Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #8

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Hey!

salberg said:
snipped by me....
Hope4More & Steve44, glad to see you, as well as geevee. Did Niner ever move to Europe? Wonder about TexMex? Cayley’s Advocate?

Yes I did! Northern Europe to be more specific! Going on my second year here! Getting used to the snow! :snowball:

Didn't realize all these comments were here - ! Love it. I didn't watch the ID special either. Figured if anything "new" I would read about it here!

Hope4More said:
As reminder- the brief may well be ordered sealed, but if not, a COA clerk promised me she would email me the brief, and I'll post it as soon as I receive it.

And thanks Hope4More for the updates on her COA appeal! Glad to hear you have friends in high places!! :happydance:
 
I didn't want to reply quote Hope4More's long thread.

If the case against Nurms goes to arbitration because the profit is $50k or less, would there be a downside to just handing over $50k and calling it a day? Is that the max Nurms can lose?

Then JA's lawyers will take $25k or so, and then there'll be court costs of various descriptions, and costs for witnesses, depositions, transcribers, transportation and hotels, the guards that JA might have to pay for to take her to a civil court (as opposed to a criminal defense).......this is getting to be a slam for JA and no dunk. :jail:

JA will be in a hole in more ways than one. Could lose her shirt, too. "She made her bed and must lie on it." Get her panties in a twist. Etc. The application of metaphors to prison is almost uncanny.

At a cost of $50k, Nurms could be laughing all the way to the bank.
 
Aside from Nurni's earnings from his book deal, didn't he make a mint as Arias' lawyer? All those motions he filed were surely done for his own bank account as much as for his client's case. What did Dr. Fog refer to that as? Secondary gain??? ;) :D

But I also thought about something else... should she prevail in her lawsuit against Nurmi, is that how she intends to pay the legal fees for her next appeal (when her state-funded appeal is denied)?

What a nice little racket she's got going on. Subsidizing her appeal(s) by prevailing in lawsuits against others. Or it could be she's just in it for candy bar money.
 
POSTING THE FOLLOWING (LONG!!!!) FOR EASIER REFERENCE, FOR ANYONE INTERESTED IN ’S CIVIL SUIT AGAINST NURMI.


LINK TO THE LAWSUIT: https://drive.google.com/viewerng/vi...s/2547_001.pdf



I. FROM THE COMPLAINT, ON THE CHARGE NURMI CHOSE TO REMAIN AS COUNSEL, AND THAT HE DID SO FOR FINANCIAL GAIN (paraphrased if not in quotes).


#36. Nurmi told MDLR that writing a book on case would be like “winning the lottery,” and would be worth it even if he lost his law license.

#37. Nurmi had a conflict of interest staying on case; he stayed on for financial gain. He was paid $2.5M, plus the $$ he knew he would earn from his book.

#38. He hated the so much he was eager to break confidence & “tell her secrets” for his own financial gain.

#40. Among N’s many lies is the whopper that he was forced to represent the . “This is false.” N had many opportunities to quit, but didn’t; he remained on for his own financial gain.

#41. “Had he revealed (to the court his hatred (for the ) and intent for financial gain” he would have been released.

#42. Nurmi told (unidentified folks) at the time he was willing to stay on if the Court agreed to pay him more than typical contractual rate (($125 ph; he requested and received $225 ph)).


CONTEXT & REALITY:

(From my dissertation in the appeals thread. ;) )

The decision to charge CMJA with capital murder was made by Maricopa County Attorney Andy Thomas in October 2008. Thomas was elected MCA in 2004.

By 2007, Thomas’s zealousness in seeking the DP, coupled with the fact DP cases in AZ were increasingly taking longer to bring to trial (in part due to lengthier mitigation investigations) had increased the number of pending DP cases in Maricopa County significantly enough for the AZC to consider the trial backlog a system-wide Court crisis.

An Oversight Committee was formed in 2007 to analyze the problem and to suggest reforms. Some components the Committee) and outside sources identified as contributing to the backlog included a shortage of DP- qualified judges and an overly lenient granting of trial continuances.


