Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #8

[RickshawFan]

Off topic for a minute...does anyone else have issues with getting all of their alerts? I've noticed on mine that I'll be alerted that one or two people have posted but,when I look through the thread,waaay more than that have posted.

Check your settings. I'm clearly not getting enough trophies even though I'm getting as many as H4M, which makes it all exponentially ludicrous.

 

[pocketaccent]

((news of sorts in appeals thread. . . . ))

Wow, that is disgusting news.

 

[RickshawFan]

Check your settings. I'm clearly not getting enough trophies even though I'm getting as many as H4M, which makes it all exponentially ludicrous.

Almost as nutty.... I have about 5 times as many posts as pocketaccent. That's not even close to possible! It certainly should be the other way around, with about a million trophies for pocket accent to go along with it.

Oops.. I see I hijacked the thread. Apologies. Back to business.

 

[pocketaccent]

Check your settings. I'm clearly not getting enough trophies even though I'm getting as many as H4M, which makes it all exponentially ludicrous.

Too bad our new system didn't pick up all of the previous 'likes/thanks'. Let's see, Hope used to get at least 10 likes (minimum) per post, so she should have at least 110,582 likes, if they were carried over.

 

[geevee]

((news of sorts in appeals thread. . . . ))

No! No, no no, oh freakin' crap, no.

 

[pocketaccent]

Too bad our new system didn't pick up all of the previous 'likes/thanks'. Let's see, Hope used to get at least 10 likes (minimum) per post, so she should have at least 110,582 likes, if they were carried over.

Well, let's get the math right. 115,820 likes for Hope.
While I'm at it, 157,620 for Geevee.

 

[RickshawFan]

Well, let's get the math right. 115,820 likes for Hope.
While I'm at it, 157,620 for Geevee.

The forum really likes that 113 trophy number. Geevee H4M, and I are neck and neck for unfathomable reasons.

 

[geevee]

Yes, that he believed the over the Hughes was a red flag about how good she was at manipulation.

But, I'm looking at it from another point of view. Travis was being manipulated all right, as were the Hughes.

However Travis felt about the at that point, though, the Hughes were supposed to be some of his closest friends. As Travis said to Sky, he believed that Sky and Chris were his "unconditional" friends; in other words, that they loved him for who he was, as he was.

Yet, Travis on January 29 believed these "unconditional" friends by all appearances had believed everything the said about him, had LISTENED to all the derogatory things she had said about him, over THREE DAYS, and had on every occasion sympathized with HER and HER feelings.

It's TA's response to the Hughes, given what HE believed to be true, (and further in, in response to what they say to him to justify what they said) that I think helps provide some insight into how he responded to not just manipulation, but IMO what Travis got right the first time around (truly egregious boundary crossing by the HUGHES), and how readily he forgave them.

(He recognized that the Hughes had violated those boundaries and was justifiably upset & angry with them. At first. No matter what else he saw & got wrong about the situation, he got that part just right).

Do you know if Travis countered what Sky said in her response (about the 'your sister' business)? That was all clearly ' baloney, how she was the dirty secret he'd only undercover mess with - even though all his friends knew about her and teased him relentlessly, even CH.

I was so proud of how he stood up to their behavior and wished Travis hadn't been so easy to forgive, they overstepped their bounds by far too much (even if they had been right about the situation, which they were not).

 

[RickshawFan]

The forum really likes that 113 trophy number. Geevee H4M, and I are neck and neck for unfathomable reasons.

LMAO Niner has 113 trophies, too!

 

[FelicityLemon]

Check your settings. I'm clearly not getting enough trophies even though I'm getting as many as H4M, which makes it all exponentially ludicrous.

LOL! (This is where I miss having those cute little gifs/emojis/whatever they're called)

 

[Hope4More]

Do you know if Travis countered what Sky said in her response (about the 'your sister' business)? That was all clearly ' baloney, how she was the dirty secret he'd only undercover mess with - even though all his friends knew about her and teased him relentlessly, even CH.

I was so proud of how he stood up to their behavior and wished Travis hadn't been so easy to forgive, they overstepped their bounds by far too much (even if they had been right about the situation, which they were not).

I still ( kinda sorta) intend to take the time to type up the remainder of the email exchange. What's left is a digging out of Sky's responses to each paragraph of TA's original email (her reply email, with those original TA sections is a very dense 9 page reply). (Then Chris H's far shorter reply, then Travis explaining at great length his pain about Deanna, then TA's no worries all is forgiven, think nothing of it, go comfort the reply).

