Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #8

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There's nothing to settle. She can either drop the suit, or lose. The disbarment can't be used in her appeal because it had nothing to do with the trial. It's based on breaching attorney/client privilege after the trial was over so it's irrelevant to any appeal, which only deals with the trial itself.


There may (or may not) be a middle ground of sorts between "winning" and "losing" this civil case against Nurmi.

The Court was absolutely clear that the cannot be awarded monetary damages no matter what, even if Nurmi violated every ethical rule, or even law, on the book.

The Court did not dismiss the charges related to Nurmi's breach of fidicuary duty, though, which he is clearly 100% guilty of committing. Whether the case goes to arbitration or is heard in court, Nurmi will be found guilty of breaching his fidicuary duties to the .

Nurmi will not have to fork over any money directly to her, even if the court rules he's guilty as all get out of breaching his fidicuary duty to her (though it's possible he will be forced to pay her court costs).

How can she "win," then? Or why would she keep pursuing the case?

One short answer- because by pursuing the case, she is forcing Nurmi to spend $$'s to defend himself, and she gets to keep reminding him he isn't free from her yet.

Why else would she keep on? Because she can force Nurmi to submit to being deposed, under oath, about whether or not he was already planning to write a book BEFORE trial began, and about what no doubt will be a litany of complaints of abuse of her by Nurmi.

Nothing he says will affect her direct appeal to the COA, which I imagine she knows she is going to lose. It isn't entirely inconceivable, though, that answers he supplies may help her secure a PCR hearing (though not a win there, either, based on what we know now, anyway).
 
There may (or may not) be a middle ground of sorts between "winning" and "losing" this civil case against Nurmi.

The Court was absolutely clear that the cannot be awarded monetary damages no matter what, even if Nurmi violated every ethical rule, or even law, on the book.

The Court did not dismiss the charges related to Nurmi's breach of fidicuary duty, though, which he is clearly 100% guilty of committing. Whether the case goes to arbitration or is heard in court, Nurmi will be found guilty of breaching his fidicuary duties to the .

Nurmi will not have to fork over any money directly to her, even if the court rules he's guilty as all get out of breaching his fidicuary duty to her (though it's possible he will be forced to pay her court costs).

How can she "win," then? Or why would she keep pursuing the case?

One short answer- because by pursuing the case, she is forcing Nurmi to spend $$'s to defend himself, and she gets to keep reminding him he isn't free from her yet.

Why else would she keep on? Because she can force Nurmi to submit to being deposed, under oath, about whether or not he was already planning to write a book BEFORE trial began, and about what no doubt will be a litany of complaints of abuse of her by Nurmi.

Nothing he says will affect her direct appeal to the COA, which I imagine she knows she is going to lose. It isn't entirely inconceivable, though, that answers he supplies may help her secure a PCR hearing (though not a win there, either, based on what we know now, anyway).

He could at least offer her an autographed copy, plus a generous prison library donation of copies.
 
My conclusion regarding 10 forged letters.

Letters were written by JA before her arrest. All of the crazy things she was doing to TA during March-April- May now finally make sense. Everything is falling into place.

Beginning Jan-Feb 2008, JA's hatred toward TA started to grow with acceleration. She was determined to ruin him. She was determined to smear and destroy TA's reputation. She was going to expose him as a sinner, abuser, and a pedophile. (Probably got the idea while babysitting a boy).

- Jan or Feb - She started to text about school girl outfit, lollipops, spiderman underwear, braids, etc with TA.
-Mid March- She practiced TA's handwriting by stealing his journal, then I believe started to write fake abuse letters and pedo letter.
-Late March - Destroyed TA's BMW to make him angry.
-April 18 - JA requested TA to send her a sweet handwritten note via snail mail, and received it a few days later. This was to establish TA sending letters via regular mail is normal event between them.
-April 20 - Night club text (you are the prettiest girl on the planet) sent to herself. To establish TA was still interested in her not to mention sinning, a Mormon man going to a night club.
-April 22 - JA texted to TA about Little Red Riding Hood adventure. To her, this showed his supposed pedophilic nature.
-May 2 - Fantasy Godess text sent to herself.
-May 10 - JA sent accidental Steve Carroll text to make TA very angry.
-May 10 - Makes sex tape.
-May 26 - JA 'trying to send *advertiser censored* down the pipeline' (G chat)

etc,etc,etc. There are so much more crazy stuff she was doing to back up her plan.

