Sentencing: death penalty or life in prison?

[rdm64]

OMG...I missed this ....where did it get reported that she had a head wound. could someone post a link?

Thanks!

One article said that he hit her, then he strangled her. Must have been that hit causing the head wound. I'll see if I can find a link. It was an article someone posted today.

here's the link: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/09/18/2009-09-18_murder_ink_a_pen_may_put_creep_in_prison_for_ke eps.html

just to be clear here a 180lb man strongly slapping or lightly punching a 90lb female on the mouth will cause a split lip which actually can bleed quite a lot. anything is possible, but the simplest answer is usually the best and nothing excludes the simplest on which is a split lip from a slap or a punched nose. if you have ever seen participants in a street fight you can have a guy who is bleeding like heck and who only injury is a 1/8 cut from his own tooth cutting his lip from a strong slap or light punch.

 

[rabidstoat]

Unless there's a sexual assault, I just don't see this as a DP case. And even if there IS a sexual assault, I'm not sure if there's the requirement that it be processed as a DP case. The prosecutor may have the option, which could pull other factors into consideration.

In fact, I imagine it's even possible that this could be neither DP or LWOP. It could be a life sentence with eventual parole possible, if there was no sexual assault and it was deemed a spontaneous crime of passion. I believe that's possible if it's convicted as second degree murder, say. Though IANAL.

Incidentally, I have watched too much of the "Most Evil" TV show, and now whenever I hear of a crime, I keep thinking of Professor's Stone Scale of Evil. I'm not sure where RC (if guilty, of course, which I think he is but presumption of innocence) would fall. Maybe level 8 -- "Non psychopathic people with smoldering rage who kill when rage is ignited." Or is he is considered to be psychopathic, I guess he could be level 13 -- "Psychopathic killers with inadequate, rage-filled personalities who 'snapped'." That's the highest on the scale I'd see him being, though.

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_Evil#The_scale_of_evil

 

[Kat]

why is infuriating? second degree murder isn't a capital offense anywhere in the states. The evidence so far points to second .

Was he charged with murder in the second degree? I missed that, I did try to listen to the court proceedings this morning.

I thought the charge was Murder.

I can't find a video where the judge reads the charges. Only news coverage.

 

[songline]

SHOCKED
With no known motive yet, or anything regarding the chain of events and you are all talking LWOP or death
I do not mean to be rude, but boy am I glad that nobody here is working at the electric chair department.
How fast would that button be pushed?

No offense but we do know that:
- Murder gets LWOP or Death. - He may fall in this category.
- Temporary insanity get s different verdict. - what if he falls in this category?
BUT what if he is protecting someone else????

We do not even know WHY or WHAT HAPPEND and WOW.
This thread just shocked me....
I would expect a thread of this kind ONLY after much more information was listed.
So far I still have a hard time wrapping my head around any of the findings.
So far I do not see Le as a nicer person then Clark...
so far I am still perplexed that not only Clark and Girlfriend took off from work on
Tuesday but also her sister and brother in law.
I do not even know if he is not protecting someone else....:waitasec:

 

[Noway]

It would be at the probable cause hearing, according to Timothy Everett, a professor of law at the University of Connecticut School of Law, where a prosecutor would argue for the charge to be upgraded to capital murder, the only charge in the state for which the death penalty can be invoked.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/raymond-clark-alleged-annie-le-murderer-death-penalty/story?id=8613554

There is the possibility this will become a capital murder. The premeditation issue is one that has been raised. (As mentioned above, having the time to think about what he was doing while strangling her and what I read from the JVM transcript.)

And again, "The New York Daily News" reporting Clark spent an hour with Annie Le`s lifeless body before he left.

So Drew Findling, the big question, what did he do during that hour? Obviously, they could find out if he made phone calls, looking for help in disposing the body?

FINDLING: Clearly, they`re going to put a time period together and time line to see whether or not he was text messaging or making phone calls during that period of time.

Also, obviously they`re going to make the allegation that during that period of time, if they believe he did it, which they do, that he was trying to secret away the evidence of the crime. That`s fairly obvious. They`re going to allege that.