Outside observers noted that private practice defense attorneys benefitted from the backlog. Desperate to prevent trial postponements from becoming so lengthy as to become an issue for appeals, the Superior Court not infrequently resorted to private defense attorneys to try capital cases, paying the attorneys up to 3x more per hour than their public counterparts.


Reform. On March 5, 2009, Presiding Superior Court Judge Donahoe announced reforms intended to help with the backlog of capital cases.


In other words, the going rate of $125 per hour was because the Court was desperate short of DP qualified attys, and had to hire them out of private practices.

But why was Nurmi paid that extra $100 an hour?



See below (from timelines in my appeals dissertation).

2011 March 8. Minute Entry. 9:10-9:25. All parties are present for a discussion of Nurmi’s withdrawing from PD’s office. Reps are there from the PD office and from Office of PD Services.

March 9. Defense requests oral argument on Nurmi’s motion to withdraw, scheduled for March 21.

March 11. Minute Entry. Duncan unilaterally appoints 2 counsel (Harrison and Hammond) to represent the defendant during the hearing on Nurmi’s motion to withdraw.



++March 21. CCMC. 8:46 -9:13. All parties present, 2 attys for CMJA.

Nurmi objects to the Court appointing counsel for defendant. So noted.

Harrison and Hammond address the Court. Nurmi’s motion to withdraw is denied. Ordered: PD Peterson unacceptable as second chair because he already has a scheduled trial.

March 22. Minute Entry. Nurmi tries again, a renewed motion to withdraw. Nurmi informs Duncan that following the March 21 hearing the Office of Public Defender had removed the DT’s team mitigation specialist, investigator and paralegal, because they didn’t want a non-employee to be directing staff. Duncan orders the team be restored forthwith, saying the OPD doesn’t have the authority to withdraw staff, and has a professional obligation not to impede the DT’s work.

Then, she denies Nurmi’s motion to withdraw.

April 4. CCMC. All parties and CMJA’s 2 attorneys are present. 8:45-9:02. All about Nurmi.

Duncan rules Nurmi has an ethical obligation to continue representation of his client.

Orders Nurmi be paid 225 per hour to “represent the defendant conflict-free.” He won’t be able to build private practice and adequately try a capital case with an “Imminent, firm and final trial setting.”

---------------------------------

(and... that's why he was paid $100 ph "extra"-- to compensate for the long delay in opening the private practice he had already set up).

------------------------------------------
May 8, 2012. Defendant found guilty of premeditated 1st degree murder.
-----------------------------------------------

May, 2012. Both Nurmi & Wilmott try to withdraw. Denied.

May, 2013. (Nurmi writes that he tried to visit CMJA once in early June, but she refused to see him. At some point in June CMJA requests Nurmi be replaced, and is denied).

October 14, 2013. CMJA handwrites a Motion to Change Counsel, asking that Nurmi be fired. (filed same day, executed on October 17).


http://www.cbs5az.com/link/665416/jo...fense-attorney

Summary: Says she hasn’t spoken to Nurmi since May 23, has a trial coming up, “or at least a settlement conference,” and that she isn’t as prepared as she needs to be.

Suggests that she expected her refusal to see Nurmi would force him to withdraw. That her refusal to see him hadn’t led to him trying to communicate with her via someone else on the DT, but that even if he had tried to do so, as she had “advised (JSS)about the ABA guidelines” such communication wouldn’t suffice, and would be a “dangerous form of phone tag.”

Denied.
 
CIVIL COMPLAINT, CHARGE 2: TRASHING TRAVIS WAS ALL NURMI’S FAULT, AND AGAINST HER WILL & BEST INTEREST



#97. Saying that the wanted to trash Travis in court is false, and Nurmi knows that is false. The defense strategy he chose made the public hate the .

#98. Nurmi says in book that the forced him to put on a self-defense case. “This is patently false.”

