years because of me. She could have been married a 100 times over, and isn’t, because of me. Now, because of her age and because of how the Church is, her chance of marriage is so much less, and it is my fault, and I can hardly live with myself because of that. What if she has to live a life without love because of me, what if she has to marry a piece of crap. It is more than I can bare. What I have done to her is unpardonable. I have thought in the past few years I am her best shot, but I haven’t been able to get over my “block: about marrying her, and have only made things worse.


I have nearly destroyed the person I love the most, and I don’t know what to do. I still love her and in some ways always will, but will always hurt for her and always feel guilty. I don’t know what to do. When she calls I try to stay surface with her, which rips her to shreds, and it’s all I can do to stop myself from crying on the phone. I do this mostly for her, this acting like an acquaintance, because I don’t want to lead her on, and even though this hurts her and me too. This is what Sky means I think about being unavailable, and she is right.

Deanna made me happy, we had fun together, we knew each other so well it was like being married for years, I still loved her, I know we could have been happy together forever. I feel like I divorced her and did that for no big reason whatsoever. It was “unique and tortuous to dissolve things, but I am solely to blame.”

About . I have always liked on paper. “To be shallow, she looks good period, but we both know she is more than that. She is amazing. Whoever ends up with her, me or someone else, is going to win the wife lotto.” I’ve tried not to let myself get too attached because I respect her more than the others, but that hasn’t stopped her from getting attached to me. “I told her not to expect a lot from me, but she continued to pursue me,” and I have let my walls down a little, and I have been working on separating from Deanna which gives more space for , but not enough to keep her waiting.

I have encouraged her to go date other Church members so she can figure out the difference between loving the gospel I’ve brought into her life, and loving me. I’m genuinely not jealous about her dating other guys, but I do have a problem with (Dixon and someone else) because of their approach, their telling her to reject the Church. I would be jealous of a good Mormon boy, because he would have the potential to take her away from me, but I can’t have my cake and eat it too. And, I was as honest with her about that as you have been with me. The fact is I’m making real progress, and I have real feelings for her is scary and stressful, which is why the timing of you saying what you did and of her coming to me in tears felt so bad.


Wow, not having read this before, I am stunned at how much there is so much going on in these exchanges!

First, I can't believe how gracious and forgiving he is his regarding his meddling friends. While I can accept that later on they made him aware of her unique brand of crazy, they did a lot of damage on the front end. I doubt that to this day they understand that. Who knows how things would have transpired had they simply let things play out? And who knows how he would have dealt with JA had his judgment (and sense of self) not already been called into question by his trusted friends? SMH

Second (BBM), I always thought the "wife lottery" thing was another lie, but he really said that? OMG!
 
ALV and Fonseca did read these emails. These are the exact same emails both used to depict Travis as an abuser of women.

Wow then! That's bizarroland, like the Twighlight Zone. He did nothing but praise her in these emails and show how he tried to avoid hurting her.
 
Wow, not having read this before, I am stunned at how much there is so much going on in these exchanges!

First, I can't believe how gracious and forgiving he is his regarding his meddling friends. While I can accept that later on they made him aware of her unique brand of crazy, they did a lot of damage on the front end. I doubt that to this day they understand that. Who knows how things would have transpired had they simply let things play out? And who knows how he would have dealt with JA had his judgment (and sense of self) not already been called into question by his trusted friends? SMH

Second (BBM), I always thought the "wife lottery" thing was another lie, but he really said that? OMG!


It gets worse, at least from Sky. Even after Travis wrote like this to her, her first and second response was to keep up her profoundly cutting criticism of him. She absolutely believed the over him, and held him responsible for the feelings the was expressing. Chris was more charitable, and seemed to know he and Sky--I suspect mostly Sky, had indeed stepped over the line.

I'm convinced the only reason Travis ever attempted a relationship with the was because of this assault on him by his "friends."
 
Wow then! That's bizarroland, like the Twighlight Zone. He did nothing but praise her in these emails and show how he tried to avoid hurting her.


Reading the full emails IMO reveals a great deal, not the least, how absolutely unethical and despicable both ALV and Fonseca are for taking a few phrases entirely out of context--which they had to have known, and ignoring 99% of what he wrote.
 
So if the Hughes's were campaigning so hard for Jodi, when/what exactly was the catalyst to make her eavesdrop on them and them kick her out of their house??? They were on her side...
 
Back to the "wife lottery," how did JA become privy to him saying that to the Hugheses? Did TA actually share that with her? or did the Hugheses tell her? Or did she hack into these emails?

Wondering...
 
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