Jane, I do want to say, though, I feel compelled to say there`s a lot of conjecture about him loving and this and that. A psychopathic comment was made. I can tell you right now that defense attorneys would be remiss not to look into psychological, psychiatric issues. And remember, we`re not necessarily talking about insanity, but you have to anticipate as a defense attorney, and these public defenders will, mitigation. If you`re getting slammed by DNA, you have to start thinking about it. And as the doctor -- Dr. Archer...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, except...

BLOOM: He hides her body in a wall.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And guess what?

BLOOM: That sounds like premeditated murder to me.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0909/18/ijvm.01.html

BLOOM is Lisa Bloom, CNN Legal Analyst.

This confused me a little. Hiding her body made it sound like premeditated murder? Or was it the whole situation?

 

[Gene]

So far I do not see Le as a nicer person then Clark...

You don't? I would say that someone who kills someone else qualifies as more than "Not Nice". Since Annie did not kill another human and (assuming it is proven) Clark did, I would say that Le IS a nicer person than Clark.

 

[Kat]

It would be at the probable cause hearing, according to Timothy Everett, a professor of law at the University of Connecticut School of Law, where a prosecutor would argue for the charge to be upgraded to capital murder, the only charge in the state for which the death penalty can be invoked.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/raymond-clark-alleged-annie-le-murderer-death-penalty/story?id=8613554

There is the possibility this will become a capital murder. The premeditation issue is one that has been raised. (As mentioned above, having the time to think about what he was doing while strangling her and what I read from the JVM transcript.)



http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0909/18/ijvm.01.html

BLOOM is Lisa Bloom, CNN Legal Analyst.

This confused me a little. Hiding her body made it sound like premeditated murder? Or was it the whole situation?

I went to the link and followed the conversation prior to that remark by Bloom. It IMHO it was a quip she was using to argue the point the guest before her made that could potentially be used as a defense strategy (mitigation) if his defense lawyers choose to use that...

Hiding a body in the fashion that he did would be hard to prove premediation? :waitasec: Now if he had removed her body from the area he had murdered her and secreted her body elsehwere...I could see it...JMHO.

All in all I think Bloom and JVM and the other guest were having a lively convo...JMHO.


As for the article you brought to us Noway about the discussion of specifics to the statute. That is invaluable to this thread. Thank you very much!

I will post a few excerpts but as little as possible because of copyright infringement.

..."Murder alone does not carry the death penalty in Connecticut unless the state goes further and charges a capital felony," said Everett. "In order to charge a person with a capital felony, a person would have to commit a murder in a number of ways specified in the statute."

According to that statute, the death penalty is applicable to any individual who murders a police officer, hires someone to murder, murders while he was already convicted of a murder or murders while he is sentenced to life in prison.

Convicted murderers can also be executed if they killed someone while committing first-degree sexual assault or killed a person whom they had kidnapped. Double-murders, as well as the murder of a person under the age of 16, is also punishable by death...

There you have the statute. Then we also have a revision to the kidnapping statute in CT that makes it far more difficult for the State to stretch the definition of kidnapping in order to add it as a charge as well.

I think the best information here is this statement:

...In Clark's case, the affidavits have not yet been released and little is known about what exactly went into Le's killing...

We have no affidavits, we have no search warrants, we have no autopsy results...we don't know what he to her did leading up to her murder. Impossible to predict premeditation for me as an observer. IMHO. However, given what we have seen I am thinking at this particular time no premeditation. That is jmho.

Now don't get me wrong, when someone commits a crime I want them to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, for the crime that was committed. I do take issue with stretching or skewing the statutes in order to further punish a defendent. No matter how atrocious their crime is...I do think this was an atrocious crime. IMHO.

 

[Sola.N]

I think a LOT will be clearer when that arrest warrant gets unsealed week after next. If the document drop is even half as revealing as what was in the Billings case documents (I'm guessing there'll be less due to differences in the law between Florida and Connecticut), we'll get a glimpse into what evidence they have on RC and what the various interviewees had to say. I'm particularly interested in hearing what the coworkers may have said, because I think that'll give us a much better idea of motive.