#99. “Nurmi insisted on self-defense. It was his strategy. It was the defense he wanted to pursue, and that he forced on the rest of the defense team, and the client, because he was lead counsel on the case. “

#102. Nurmi saying that he didn’t want any part in attacking Travis is false. “It was his strategy to attack the victim and to assert self-defense.”


CONTEXT AND REALITY


Early 2010. The has first round of psych evals. She sticks with ninjas lie for her first tests by Samuels; according to testimony by DeMarte, she reports to the first DV expert hired by the DT that she had been physically abused by Travis “too many times (for DeMarte) to count.


April 11, 2010 Nurmi receives 10 forged pedo letters from “Bob White” via email.

June 22, 2010. DT’s Notice of Defenses. (CMJA officially drops ninja lie and files an affirmative defense self-defense).




August 8. 2010. Defendant makes oral request to go pro per. JSS gives her a waiver to review. Nurmi and VW are appointed advisory counsel, VW is to be considered first counsel.

August 15. 2010. CMJA drops Pro Per after the DT’s handwriting expert testifies.

December 22. Victoria Washington withdraws following a discussion in sealed proceeding. JSS orders office of PD Services to appoint an entirely new team: a 2nd chair, new mitigation specialist, paralegal, and investigator.

((( Note: Nurmi suggests in his book, IIRC, that the ’s first counsel (Schaffer) withdrew because the insisted on ninjas, and was furious that Schaffer didn’t think much of that “strategy.”

May, 2009. the DT presented Defendant’s pro per Motion to Change Counsel. Ordered: Schaffer to meet with defendant to discuss the issues raised in motion. The pro per motion is sealed.

August ,2009. Withdrawal of Counsel. Court finds there is sufficient cause to allow counsel to withdraw. )))))



(And that’s leaving aside her Pro Per turns before the PP2, when she was obviously in charge of what strategy to pursue, a choice which was decidedly one that was a doubling down on all her vicious attacks on Travis).
 
Last on the complaint & charges: about Nurmi a choosing self defense and sex sex sex and trashing Travis defense all because he wanted to increase profits of that book he self-published because he couldn't find a publisher who was interested (though JM could and did & produced a best-seller in the same timeframe):

It would be too tedious to review & cut & paste the NUMEROUS motions Nurmi filed before the first trial on through after PP2 began to keep the media out of court, and for change of venue.....motions that if granted would have greatly reduced public interest, and thus interest in a book by him, and thus his profits.


.
 
Monica Lindstrom on the civil suit (reposting the link, posting a very shortened & paraphrased version).



http://ktar.com/story/1805678/legally-speaking-jodi-arias-kirk-nurmi-lawsuit/



---------------------------------------------------
says “Nurmi breached his fiduciary duty to her and was unjustly enriched by the profits of the sales of the book.”

“She is requesting money for the damage done to her and to punish Nurmi for his actions. She is also requesting “all money received by Nurmi for sales of the book, appearance fees … and all other profits of any kind” that Nurmi received.”

Does she have a case? Yes. Will she win? Possibly.

Arias claims she did not give Nurmi permission to write his book or disclose the information therein. Nurmi says waived privilege.
-------------------------------------------
NOTE: THE ABSOLUTELY KEY POINT:

Even if the can prove she didn’t waive privilege, she would still have to prove how she was damaged by the book and Nurmi.

But……Nurmi won: Arias was not sentenced to death.

“Not only did he win, he won twice. Two different juries were deadlocked and could not sentence Arias to death.

So, how was Arias damaged?”

---------------------------------
Damages are unlikely, punishment is possible—if the Court thinks it needs to “make a statement and deter other attorneys from doing the same thing.”

But……Under Arizona law, a convicted killer cannot profit from their crime. In other words, couldn’t write & profit off a book about killing Travis.

But……" if she wins her lawsuit against Nurmi then she could end up — in a roundabout way — profiting from her crime. I am certain the court would see this and that alone could cause Arias to lose and Nurmi to win."
 
I didn't want to reply quote Hope4More's long thread.

