Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #7

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
She would have been if not arrested when she was- she had another gun and knives in her car at the time of arrest in Yreka. She was more vicious in her manner of death- the overkill with 3 different methods than somebody like Casey Anthony. That's what is her lure.
That's a belief, but it's not a fact she would have killed again. She might have killed again, if she had the chance, or she might not have killed again. Serial killers are identified by what they actually did (3 or more murders and some other criteria) not just having weapons and a rental car. Carrying out a murder viciously is not the definition of a serial killer either. Some can 'overkill' one time and not kill again. It's possible she didn't have the level of control she thought she would at the time of the murder (maybe the gun jammed at first) and she went all rageaholic. Or maybe she did intend to make it as vicious as she could. Either way, saying she would have killed again is conjecture, not fact.
 
Yes. It's the State's job to officially reject it. IIRC Juan spoke with the family and informed them of the offer by Jodi to plead guilty to Second degree, avoid a trial and avoid her threats to damage Travis's reputation.
But right, the State never offered a deal like that. It was the defense that proposed the plea


I'm pretty sure the wrote at least 2 of the 3 "offers" herself. The second one, in December 2008, was written when she went pro per, and the 3rd was definitely written in -ese.
 
It's been a while since I visited WS. Hoping to find a new interesting case. Any suggestions? Missing everyone here.

And has JA finally melted or frozen yet in her cozy cell?
 
That's a belief, but it's not a fact she would have killed again. She might have killed again, if she had the chance, or she might not have killed again. Serial killers are identified by what they actually did (3 or more murders and some other criteria) not just having weapons and a rental car. Carrying out a murder viciously is not the definition of a serial killer either. Some can 'overkill' one time and not kill again. It's possible she didn't have the level of control she thought she would at the time of the murder (maybe the gun jammed at first) and she went all rageaholic. Or maybe she did intend to make it as vicious as she could. Either way, saying she would have killed again is conjecture, not fact.

BBM - https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder

"Serial Murder: The unlawful killing of two or more victims by the same offender(s), in separate events."


The "IV. Psychopathy and Serial Murder" bit is also interesting.
 
I'm pretty sure the wrote at least 2 of the 3 "offers" herself. The second one, in December 2008, was written when she went pro per, and the 3rd was definitely written in -ese.

Date correct? Really 2008? By then she was already on #2? Wow...
 
That's a belief, but it's not a fact she would have killed again. She might have killed again, if she had the chance, or she might not have killed again. Serial killers are identified by what they actually did (3 or more murders and some other criteria) not just having weapons and a rental car. Carrying out a murder viciously is not the definition of a serial killer either. Some can 'overkill' one time and not kill again. It's possible she didn't have the level of control she thought she would at the time of the murder (maybe the gun jammed at first) and she went all rageaholic. Or maybe she did intend to make it as vicious as she could. Either way, saying she would have killed again is conjecture, not fact.

I still think she was a serial killer in the making, who just happened to be stopped before she could kill again. No she won't be labeled a serial killer, because fortunately she was stopped, but that is a technicality. She was on the move again with her weapons of choice and there's been a whole lot of conjecture as to whom her next target(s) would have been- Mimi, the Hughes's, the Alexanders, Deanna, etc. etc...
If you really believe the weapons were for a camping trip in the Gold Country with strange men or for her to demonstrate gun responsillibity, I have a bridge for you...
 
No I mean a jury, looking at the evidence, the totality of it, would not (IMO) be able to say there was no premeditation and no pre-planning involved. By its very definition, and based on the evidence that proved premeditation (and also proved pre-planning, though that's not a requirement), it's first degree premeditated murder.

That said, *IF* the family and *IF* the state had agreed to allowed JA to take a 2nd degree plea and thus not go through a trial, that's a whole different thing. Plea deals are a staple of the justice system in all jurisdictions, but in this particular case, it was not something that would have been (or was) agreed to by either the family or the state. Of course judges allow plea deals to go forward...all the time. The judge would not have stopped it had it occurred.