I believe she didn't forge the letters in jail but forged them after stealing TA's journal in March though didn't have opportunities or chose not to use them while TA was alive. She decided to kill him instead.
I believe she gave PDF copies to Matt before her arrest.
 
I've had my hands full for awhile, but am beginning to catch up with this & that, including this- updates on appeals, etc. relating to the .

Of most interest, if I'm correctly interpreting the Court Minutes for the civil case against Nurmi....

Looks like Nurmi & Karen Clark/Adams ('s attorneys) are wrangling over a video taped deposition. The last time I saw reference to the deposition, only a docket was available; no Court Minutes for the case were to be had to interpret the content/significance of docket entries.

Now there are 4 Minutes, and one is both somewhat explanatory and....curious. Both sides & N's attorney appeared before a Superior Court judge on April 11, in part for a hearing on whether or not the videotaped deposition could proceed.

Guess who else showed up for the hearing? The 's appellate attorneys, both of them. They were there to argue that they be allowed to intervene in the civil case, specifically, to forestall (completely? in part? on the particulars?) that videotaped deposition.

I can imagine only one reason why her appellate attorneys would have any grounds whatsoever to insert themselves: the deposition must be of the , and Nurmi must have demanded that she be deposed.

Big, hearty LOL on that. He's absolutely allowed to confront his accuser, but oops...her appellate attorneys are freaking ---about the inevitable lies the will spout, perhaps? The lies can't be relevant (as far as I know) to her COA appeal, but they sure would cause problems for her inevitable PCR.
 
Part 2 on appeals updates, etc.

Her COA appeal: In 3 days (May 7) it will have been 3 years since the 's original, post-sentencing Notice of Appeal. (Three YEARS. Geez).

Opening briefs are (lol) due May 16, after 2 extensions of the COA's " This Is Really It" due-date ruling.

's attorneys, sometime between extension one & extension two, added a CD (contents unknown) to the record, as well as an explanatory email. Whatever the contents, they were not drawn from court transcripts or the court record. Who knows.

Her attorneys also requested and were granted the right to DOUBLE the brief's word count maximum (14,000 words). Another LOL. Why is it not one of her attorneys knows how to present a case succinctly?
 
thanks for your updates, Hope4More. I check back here often for them!:loveyou:
 
Part 2 on appeals updates, etc.

Her COA appeal: In 3 days (May 7) it will have been 3 years since the 's original, post-sentencing Notice of Appeal. (Three YEARS. Geez).

Opening briefs are (lol) due May 16, after 2 extensions of the COA's " This Is Really It" due-date ruling.

's attorneys, sometime between extension one & extension two, added a CD (contents unknown) to the record, as well as an explanatory email. Whatever the contents, they were not drawn from court transcripts or the court record. Who knows.

Her attorneys also requested and were granted the right to DOUBLE the brief's word count maximum (14,000 words). Another LOL. Why is it not one of her attorneys knows how to present a case succinctly?

"It's complicated."
 
I guess I've missed some happenings. :o

So Nurm wants to depose her Highness and her appellate attnys are flipping out? Excellent, sometimes I like Nurmi's style (well, this time anyway).

So the only way she can "win" against Nurm is to bleed him to death with legal fees and wasted time, that sounds extremely fitting for her. Glad to see Nurm seems to want to fight this to the end, with gusto.

3 years?! And that doesn't even include the trials. :facepalm: I will choose to look at this as time well spent at Hope's knee learning the ins and out of the judiciary system, you have taught us much during the course of these years my friend and I am heartily and deeply grateful. :loveyou:

:seeya: Pocket! I'll give that some thought, it never occurred that she began that part of her terrorizing of Travis before she ended his life.
 
I guess I've missed some happenings. :o

So Nurm wants to depose her Highness and her appellate attnys are flipping out? Excellent, sometimes I like Nurmi's style (well, this time anyway).

So the only way she can "win" against Nurm is to bleed him to death with legal fees and wasted time, that sounds extremely fitting for her. Glad to see Nurm seems to want to fight this to the end, with gusto.