She sent this second email to Travis TWO DAYS after her 15 minute "prompt" reply, and in all kinds of crucial ways, again chose to validate & support the 's feelings over those of her best friend Travis, who she loved unconditionally (yes, that is sarcasm).

Chris wrote Travis as well. He had the decency to apologize to Travis far more quickly than did his wife, but not for the right reasons, imo.

I'm still trying to put into words what I believe this email exchange illuminates about Travis's vulnerabilities.

Until then. What Travis needed and DESERVED were friends who were loyal to HIM. Travis said in a subsequent email about those 3 days that he wasn't upset by Chris & Sky's lack of loyalty. He should have been. It is revealing that he was not.

Travis was grieving Deanna at the time, the loss of their close relationship, and he was feeling a huge amount of pain, guilt, and remorse at not being able to commit to this woman he loved deeply and enjoyed being with.

Sky told Travis she knew he was in pain over Deanna, and that he wasn't ready for another relationship. Then, in the next breath, she berated him for not being ready to get married, and for not committing to the .

AFTER Travis sent his "crossed the line" email, Sky directly, explicitly, and unapologetically told Travis -repeatedly- that HE was responsible for the 's "pain." Etc.

And yet......as you'll see, Travis forgave and forgave and forgave.

 

[Hope4More]

Wow, that is disgusting news.

I hope the COA clerk is wrong. I hope the COA responds favorably to the State's argument of a few weeks ago, that just because (JSS) felt a need to seal at trial doesn't mean what was sealed then needs to stay sealed now, years later, while her appeals play out.

I hope that because I really want to see the entire trial record, at long last.

But, I also think that allowing so much of the trial record to stay sealed would be an injustice- to the victim in this case, and to the public.

That JSS erred, legally & constitutionally, on the side of protecting the 's "rights" over the public's rights to an open trial is indisputable.

She repeatedly allowed secrecy when none was required or arguably, even necessary, including multiple ex parte meetings in chambers with the & DT, over JM's vehement objections.

What galls me most, though, is the prospect that the lying, cowardly defense PP2 witnesses, who were allowed to slime Travis without showing their faces in court, may NEVER be named.

That IMO would be a genuine travesty of justice.

 

[pocketaccent]

I hope the COA clerk is wrong. I hope the COA responds favorably to the State's argument of a few weeks ago, that just because (JSS) felt a need to seal at trial doesn't mean what was sealed then needs to stay sealed now, years later, while her appeals play out.

I hope that because I really want to see the entire trial record, at long last.

But, I also think that allowing so much of the trial record to stay sealed would be an injustice- to the victim in this case, and to the public.

That JSS erred, legally & constitutionally, on the side of protecting the 's "rights" over the public's rights to an open trial is indisputable.

She repeatedly allowed secrecy when none was required or arguably, even necessary, including multiple ex parte meetings in chambers with the & DT, over JM's vehement objections.

What galls me most, though, is the prospect that the lying, cowardly defense PP2 witnesses, who were allowed to slime Travis without showing their faces in court, may NEVER be named.

That IMO would be a genuine travesty of justice.

((Hope4More))
I hope the clerk was wrong, too. In fact, this morning, I thought about suggesting to you to give another call in hopes of getting another clerk (with different and better understanding) on the phone, but I didn't want to ruin your vacation by doing so.

That's what I do in many occasions. When I call for customer service or just have questions to a company or Dmv, or whomever, if I determine during the call that the agent isn't knowledgeable or kind, I just thank them, hang up, and call back a short while later hoping for another agent to help me. Unbelievable how many times this method actually works.

I agree with you on JSS. On top of everything you said, I've never seen such numerous sidebars during trial, ever. One time, JM objected, she remained silent, JM told her 'Judge, I make an objection, you rule!', then I think, iirc, she called for a sidebar.

Let's hope for the best.

 

[FelicityLemon]

I don't get this at all and at first I'd been thinking it was because I'm at least 25 years older than those folks and have had encounters with people like the (and certainly I would have recognized her for what she was from the beginning), but WHAT KIND OF WOMAN 1) is told clearly not to come to someone's home, 2) crawls through a doggie door into the home she wasn't invited to and 3) sleeps under his Christmas tree?

DIDN'T THAT SET OFF ANYBODY'S ALARMS? How can that be? How many people were there that night and knew what she what she did?