I'm going to play devil's advocate or, maybe just disagree, take your pick, that a jury "would not be able to say there was no premeditation here." A jury decides whether or not there is premeditation, the "evidence" does not.

How a jury sees and processes and interprets a case is virtually always different than how trial watchers (TWs) do. They don't have access to the same info/evidence that TWs do; they're not allowed to discuss anything until deliberations; they only get to hear testimony, not read it, and that only once, unless specifically requested during deliberations and not always then; being in court, in proximity to the defendant et al is an entirely different experience than watching trial, especially since they bear responsibility for arriving at a just result, a responsibility greatly magnified when the defendant is accused of a capital crime.


This case. (Cursory and incomplete:) The car? So what she if wanted a white car or wanted more choices than what some puny car rental lot in Yreka could offer. So what if she dyed her hair-- maybe she did it for Ryan. The gun theft was a little hinky, but not definitive.

Those gas cans. Fact is, to be honest, I watched every minute of the trial, was paying close attention, and am not unknowledgable about how trials work, but I really didn't understand for a long while why JM went on and on about those gas cans. Baffling became just a wee bit irritating even, on par with JM's cross about pedo lie day, when JM talked about the car trading over and over and over, but never put it in context.

My sideways point being, theoretically only, jurors might well have filtered the "data points" of premed quite differently had she not pled self defense.
 
I do not believe she was "going camping" when she obtained the rental car and packed some belongings and weapons. I think she was making her escape out of town because she knew the noose was tightening and LE was on to her, and she didn't want to get arrested. That's what was apparent to me at the time. Perhaps she would have tried to "run for the border." I don't automatically think she was on her way to kill Mimi or the Hughes or Deanna. I think escape to get out of dodge was the motivator right then and there.
 
I do not believe she was "going camping" when she obtained the rental car and packed some belongings and weapons. I think she was making her escape out of town because she knew the noose was tightening and LE was on to her, and she didn't want to get arrested. That's what was apparent to me at the time. Perhaps she would have tried to "run for the border." I don't automatically think she was on her way to kill Mimi or the Hughes or Deanna. I think escape to get out of dodge was the motivator right then and there.


Careful. You're getting awfully close to a'speculating. :D
 
It was first and foremost the evidence amassed that led the state to charge Arias with 1st degree murder, and it was the evidence, combined with an explanation of the meaning of premeditation and JM explaining how and why the evidence proved premeditation, which allowed this jury to see it exactly that way.

The jury is free to disregard anything they want in terms of evidence or witness testimony, though they are not free to disregard the law. But there was *so much* evidence here, the thought of 12 jurors ignoring the evidence was unfathomable. Sure, one can speculate that any jury could be rogue and do something way out of the norm and refuse to believe anything they're told by the state. One would hope a person who would not believe any evidence presented to them during a case might be discovered during voir dire. But the jury was not rogue, they did believe the evidence, and they did vote unanimously for first degree murder.

Lots of things could have happened if only factor A, B, C, D etc occurred and if the jury had thought "so what," but only one thing did happen. She was convicted of premeditated murder.
 
Careful. You're getting awfully close to a'speculating. :D

ummm.... yeah right.

Person in LE's crosshairs suddenly gets rental car, packs some boxes, loads up the boxes in said rental car, adds some weapons, just as LE is closing in on her.

She is:

1. Getting ready to get out of dodge, using the rental car to get out of town.
2. Just on a jaunty trip to Goodwill or to return some library books
3. Not going anywhere. She just wanted a rental car and felt like putting some boxes of stuff in there.
4. Going to drive over 1,000mi back to AZ to kill one or more other people even though none of those people witnessed her murder Travis.

Common sense.
 
ummm.... yeah right.

Person in LE's crosshairs suddenly gets rental car, packs some boxes, loads up the boxes in said rental car, adds some weapons, just as LE is closing in on her.