3 years?! And that doesn't even include the trials. :facepalm: I will choose to look at this as time well spent at Hope's knee learning the ins and out of the judiciary system, you have taught us much during the course of these years my friend and I am heartily and deeply grateful. :loveyou:

:seeya: Pocket! I'll give that some thought, it never occurred that she began that part of her terrorizing of Travis before she ended his life.

When I presume that JA started to forge those letters beginning April or so, then take another look at April-May timelines, everything starts to make sense. She was gathering evidence to destroy TA the whole time and was looking for the right moment to pull the trigger.

But then this happened:
-May 21, 11:48pm Maria M to Travis: Travis I'm really sorry! The last thing I ever wanted to do is hurt you! I do truly think you are wonderful! And the gift you have is amazing! You made me cry within min! I just couldn't meet you and it freaked me out when u said were in UT! I'm sorry really! Do you still wanna be friends?
11:52 pm Travis: I know ur in England. LDS Linkup contacted me and I think all your friends. I never went to UT. I knew you weren't there and I was just trying to call your bluff.

The above communication is done via text because by May 21, JA got kicked out of LDS Linkup and could no longer communicate via LDS Linkup. Some time between May 14 - May 21, TA contacted LDS Linkup on his suspicion of Maria M being phony and fraudulent and they caught her. She 'really screw the pooch on this one'. JA was in a whole lot of trouble. TA won big time for the second time, this after May 13-14 NA 55 text thoroughly mocking her. JA had to lose the Helio right quick on May 18 to mitigate the situation.

I think from this moment on, JA became even more calculating and vengeful. By May 26, she leaned more to murdering TA rather than destroying his reputation.

Youtube acct was opened on May 29 to post sex tape if her murder plan went astray.
Flickr acct was opened on June 3 to post forged letters. Or maybe they were actually posted in private section the same day.

I believe more than ever that sex did not happen on June 4th. TA was truly done with her by this time. I think she put the sex photos on TA's Sony just in case her murder plan went astray, then deleted them after thinking it over it may not be a good idea. So manipulative, especially regarding anything to do with photos. Demented woman she is.

July 15 'Still beat you! brat' is very telling.

No, no forged letters had to be smuggled out of jail. 100% sure on this.
 
Not a thing she'd do would surprise me, but since I never joined Beth's site I wasn't able to read all of the texts, journals and such to have a concrete idea on the timeline, but I'm quite intrigued with your theory, Pocket. I confess that everything that happened in mid-late May is a bit confusing to me, probably because I wasn't able to follow the day by day texts and have a firm picture in my head of all the players (MariaM, ND55, Regan, etc.), you and Hope have a much better grasp than I.

I do wholly agree that by May 26 she was intent on destroying Travis by any means possible, I just hadn't envisioned her working up the 'pedo project' before she was arrested, but it doesn't surprise. The YouTube and Flickr accounts have always confused me as to the 'why' but your thinking on that makes sense.

My thoughts on them having sex on the 4th is the same as yours (no way, he was so done), the nude pics (from the braids/tootsie pop/pop rocks play night) I figured either she put that memory card in his camera so Mimi would see them in Cancun, or she used an old card that those previously deleted pics had been on, intending to photograph him before or during the murder. The only thing we're sure of is those nudes were deleted before the shower pics were put on that card, but I'm not opposed to the idea she thought to plant them in case killing him didn't work.

Making the pedo letters before she was jailed is certainly more logical than getting them smuggled out.

At heart she is a killer, and still trying to decimate anyone who stood against her. I hope with all of my heart that she is defeated at every turn.
 
Pocket Accent, I'm liking your theories!
 
I have always thought a) Travis and JA did not have sex the day of the murder and b) she came in on him while he was self-jollying and that's how she came up with the self-pleasuring-to-a-child's-picture story. Imagine, too, how outraged she must have been to see that TA would rather have sex with himself than with her. What better way to eradicate him than to turn all those details into a trial-length revenge.
 
Pocket Accent, I'm liking your theories!

I'm so glad you like! Starts to make sense right? I mean why text or message yourself supposedly coming from TA? What's the purpose?