Holy ! If a new woman (or man if it was my female friend) did those things, there'd be an intervention with my friend male or female and possibly a call to police no matter how 'sweet, unassuming, gentle and loving and harmless' he or she appeared to be. It's not like this was decades ago before the world knew about stalkers and stalking behavior. Not meant to be rude, but a genuine question: are Mormons so insulated that they're unaware of abnormal behavior? Was she just so blonde and big-boobed that she hoodwinked all the males? Really, not even a single suspicious female friend or observer noticed something "off" about her?

Am I misremembering or misunderstanding the timeline? Please, tell me, it wouldn't be the first time in this case, lol. Jeezopeez, she did so much damage with so many red flags in an incredibly short period of time, it truly is difficult for me to remember correctly. I know the majority of this wasn't known at the time this was happening, but honesttogod, there were enough warning signs from the very beginning that it's so hard to imagine that not one person has come forward and said that they even felt something was not right with her. NOBODY is that good that they have every person fooled within a circle of friends and business associates. NOBODY.

 

[pocketaccent]

And yet......as you'll see, Travis forgave and forgave and forgave.

And forgave again, then forgave some more.
I feel so very sad for Travis.

 

[RickshawFan]

.......I'm still trying to put into words what I believe this email exchange illuminates about Travis's vulnerabilities.

Until then. What Travis needed and DESERVED were friends who were loyal to HIM. Travis said in a subsequent email about those 3 days that he wasn't upset by Chris & Sky's lack of loyalty. He should have been. It is revealing that he was not......

It's possible TA says he wasn't upset about C & S loyalty, but either consciously or unconsciously he was. VERY. In the first email, he clearly is very upset. He might have forgiven C & S, but still be very upset; this might have confused him. And he was so torn up about Deanna (did C & S mess with that relationship, too?) that strong feelings he was presented with at this time may have prevented him from sorting it out.

Sky (and Chris) really has a problem in all this. Why did they let this stranger show up in their home unannounced and stick around for 3 days? (That's what happened, correct?) There must have been some latent hostility towards Travis that facilitated the manipulation? That later allowed her to believe that TA was a pedophile, despite being amply forewarned that was a liar and manipulator? Despite knowing murdered him? Despite how creeped out the made the family feel, so creeped out, in fact, that they once asked her to leave (and she wouldn't)? That's some vast well of hostility.

 

[RickshawFan]

...

I hope that because I really want to see the entire trial record, at long last.

But, I also think that allowing so much of the trial record to stay sealed would be an injustice- to the victim in this case, and to the public.....

Someone could say all that in court? That the public has a legal right to know and therefore the transcripts can't be sealed forever? That the sealing was about having a "fair trial", i.e. not about the perp maintaining a certain image.

However, is it normal for cases to be unsealed once they conclude?

 

[RickshawFan]

Can JSS unseal the case transcript and documents when she rules over whether can get a trial do-over?

 

[geevee]

I still ( kinda sorta) intend to take the time to type up the remainder of the email exchange. What's left is a digging out of Sky's responses to each paragraph of TA's original email (her reply email, with those original TA sections is a very dense 9 page reply). (Then Chris H's far shorter reply, then Travis explaining at great length his pain about Deanna, then TA's no worries all is forgiven, think nothing of it, go comfort the reply).

She sent this second email to Travis TWO DAYS after her 15 minute "prompt" reply, and in all kinds of crucial ways, again chose to validate & support the 's feelings over those of her best friend Travis, who she loved unconditionally (yes, that is sarcasm).

Chris wrote Travis as well. He had the decency to apologize to Travis far more quickly than did his wife, but not for the right reasons, imo.

I'm still trying to put into words what I believe this email exchange illuminates about Travis's vulnerabilities.

Until then. What Travis needed and DESERVED were friends who were loyal to HIM. Travis said in a subsequent email about those 3 days that he wasn't upset by Chris & Sky's lack of loyalty. He should have been. It is revealing that he was not.

Travis was grieving Deanna at the time, the loss of their close relationship, and he was feeling a huge amount of pain, guilt, and remorse at not being able to commit to this woman he loved deeply and enjoyed being with.

Sky told Travis she knew he was in pain over Deanna, and that he wasn't ready for another relationship. Then, in the next breath, she berated him for not being ready to get married, and for not committing to the .

AFTER Travis sent his "crossed the line" email, Sky directly, explicitly, and unapologetically told Travis -repeatedly- that HE was responsible for the 's "pain." Etc.