If the case against Nurms goes to arbitration because the profit is $50k or less, would there be a downside to just handing over $50k and calling it a day? Is that the max Nurms can lose?

Then JA's lawyers will take $25k or so, and then there'll be court costs of various descriptions, and costs for witnesses, depositions, transcribers, transportation and hotels, the guards that JA might have to pay for to take her to a civil court (as opposed to a criminal defense).......this is getting to be a slam for JA and no dunk. :jail:

JA will be in a hole in more ways than one. Could lose her shirt, too. "She made her bed and must lie on it." Get her panties in a twist. Etc. The application of metaphors to prison is almost uncanny.

At a cost of $50k, Nurms could be laughing all the way to the bank.

Aside from Nurni's earnings from his book deal, didn't he make a mint as Arias' lawyer? All those motions he filed were surely done for his own bank account as much as for his client's case. What did Dr. Fog refer to that as? Secondary gain??? ;) :D

But I also thought about something else... should she prevail in her lawsuit against Nurmi, is that how she intends to pay the legal fees for her next appeal (when her state-funded appeal is denied)?

What a nice little racket she's got going on. Subsidizing her appeal(s) by prevailing in lawsuits against others. Or it could be she's just in it for candy bar money.


Wing-

even if she won and collected every last penny of what Nurmi earned from his book & media appearances (they're typically not for-pay, fwiw), and even if Nurmi's profits were in the tens of thousands of dollars (highly unlikely), that amount will NOT be enough, even when tossed into her whacked Appeals Fund, to pay even the retainer of a federal court appellate attorney.

On the other hand, even a few thousands wrested away from Nurmi could keep her in candy bars, Beeno & zit cream for at least a year or two. :D


Rickshaw--what would be the downside for Nurmi in just forking over whatever money he earned from the book?

For starters, his pride. And the unpalatable reality of allowing the to smear him with impunity. From every indication he's given so far, he won't throw money at her & walk away. IMO he's fixing for a fight. :)
 
JMO
She wont go away will she. LOL

I have trouble understanding why Juan could write his book and yet Nurmi could not write his.

There are unauthorized biographies out there about people that dont give their permission to write about them. And if its a public figure then isnt that fair game. Not saying I agree she is a public figure but she probably thinks she is. LOL

Is it the whole attorney client privilege thing that she is trying to use to claim that he is violating that?

If so then maybe he can win this case by going at it from the public figure angle.
 
JMO
She wont go away will she. LOL

I have trouble understanding why Juan could write his book and yet Nurmi could not write his.

There are unauthorized biographies out there about people that dont give their permission to write about them. And if its a public figure then isnt that fair game. Not saying I agree she is a public figure but she probably thinks she is. LOL

Is it the whole attorney client privilege thing that she is trying to use to claim that he is violating that?

If so then maybe he can win this case by going at it from the public figure angle.


Yes, the difference between the 2 books is that one was written by a defense attorney who was bound by attorney-client privilege. Nurmi was disbarred for violating privilege, not for writing his book.
 
Hope4More,

In your post # 824, with the claims # 36-42...now does JA have to prove those?

thx...
 
Yes, the difference between the 2 books is that one was written by a defense attorney who was bound by attorney-client privilege. Nurmi was disbarred for violating privilege, not for writing his book.

Thanks Hope and thanks so much for all the information you included on prior pages. That helps a lot to understand.

If I ever need a lawyer I will look you up. LOL :)
 
Hope4More,

In your post # 824, with the claims # 36-42...now does JA have to prove those?

thx...


I honestly don't know which, if any, of the many specific accusations have to be proven, because I don't have the legal background to understand with any certainty which (if any) of the specific individual charges expose Nurmi to CIVIL liability.

What I do know:

The 's appellate attorneys went directly to the COA to try to prevent JM from publishing his book, on the grounds what was revealed in the book could affect her appeals, or a retrial if her convinction was overturned. The COA panel not only denied their motions, but did so with rather transparent contempt for the legal weakness of their motions.