I still think this may turn out to be murder two or manslaughter, particularly if RC takes a deal. Unless it turns out that he raped her, he sent emails or had conversations with others about planning to murder her, and/or he mutilated her corpse, I don't see this turning into a death penalty case.

 

[Kat]

I think a LOT will be clearer when that arrest warrant gets unsealed week after next. If the document drop is even half as revealing as what was in the Billings case documents (I'm guessing there'll be less due to differences in the law between Florida and Connecticut), we'll get a glimpse into what evidence they have on RC and what the various interviewees had to say. I'm particularly interested in hearing what the coworkers may have said, because I think that'll give us a much better idea of motive.

I still think this may turn out to be murder two or manslaughter, particularly if RC takes a deal. Unless it turns out that he raped her, he sent emails or had conversations with others about planning to murder her, and/or he mutilated her corpse, I don't see this turning into a death penalty case.

I agree Sola.N.

Off topic do you happen to know if the docs are released in CT as they are in other states? (FL comes to mind with their Sunshine Law).

I know CA doesn't do it, and a few other states, but I haven't really followed a case in CT before. TIA for any insight you might have.

 

[Sola.N]

No, I'm not as familiar with the laws in Connecticut. Maybe someone on the forum who lives there has a better feel for how much will be released and when.

 

[Noway]

http://www.state.ct.us/foi/2008FOIA/2008FOIAStatutoryIndex.htm

This makes my head spin! I hope there is someone out there who can give us an idea of what we might expect ...

 

[panthera]

With the limited information we have now, there isn't even anything that shows the crime was premeditated, other than the COD being strangulation which takes longer than firing a gun, for example. So, I'm not seeing it as meeting the requirements for the DP. :waitasec: MOO

 

[songline]

You don't? I would say that someone who kills someone else qualifies as more than "Not Nice". Since Annie did not kill another human and (assuming it is proven) Clark did, I would say that Le IS a nicer person than Clark.

assuming it is proven is the operative word here.
YES then I would understand this thread for sure.
Right now I really don't know what happened or why?
So I think a penalty is premature, because we do not have anything yet.
We do have a dead girl who did not deserve to die.
We have 4 people that did not go to work that day. With one persons DNA.
Clark his fiance, her sister and brother in-law, all skipped work.

I think PENALTY thread is like putting the carriage before the horse.
SO like I originally said I do not see either the victim or the accused as one being a nicer
person the the other, based on all the things that family and friends have said about them.
I hope we will find out more about this senseless death.
But I am not ready to penalize this young man yet. I hope he has a great attorney.
Let the truth show up sooner rather then later.

 

[Kat]

http://www.state.ct.us/foi/2008FOIA/2008FOIAStatutoryIndex.htm

This makes my head spin! I hope there is someone out there who can give us an idea of what we might expect ...

Gaw Noway, makes my head spin too.

 

[masscph]

Just have to let it out :furious: i have no words for how much i want to see this guy suffer for what he has done.

Im against DP as i think it is too easy way out for theese people, i like the idea that people like this are held alive as long as possible and make their every second of their life a pure misery.

On the other hand, i dont know how US prisoners will treat a guy like him, i know that back here he would have to get isolated for life or packed into areas with child-offenders to prevent getting hurt bad by fellow inmates.

So unless he should fear for his life the rest of his living days, then i might prefer a DP afterall.

 

[Emily Booth]

assuming it is proven is the operative word here.
YES then I would understand this thread for sure.
Right now I really don't know what happened or why?
So I think a penalty is premature, because we do not have anything yet.
We do have a dead girl who did not deserve to die.
We have 4 people that did not go to work that day. With one persons DNA.
Clark his fiance, her sister and brother in-law, all skipped work.

I think PENALTY thread is like putting the carriage before the horse.
SO like I originally said I do not see either the victim or the accused as one being a nicer
person the the other, based on all the things that family and friends have said about them.
I hope we will find out more about this senseless death.
But I am not ready to penalize this young man yet. I hope he has a great attorney.
Let the truth show up sooner rather then later.