Such as:
-4/20 TA- I am at a night club right now and it helped me to come to the conclusion that you are one of the prettiest girls on the planet.
-4/21 TA - Send me a naughty picture.
-4/29 TA's message on JA's Myspace- Those branches make you look like a hot Medusa. I'd like to take a picture of you in the forest.
-5/1 TA's message on JA's Myspace-I wonder how much you raise the hotness level of Yreka all by yourself, factoring in its per capita hot stats before you came, I am sure it raised exponentially.
-5/2 *advertiser censored* fantasy text on Helio.

These were to show TA was still very into her (he wasn't really. He himself communicated with her very infrequently after she left Mesa).
I think she wanted TA to come visit her in Yreka throughout the month of May so she can claim he physically abused her during the visit.
All to be on the same wavelength with the forged letters.
 
Not a thing she'd do would surprise me, but since I never joined Beth's site I wasn't able to read all of the texts, journals and such to have a concrete idea on the timeline, but I'm quite intrigued with your theory, Pocket. I confess that everything that happened in mid-late May is a bit confusing to me, probably because I wasn't able to follow the day by day texts and have a firm picture in my head of all the players (MariaM, ND55, Regan, etc.), you and Hope have a much better grasp than I.

I do wholly agree that by May 26 she was intent on destroying Travis by any means possible, I just hadn't envisioned her working up the 'pedo project' before she was arrested, but it doesn't surprise. The YouTube and Flickr accounts have always confused me as to the 'why' but your thinking on that makes sense.

My thoughts on them having sex on the 4th is the same as yours (no way, he was so done), the nude pics (from the braids/tootsie pop/pop rocks play night) I figured either she put that memory card in his camera so Mimi would see them in Cancun, or she used an old card that those previously deleted pics had been on, intending to photograph him before or during the murder. The only thing we're sure of is those nudes were deleted before the shower pics were put on that card, but I'm not opposed to the idea she thought to plant them in case killing him didn't work.

Making the pedo letters before she was jailed is certainly more logical than getting them smuggled out.

At heart she is a killer, and still trying to decimate anyone who stood against her. I hope with all of my heart that she is defeated at every turn.

You know it is interesting two of the sex photos were more extensively 'damaged' than other 4, in that not even timestamps could be recovered. Those two photos were definitely identifiable to JA (JA frontal and female part one). The other 4 didn't show clearly who the woman was.

(I think she mistakenly put two of 'the decidedly- JA photos' first in Sony, then deleted them, then put next 4 that we know of, therefore the first two lost all meta data).

She may have initially planned to leave the naked photos and shower photos in the camera for LE to find. Both missions accomplished then. TA's reputation would be unequivocally destroyed. TA murdered in his shower after having sex with a mysterious woman.

But she did delete all remaining sex photos prior to shower photos. Probably found something just wasn't right with the planted nudes. Something only she would know of. Not worth the risk whatever it was, so deleted the remaining nudes.
 
I have always thought a) Travis and JA did not have sex the day of the murder and b) she came in on him while he was self-jollying and that's how she came up with the self-pleasuring-to-a-child's-picture story. Imagine, too, how outraged she must have been to see that TA would rather have sex with himself than with her. What better way to eradicate him than to turn all those details into a trial-length revenge.

I agree, if you mean the self-jollying happened in late March when I think the sex photos were taken. I believe TA never knew JA was in his house until the middle of shower on June 4th.
 
Pocket returns. ;)

Leaving aside altogether & absolutely the question/interpretation/ whatever about yes or no sex that day, two sets of thoughts about what you wrote- one on the letters themselves, and the second, about the what & when of her plotting from Yreka. None of the below are new insights, BTW, just repackaging them for you to consider.

1. THE LETTERS

Taking in account what JM & Nurmi & Sky have written about them, and tossing in Debbie Moran's excellent analysis of them, as well as our own extended discussions here about the letters themselves, and the timing of her producing them, etc.:

1. Only copies of copies were ever produced. JM says one of the reasons he thought they were forged was that not one of the letters was creased.

Relevance?

If the wrote them before she was arrested, where were they kept? Not anywhere in Yreka. If she sent them to an accomplice (MM is the only one who fits the bill, IMO), wouldn't they have been creased? And that assumes a lot, that she would have thought to mail them to a 3rd party at all. Why? IMO she didn't believe for a minute she would ever be caught.

2. We know about only 2-3 of the 10 letters, and have seen (iirc) the full text of just one, the "pedo" letter. I think 2 of the 10 were about the pedo lie; the others were, according to Sky, about the lie of physical abuse.