Bar complaints were filed against both JM & Nurmi for publishing books about the case during her appeals process. The complaint against JM was dismissed. The complaint against Nurmi wasn't; not because of the timing of publication, but because what he wrote clearly violated attorney-client privilege. Nurmi said he knew he had violated privilege, but that he had no regrets.

Voila disbarment, not just because of the violation, but because his indifference about committing that ill deed really, really, pissed off not just the , but Karen the crusader Clark, who went back after Nurmi. Nurmi chose disbarment rather than another fight, but he also walked away without promising to be good, no matter the Clark's shrieks & her insistence that he repent as he was kicked out the door of his chosen profession.

That all goes back to....how was the damaged by anything Nurmi did or did not do? In a manner relevant to a CIVIL court?

There is no way it can be proven that Nurmi wanted to stay on the case. He did not.

There is no way to prove that Nurmi intended from the first to write a book. MLDR's statement sounds problematic, but one relevant question is- when did Nurmi allegedly say this to her? Even if he did say it, and early on, I'd bet he said it as black humor & MDLR, after the fact, is ready & willing to pile on against Nurmi.

Reality is- IF Nurmi said during trial that he wanted to write a book & was willing to lose his license to do so, both MDLR & Wilmott were legally bound to report to JSS what he had said, as it could represent a genuine conflict of interest, or worse. But, they did not. Hmm.

[Which makes this claim by Clark all the more ridiculous: that the Court would have released Nurmi had JSS known Nurmi chose to remain because 1- he anticipated profits (Court would have known of this alleged evilness if MDLR & Wilmott had done their legal & ethical duty & reported Nurmi); and 2- if JSS had been aware of Nurmi's "hatred" towards the during trial].

On that last point...LOL. And, REALLY??! As if JSS over the years couldn't pick up on Nurmi's impatience and more for the ? As if she didn't feel the same way herself, to whatever degree? As if she didn't understand the 28 page handwritten whine by the about how much the meanie Nurmi didn't like her? Just. LOL.

IMO, it's possible that the civil suit includes the silly baseless accusations about Nurmi staying on for $$ because a civil suit needs to provide grounds for CIVIL remedy, which are all $$$ based.
 
Ok, got it !
What JA is doing does sound at first glance like it all may have some merit, until you start dissecting every little thing and how not all the players played fair.
ie: Wilmot and mldr not ratting on Nurmi and his ' I don't care ' attitude. He was already sick and tired of JA and her bs.



But, now look where it has gotten him.
 
's appeal to the COA was filed in May 2015.

A year later, in May, 2016, after the trial record was certified as complete and opening briefs were scheduled due within several months, her attorneys stopped the briefs clock by filing motions to supplement the record.

Many supplement requests & a full redo of the trial transcripts later, in April, 2017 the Court again certified the trial record complete.

But...nope. Though that date still stands as official on the COA docket, more skirmishes and motions and transcript clean ups & redos followed, from April-August 2017, when the COA first issued the new deadline of February 28th, 2018 for the 's opening brief.

Miraculously, the 's criminal appellate attorneys have not filed a motion of any kind since AUGUST 2017!

Yes, her civil attorney, Karen Clark splatted onto the docket with her request in October, 2017 that she be granted access to sealed files, perhaps for the case against Nurmi, perhaps because she & the appellate attorneys intend to incorporate portions of the civil case into the criminal appeal.

But.....no motions by Clark have followed from the access she was granted in October.


I think this is it, that just shy of 3 years from the initial appeal being filed we are only about 5 weeks away from hearing that the opening brief has been filed. WOOT! :)

As reminder- the brief may well be ordered sealed, but if not, a COA clerk promised me she would email me the brief, and I'll post it as soon as I receive it.

BBM

Have I told you lately that I love you? :D

Can't wait to read the brief! I'm days and pages back, I hope nothing has happened between your post above and today to alter the deadline.
 
Re if JA wins $$ from Nurmi. But she wouldn't get any $$ would she - she owes the Alexanders' a ton of money - wouldn't it all go to him - or a percentage of it??