With all due respect, Raymond Clark was arrested in the state of CT for the murder of Annie Le on or about September 8. This is a discussion, and a very good one, IMO, about the penalty for murder in the state of CT.

Please post the link or source that reported that Raymond Clark, his fiance, his sister and his BIL did not go to work Tuesday, September 8.

 

[songline]

With all due respect, Raymond Clark was arrested in the state of CT for the murder of Annie Le on or about September 8. This is a discussion, and a very good one, IMO, about the penalty for murder in the state of CT.

Please post the link or source that reported that Raymond Clark, his fiance, his sister and his BIL did not go to work Tuesday, September 8.

I know he was arrested and is awaiting a trial, with a 3 million bail that he can never raise.
I am pretty sure I had posted that link. but there are so many threads now.
I will try to find it.
And yesterday I also posted something from a journalist who is trying to bring attention to this in hope of getting a fair trial.
I know he was arrested and is awaiting a trial. I still think it is premature to talk of the penalty before a case has even had its first hearing.
I also know that when 3 relatives help the one outsider my hinky meter goes way up.
I do not know who did what...that is my fact. I do not think that anyone knows anything clearly yet. Could he be the perp - yes he can, could it look like he is - yes it can.

I did a fat google search look at the first post:
[ame="http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBF_enUS316US316&q=Clark+did+not+show+up+to+work+on+Tuesday"]Clark did not show up to work on Tuesday - Google Search[/ame]

Then read this.

Andrew Cohen: Maybe We Should Have A Trial Before We Hang Raymond Clark III
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/21/crimesider/entry5327475.shtml?tag=cbsnewsCrimesiderArea.0

 

[Noway]

Clark's sister, brother-in-law and fiancee, Jennifer Hromadka, also worked in the lab building but did not go to work this week

http://a.abcnews.com/m/screen?id=8598755&pid=248

Outside the apartment complex in Middletown, throngs of reporters gathered throughout the day as Clark’s name leaked out from investigators. Lewis said at the press conference that Clark has retained an attorney, and a person who works with Clark said Clark, his sister, brother-in-law and fiancée did not show up for work on the medical school campus on Tuesday.

http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/u...yee-detained-police-call-him-person-interest/

I just Googled some key words and found several references to them not showing up for work. (sister, brother in law, ray clark, work)

Them not showing for work does not prove involvement. Perhaps at this point, they believed Ray was going to be arrested and charged and were avoiding the media?

Songline, I did not understand: I also know that when 3 relatives help the one outsider my hinky meter goes way up.

The 3 relatives: Ray, his sister, his brother-in-law
The outsider: The fiancee

But how did they help her?

 

[Noway]

I think it is human nature, when a heinous crime is committed, that people comment on the suspected guilty one "getting the death penalty."

Not everyone thinks like a lawyer and says "innocent until proven guilty, then let's talk about the penalty phase." But it's not a bad idea to gently remind us.

Since I'm on a crime forum discussing the case (and its future), and not a judge in the case I feel okay making the out-of-sequence jump.

 

[Harmony 2]

I know he was arrested and is awaiting a trial, with a 3 million bail that he can never raise.
I am pretty sure I had posted that link. but there are so many threads now.
I will try to find it.
And yesterday I also posted something from a journalist who is trying to bring attention to this in hope of getting a fair trial.
I know he was arrested and is awaiting a trial. I still think it is premature to talk of the penalty before a case has even had its first hearing.
I also know that when 3 relatives help the one outsider my hinky meter goes way up.
I do not know who did what...that is my fact. I do not think that anyone knows anything clearly yet. Could he be the perp - yes he can, could it look like he is - yes it can.

I did a fat google search look at the first post:
Clark did not show up to work on Tuesday - Google Search

Then read this.

Andrew Cohen: Maybe We Should Have A Trial Before We Hang Raymond Clark III
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/21/crimesider/entry5327475.shtml?tag=cbsnewsCrimesiderArea.0

Song, that is in reference to Tuesday September 15th. Annie went missing September 8th and she went to Amistad after receiving a text from RC requesting a meeting. He swiped his Yale ID after she arrived at 10 that morning.