She is:

1. Getting ready to get out of dodge, using the rental car to get out of town.
2. Just on a jaunty trip to Goodwill or to return some library books
3. Not going anywhere. She just wanted a rental car and felt like putting some boxes of stuff in there.
4. Going to drive over 1,000mi back to AZ to kill one or more other people even though none of those people witnessed her murder Travis.

Common sense.


Right, #'s 2&3 make zero sense. Eliminate those right from the start. That leaves you with #s 1& 4. #1 why take weapons? She didn't know they flew to Yreka to arrest her. She cooperated thinking she could snow them, find out what they had on her. #4 fits her, doesn't matter that they didn't witness the murder. Jodi doesn't need that for motivation to murder. Common sense dictates #4 being the best answer.
 
Date correct? Really 2008? By then she was already on #2? Wow...


The can only see things from a 's perspective. Her "reputation" (lol) meant everything to her, therefore surely protecting TA's reputation must mean more to TA's family than seeing her brought to justice. Heh.
 
Right, #'s 2&3 make zero sense. Eliminate those right from the start. That leaves you with #s 1& 4. #1 why take weapons? She didn't know they flew to Yreka to arrest her. She cooperated thinking she could snow them, find out what they had on her. #4 fits her, doesn't matter that they didn't witness the murder. Jodi doesn't need that for motivation to murder. Common sense dictates #4 being the best answer.
She appeared prepared to threaten, maim or kill if she needed to, hence the weapons. Why do people take weapons with them? Any one of or combo of the following: Protection, Hunting for and/or preparing food, To Threaten Someone Else, To get something (like a robbery for $$$), Harming themselves, Harming someone else, as a tool (knife).

If there's evidence she was on her way to AZ to exact revenge or harm someone else, I'm certainly open to looking at it. I haven't seen any evidence of that so far (other than the fact she possessed a gun and knife and had her mother obtain a rental car).
 
It was first and foremost the evidence amassed that led the state to charge Arias with 1st degree murder, and it was the evidence, combined with an explanation of the meaning of premeditation and JM explaining how and why the evidence proved premeditation, which allowed this jury to see it exactly that way.

The jury is free to disregard anything they want in terms of evidence or witness testimony, though they are not free to disregard the law. But there was *so much* evidence here, the thought of 12 jurors ignoring the evidence was unfathomable. Sure, one can speculate that any jury could be rogue and do something way out of the norm and refuse to believe anything they're told by the state. One would hope a person who would not believe any evidence presented to them during a case might be discovered during voir dire. But the jury was not rogue, they did believe the evidence, and they did vote unanimously for first degree murder.

Lots of things could have happened if only factor A, B, C, D etc occurred and if the jury had thought "so what," but only one thing did happen. She was convicted of premeditated murder.


Unfathomable to you, perhaps, because, maybe, as you've said about yourself, you are about the facts, not so much puzzling over subjective thoughts and intentions and the like.

I'm obviously speaking theoretically, because the trial happened the way it did and is over.

But.....BOTH juries believed, going back into deliberations, that Travis had abused the : definitely verbally (you believe that too, iirc), almost certainly emotionally, and perhaps physically (minority POV on 1st jury). None believed the pedo lie, but the pedo lie was only allowed in because it was integral to her lie about self defense.

Even with both hands tied behind his back by the , then, Nurmi convinced both juries of that much. Given the opportunity, he would have told quite the tale of how confused and conflicted was the , how her BPD made her vulnerable to TA and their "toxic " relationship, blah blah, perhaps, even, how she was so off balance that she had indeed considered killing him--that's why she took the gun or whatever, but just seeing him again made her realize she couldn't possibly, until TA rejected her again, and she just.......snapped.

I really think if Foreman #1 had been persented with that defense, he at least wouldn't have voted 1st degree. He seemed to have concluded early on that the was victimized by TA, and to have viewed evidence through that prism.

In fact, Mr. Foreman #1 was so sympathetic to victim that he volunteered his services to the DT while they were prepping for PP2.
 
ummm.... yeah right.