And :tyou: Hope4More in explaining all this COD and lawsuit!! :clap:

And wondering :thinking: what happened to TexMex??
 
I just went and looked at his profile - he hasn't posted since July 21, 2017.... :dunno:
 
Your quote, Rickshaw, is from a page following the pics Hope posted of her 2016 trip to Mesa (and beyond).

I hadn't thought of this before reading your comment, but Hodi says she stopped in Pasadena to fill her rental. Her next known stop for fuel was in Mesquite, right? According to Mapquest, the mileage between the two cities is 340 miles. It's very likely she would have been able to drive there from Pasadena on a full tank of gas, so that sounds like another calculated part of her plan. And of course she would have gotten a receipt for documentation to prove she was "nowhere near Mesa". (ha ha) And wasn't that the leg of her trip where she got lost and then fell asleep in her car (which would explain the additional time to get there)? How conveeeeeeenient. Oh, she so sneaky!

Was there a receipt from the Mesquite gas station entered into evidence? I'd like to know how many gallons of fuel she paid for, for that 340 miles. ;)

Btw, I only saw two pics Hope posted (sidestreet and open garage door). Are there, or were there, more?

BBM

No receipt for the Mesquite gas purchase was found as far as I recall, it appeared on her bank statement (as a debit or CC purchase), my memory on the bazillion details of this case has weakened but I had included it in the route map I'd made and roughly calculated the amount of gas based on the debit amount (which is all flood-lost, unfortunately). There's a thread here 'Bank Statement and Receipts' (or similar title) that has copies of receipts and such, might be worth a look for if so inclined.
 
You know you're back down a rabbit hole when.....

Skimming through Nurmi's book definitely qualifies. I just did. And it refreshed my memory on several points central to what is being alleged in the civil case.

1. Nurmi forced her into going with an affirmative defense (self defense), rather than allowing her to present her preferred defense of "the Ninjas did it & I'm going to be home by Christmas."

According to Nurmi (synthesising what he wrote), he never told her he wouldn't go with the Ninjas, but he did everything he could to convince her that a jury would never believe it. He was positive she'd end up on death row if she had her way.

He believes the "mock jury" thingee he did with college students in early 2010 (none believed the story) convinced her to try again.

Next is what the civil suit gets utterly wrong. The choice of defense wasn't between Ninjas and self-defense. I believe Nurmi that his defense of choice was to argue for manslaughter: no premed, no self defense, but a "snapping," heat of passion case.

It was the who inserted the forged pedo letters into the case, and who insisted on depicting Travis as a pedophile even after the letters weren't admitted.

She wanted to take the stand & trash Travis (had she not opted for an affirmative defense, she wouldn't have had to testify).

Which is where what the civil complaint terms Nurmi's "obessesion" with sex during the trial comes in.

Nurmi says in plain terms that he believed he had to counter the damage the 's pedo accusations would do to herself & her odds of escaping the DP.

So, sex, sex, sex, to make the case that Travis was using her, AND that he wasn't afraid of her, as evidenced by his never saying no to sex with her, even on the day of the murder, and so....she wasn't an obsessed stalker, and so, something made her snap that day, which most likely was being rejected again by Travis after he was done using her for sex.

A civil case isn't about second-guessing his trial strategy, but even if it was, IMO Nurmi would win that argument.
 
Hi everyone! :loveyou:
I'm a lurker here, and I wanted to thank all of you for your amazing research and insights.

I only became obsessed with this case a couple of years ago, so I've had a lot of catching up to do. I've read all the books, and watched the trial and all the commentry to be found on youtube. (I seem to watch parts of the trial over, and over again. And I've read a ton on here.

This is super off topic, so let me know if I should delete it - Of course I read the book by the Hughes, and watched their HLN appearances. I became rather fond of them I suppose. I just went to Chris Hughes' facebook, and it look like he and Sky have divorced. It made me a little sad, oddly, since I don't know these people.

Anyway, thanks to all, and keep writing!!!
 
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