And yet......as you'll see, Travis forgave and forgave and forgave.

Take your time in the typing (if you intend to), I'm grateful not only for the time and effort you put into it but also the context and reasoning you add, always so on the mark and well thought out.

Like Rickshaw, I have to wonder how much involvement they had with his relationship/breakup with Deanna, they didn't seem to be able to keep their noses out of his private business.

All through the first trial I couldn't figure out why so many seemed to think so much of these two, when with what we knew then the word that kept coming to mind was 'meddlers' and not the true friends to TA as they held themselves out to be.

 

[Hope4More]

I don't get this at all and at first I'd been thinking it was because I'm at least 25 years older than those folks and have had encounters with people like the (and certainly I would have recognized her for what she was from the beginning), but WHAT KIND OF WOMAN 1) is told clearly not to come to someone's home, 2) crawls through a doggie door into the home she wasn't invited to and 3) sleeps under his Christmas tree?

DIDN'T THAT SET OFF ANYBODY'S ALARMS? How can that be? How many people were there that night and knew what she what she did?

Holy ****! If a new woman (or man if it was my female friend) did those things, there'd be an intervention with my friend male or female and possibly a call to police no matter how 'sweet, unassuming, gentle and loving and harmless' he or she appeared to be. It's not like this was decades ago before the world knew about stalkers and stalking behavior. Not meant to be rude, but a genuine question: are Mormons so insulated that they're unaware of abnormal behavior? Was she just so blonde and big-boobed that she hoodwinked all the males? Really, not even a single suspicious female friend or observer noticed something "off" about her?

Am I misremembering or misunderstanding the timeline? Please, tell me, it wouldn't be the first time in this case, lol. Jeezopeez, she did so much damage with so many red flags in an incredibly short period of time, it truly is difficult for me to remember correctly. I know the majority of this wasn't known at the time this was happening, but honesttogod, there were enough warning signs from the very beginning that it's so hard to imagine that not one person has come forward and said that they even felt something was not right with her. NOBODY is that good that they have every person fooled within a circle of friends and business associates. NOBODY.

1. December, 2006. She didn't crawl through the doggie door to get in. Travis was hosting a fairly major, overnight PPL event at his house. PPL'ers from Utah & California flew and drove to Mesa to attend. Deanna was expected, which was one on the list of reasons why Travis did not want the there. The told Travis she wanted to come too. He told her no, that there wasn't enough room, his house was already going to be completely full with overnight guests.

Being the , she didn't take no for an answer. Shortly after being told not to come, she told Travis-- Guess what! I'll be there in Mesa anyway, because a friend has invited me out to stay with her.

There was no friend, of course. The simply showed up at his doorstep, waltzed right in, and wouldn't leave. She slept under the Christmas tree because there really wasn't enough room for her there.

Her drive from CA to Mesa is kinda interesting, BTW, given how determined she already was to infiltrate & insert herself into TA's life (for example, she had already begun pressuring Travis to ask her to move to Mesa).

First the tried to worm her way into one of the Mesa-bound cars heading out from CA, including Chris H's, but all the cars were full-up. So, she decided to drive herself, but then manipulated a PPL'er, in Sky's words, "she had been working on for weeks" into driving out with her.

Sky uses the pseudonym "Jack" in her book for this PPL'er. She writes that when "Jack" arrived in Mesa, he told Chris and others that he had met his soul mate in the , and wanted to call his wife immediately to tell her he wanted a divorce.

[["Jack" was a high earner/upper echelon PPL'ER, from California, married with kids, and the had done far more than "just" flirt with him to try to make Travis jealous. IMO, best guess is that "Jack" is Kyle K, and that he IS the "stranger" tried to reel in after Travis broke up with her in June, 2007.]]

As for TA's friends noticing the many red flags that were there from the very beginning. Actually, many of TA's friends DID think something was off about the . At least several of his women friends thought the was downright creepy from first meeting. Taylor was completely alienated by the acting as if she was the lady of the house, greeting TA's friends at the door as if she lived there.

More still of TA's friends were put off (and some disgusted) by the fact that the literally would not leave Travis alone when she was around him. She clung to him, wrapped herself around him, kissed his neck, and followed him wherever he went (including to stand watch outside the bathroom, remember?).

Is it any wonder that Travis stopped inviting her to any & all of the regular social gatherings he had in his house?