One reason I don't think she wrote these specific 10 letters before she was arrested is that they (IMO) are transparently tailored -even ridiculously so, to line up with her lie #3 of self defense.

The problem for her- which is why the pedo letter was such a disaster (wrong date, didn't line up with text & call records) was that she kept changing her lies about the what & when & how much of physical abuse.

I believe -rather firmly, actually, that JM was correct- that the pedo lie was created after Nurmi convinced her the ninjas story wouldn't work, when she reached for a defense she believed would allow her to play victim, and when she had to explain why it was TA had only ever been violent or abusive with HER.

--

Adding- the fact that the letters weren't creased also indicates, IMO, that Debbie Maran was spot on in her analysis that the letters were cut & pasted. From his journals, for sure, but also, I believe, from customized index card forgeries she did in jail.

How did the index cards get smuggled out? I don't think that would have been difficult at all. Around the time she came up with lie #3, Nurmi wrote a Motion- which was granted- that the State not be given access to the 's visitor list. How convenient? A wee index card or two, slipped into whatever & taken away by a visitor. Not a big thing. This is a , after all, who came up with the plan to smuggle out messages in code via magazines.
 
As for part 2...the whens of plotting & connections.

I believe that the had murderous thoughts about TA and Lisa and even Mimi, before she snooped enough to know Mimi wasn't a threat. I agree with JM that thoughts became concrete premeditation around the time she called Brewer about the gas cans (I believe it likely was a bit earlier, actually, by mid-May).

I sure do agree that the was plotting before then, and manufacturing a trail, or just flat out extortion "evidence."

Towards what precise end, I'm not sure even the was certain about on any given day, as I think she was unpleasantly astonished -and livid- that her control over TA lessened significantly with each passing day & each of her outrageous acts.

I'm pretty sure I've said this explicitly before, but if not...

Unfortunately, I think it very possible that Travis acted exactly as he threatened to do in early May: to take the gloves off in how he responded to her escalating insanity.

In April 2007, as she was driving in defeat & humiliation back to Yreka, he threatened to expose her as a psycho. IMO she clearly responded to that threat by manufacturing an online record (and sex tape) that she no doubt believed was insurance against his acting on that threat.

The intensity of threat & counter threat increased beginning in early May. I really believe that TA was desperate to make the simply STOP, to leave him in peace, to not mess with his emotions & life any more. He had tried every which way, and every other thing, but she just would not.

Hence, the NA55 epic call. Didn't work. More crazy, hence his acting still further on his threat to expose her by ..actually exposing her, especially in those mid-May texts with his friend he was sure the was online reading as he wrote them.

To the , I think, it tipped the scales all the way to murder, but to cold calculated murder, to the only way she knew she could "win" against him. ("I still beat you...")
 
Last couple of (minor) thoughts:

1. I don't believe TA actually spoke with anyone connected to the LDS board, and even if he had, I don't believe they would have investigated. It's a big board, and privacy laws apply in any case.

From the texts, I think TA did ask Regan to investigate, and I think Regan was involved with the NA55 call- as in, perhaps monitoring the 's activity on the LDS board during & after the call.

The would have had no way of being certain whether or not TA had exposed her to LDS board-related folk, but would have been furious & felt threatened either way.

2." Screwed the pooch" couldn't have referred to the LDS thing anyway, because her peddling that line (and lie, IMO) was wrapped up in her DEMAND that he call her about something that he didn't know about, that concerned him too, that was just oh so serious, for real.


3. The sure was adamant that TA send her a written note. Nagged him repeatedly that he do so. JM's book has a photo of the note he sent. Interesting that she kept it, the original, even though it was completely bland, impersonal, and self-help-y, and not a tad romantic or even fond.

I think you are probably right (nice insight) that she was so persistent about it because she wanted to establish that TA actually DID write, not just email or text.

Why? Another possibility is that if she was thinking of forging letters, what she may have had in mind was forging a letter from Travis to herself that was all about sex & desire for her (consistent with all the other "evidence" she was manufacturing around that time), OR, sending a forged letter from TA to Lisa.
 