Person in LE's crosshairs suddenly gets rental car, packs some boxes, loads up the boxes in said rental car, adds some weapons, just as LE is closing in on her.

She is:

1. Getting ready to get out of dodge, using the rental car to get out of town.
2. Just on a jaunty trip to Goodwill or to return some library books
3. Not going anywhere. She just wanted a rental car and felt like putting some boxes of stuff in there.
4. Going to drive over 1,000mi back to AZ to kill one or more other people even though none of those people witnessed her murder Travis.

Common sense.

Ahhh...

Making lists of what you think possible, then deducing what you think is most plausible from your own list of not-facts.

Sounds familiar. Kinda like what we've been doing here on a plethora of TA and trial and related topics :D
 
I never said Travis "abused" Arias, I said he used "abusive language" in that email. The evidence Nurmi & Wilmott presented apparently persuaded some/a few jury members there was possibly something going on in the abuse arena, though I'm not sure they all agreed on what that was, and it didn't cause them to convict her of a lesser charge, as she got the maximum conviction (but of course she didn't get the maximum sentence possible). Outside of the specific language he used within that email (maybe it was combined with some texts, I can't remember), I don't remember anything that was conclusive of abuse. It was certainly not a justifiable reason to murder him and the murder was definitely not in self-defense.
 
Ahhh...

Making lists of what you think possible, then deducing what you think is most plausible from your own list of not-facts.

Sounds familiar. Kinda like what we've been doing here on a plethora of TA and trial and related topics :D
Nope. Making fun of it, not a serious list. What I know for sure: Arias lies, so if Arias claimed she was "going camping" I know that's almost certainly a lie because the truth and what Arias says are never in the same room.
 
Nope. Making fun of it, not a serious list. What I know for sure: Arias lies, so if Arias claimed she was "going camping" I know that's almost certainly a lie because the truth and what Arias says are never in the same room.


LOL, true enough on your Part B.

As to Part A. IMO poking fun is not as fun as joining in the fun of puzzling puzzles because they're puzzling & because there is a righteously fine group of weed-whacking sleuthers to be found here, but to each her own. :)
 
I never said Travis "abused" Arias, I said he used "abusive language" in that email. The evidence Nurmi & Wilmott presented apparently persuaded some/a few jury members there was possibly something going on in the abuse arena, though I'm not sure they all agreed on what that was, and it didn't cause them to convict her of a lesser charge, as she got the maximum conviction (but of course she didn't get the maximum sentence possible). Outside of the specific language he used within that email (maybe it was combined with some texts, I can't remember), I don't remember anything that was conclusive of abuse. It was certainly not a justifiable reason to murder him and the murder was definitely not in self-defense.


Isn't using abusive language being verbally abusive?
--------


In the actual trial (not my theoretical trial as posed) all but one juror were completely persuaded by JM's case for premed, and had no reasonable doubt that she was guilty as charged.

The foreman...not so much. I read all his post-trial interviews. He sympathized with the . He believed TA abused her, both mentally and physically. He seemed quite reluctant to find her guilty, even saying that although TA didn't deserve to be killed, he thought he could understand why the victimized killed him.

There was (somewhat informed) speculation after the verdict that the foreman knew he was the lone hold out during guilt phase and capitulated on that vote as leverage to ensure the jury voted against the DP.

The brevity of sentencing deliberations before hanging suggests (but no, certainly doesn't prove) that scenario isn't far fetched.


(There was only one other occasion, in the text record, anyway, that TA used what some (not me) I suppose could term "harsh" language with the . May 9th, responding after extreme provocation, TA called her a liar, said she was incapable of telling the truth, and was sarcastic with her about her "integrity," that she was planning expensive road trips although she owed him thousands of dollars and hadn't related him a cent for the BMW she blew up.

Nada other than that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
185
Guests online
1,823
Total visitors
2,008

Forum statistics

Threads
600,510
Messages
18,109,743
Members
230,991
Latest member
Clue Keeper
Back
Top