They filed for an extension after the deadline?! How arrogant are these folks? I'm so sorry you worked the phones so hard getting info and the promise of the filing only to be disappointed, Hope. :( I so enjoy reading your posts, they're so riveting and informative. Please never stop. :)

The worst part is that the court is willing to bend over for this creature when we all know that you or I would, upon attempt to file late, be told by the court to not let the door hit us where the sun don't shine on our way out.
 
Pocket returns. ;)

Leaving aside altogether & absolutely the question/interpretation/ whatever about yes or no sex that day, two sets of thoughts about what you wrote- one on the letters themselves, and the second, about the what & when of her plotting from Yreka. None of the below are new insights, BTW, just repackaging them for you to consider.

1. THE LETTERS

Taking in account what JM & Nurmi & Sky have written about them, and tossing in Debbie Moran's excellent analysis of them, as well as our own extended discussions here about the letters themselves, and the timing of her producing them, etc.:

1. Only copies of copies were ever produced. JM says one of the reasons he thought they were forged was that not one of the letters was creased.

Relevance?

If the wrote them before she was arrested, where were they kept? Not anywhere in Yreka. If she sent them to an accomplice (MM is the only one who fits the bill, IMO), wouldn't they have been creased? And that assumes a lot, that she would have thought to mail them to a 3rd party at all. Why? IMO she didn't believe for a minute she would ever be caught.

2. We know about only 2-3 of the 10 letters, and have seen (iirc) the full text of just one, the "pedo" letter. I think 2 of the 10 were about the pedo lie; the others were, according to Sky, about the lie of physical abuse.

One reason I don't think she wrote these specific 10 letters before she was arrested is that they (IMO) are transparently tailored -even ridiculously so, to line up with her lie #3 of self defense.

The problem for her- which is why the pedo letter was such a disaster (wrong date, didn't line up with text & call records) was that she kept changing her lies about the what & when & how much of physical abuse.

I believe -rather firmly, actually, that JM was correct- that the pedo lie was created after Nurmi convinced her the ninjas story wouldn't work, when she reached for a defense she believed would allow her to play victim, and when she had to explain why it was TA had only ever been violent or abusive with HER.

--

Adding- the fact that the letters weren't creased also indicates, IMO, that Debbie Maran was spot on in her analysis that the letters were cut & pasted. From his journals, for sure, but also, I believe, from customized index card forgeries she did in jail.

How did the index cards get smuggled out? I don't think that would have been difficult at all. Around the time she came up with lie #3, Nurmi wrote a Motion- which was granted- that the State not be given access to the 's visitor list. How convenient? A wee index card or two, slipped into whatever & taken away by a visitor. Not a big thing. This is a , after all, who came up with the plan to smuggle out messages in code via magazines.
One super boring day, randomly choosing to watch Dr Samuels' cross, after not thinking about this case for a very long time, suckered me in again. I briefly thought Dr Samuels could have been one of the person who could have helped smuggle out the non-creased letters. He wouldn't stoop that low was my conclusion though.

Anyways...
It is my belief JA started and continued to produce abuse and pedo letters from March - May. She stole TA's journal for this very purpose. Since she is an expert in copying whether it be artworks, photos, or someone's handwriting, I think she handwrote them easily, then scanned and saved the letters in her computer, therefore no crease. It is possible she copy/pasted also but that's much more labor intensive in my opinion.

I believe she either emailed the letters (PDF document) to MM while living at grandma's or on June 3rd while opening the Flickr account in his room. The letters may very well have been posted in non-public section of Flickr that night/morning. Also possible she emailed them to him after killing TA but before her arrest. In any case, MM knew where to find them in 2010.

It is ironic that both detectives, during interrogation, asked her if she killed TA because he was abusive to her. Of course and foremost she had to say no way. That she didn't kill. She had no reason to kill. She wasn't there, ok, ninjas killed.

Up until recent, my belief was that JA wanted back in TA's life and that all of those stalking, manipulating, crazy weird behaviors were done to win him back somehow. That was never the case. After leaving Mesa, her only objective was to completely destroy him. She absolutely hated TA. And Deanna, and Hughes.

About the 3x5 cards found in her cell- I suspect she was actually creating a 3x5 cards that looked as if TA wrote them while alive. Perhaps one of the line would be-'write Jodi a apology letter' 'read pedo pamphlet jodi got me'
 
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