Separating FACT from fiction

[Myself]

I do understand now.
I just don't understand why in the world they were allowed to make public statements saying that it exonerated anybody when it clearly did not.
But I guess that's what you can expect from this case.. Sigh.
I think I misunderstood UKs comment about the DNA from John Ramsey but he has cleared that up now.
You have to remember that the last time I read about this case was a few years ago.
I have thought about re reading material such as PMPT and Steve Thomas book & Death of Innocence and going through it all again but can't find any interested parties.
I guess I thought the touch DNA was stronger than other DNA and a breakthrough & otherwise why would they have mentioned it but I can see now it still isnt a DNA case.

 

[anne11]

I'm sorry to go off topic does anyone know if BR had his Scouting first aid certificate;
here is a snippet from the handbook for the scout book first aid merit badge -
Tourniquet -- (For use in emergencies only) tie a cravat, rope or belt above the wound as tight as possible, in order to completely cut off circulation to the injured area. The most typical method of tying it is a simple overhand knot, held tight while a pencil or stick is placed on top of the middle of the knot. Another overhand knot is tied, and the pencil or stick can be twisted to tighten the knot. Cutting off circulation for extended periods can lead to the amputation of the limb, so this must not be used unless all other methods have been tried and there is no hope for help in the near future. The time should be noted when the tourniquet is applied, as this will be helpful for the doctors.
Explain when a bee sting could be life threatening and what action should be taken for prevention and for first aid.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm sorry to go off topic does anyone know if BR had his Scouting first aid certificate;
here is a snippet from the handbook for the scout book first aid merit badge -
Tourniquet -- (For use in emergencies only) tie a cravat, rope or belt above the wound as tight as possible, in order to completely cut off circulation to the injured area. The most typical method of tying it is a simple overhand knot, held tight while a pencil or stick is placed on top of the middle of the knot. Another overhand knot is tied, and the pencil or stick can be twisted to tighten the knot. Cutting off circulation for extended periods can lead to the amputation of the limb, so this must not be used unless all other methods have been tried and there is no hope for help in the near future. The time should be noted when the tourniquet is applied, as this will be helpful for the doctors.
Explain when a bee sting could be life threatening and what action should be taken for prevention and for first aid.

anne11,
I'm not certain about that, but he knew how to tie knots, particularly at sea, his father would have shown him how to do all the important sailing knots. His father took him sailing regularly.


.

 

[Whaleshark]

I'm sorry to go off topic does anyone know if BR had his Scouting first aid certificate;
here is a snippet from the handbook for the scout book first aid merit badge -
Tourniquet -- (For use in emergencies only) tie a cravat, rope or belt above the wound as tight as possible, in order to completely cut off circulation to the injured area. The most typical method of tying it is a simple overhand knot, held tight while a pencil or stick is placed on top of the middle of the knot. Another overhand knot is tied, and the pencil or stick can be twisted to tighten the knot. Cutting off circulation for extended periods can lead to the amputation of the limb, so this must not be used unless all other methods have been tried and there is no hope for help in the near future. The time should be noted when the tourniquet is applied, as this will be helpful for the doctors.
Explain when a bee sting could be life threatening and what action should be taken for prevention and for first aid.

Yep, much discussion has been had on this as well...I pasted into a thread regarding this very thing in which I said it could have been a tourniquet, and showed illustrations of how a tourniquet example in the scouts handbook looks almost exactly like the stick and rope around her.... But there's much debate on whether it was twisted around her neck for tightening or not.

I said that it did look like a twisted knot wound at the back of the neck, after even being wrapped around her neck too... Also could be how the hair got stuck in the stick if it's being wrapped and then twisted for tightening like a tourniquet around her neck.... Not twisted from afar though... Then some insist that's not true because it was only staging or only a complicated garrote ....

And the debate goes on...

 

[acmeintuitiveenergy]

The son did it. The father covered and the Mom wrote the notes.

 

[anne11]

Does anyone know if the nearly packed luggage and plastic bag packed for Charlevoix were searched

 

[Darlene733510]

I am kind of rusty on this case, so please excuse if I ask something that has already been discussed.
I imagine the housekeeper did the laundry, folded and put the clothes away. Did they have her DNA, and could it have been put there when she folded and put the clothes away.
Having had 6 children their clothes often up inside out, and I would correct that as I folded the clothes, which would leave my DNA on the waistband.
Having worked in a nursing home, and seen what happens when they passed away, I
know that all of them had a release of urine and bowels when they passed. I would
presume this would have happened to JBR. If it did, who cleaned up the mess, and what happened to the soiled clothing? Was there other clothing she had on that was disposed of
before the size 12 undies, and the long johns were put on her?

 

[DeeDee249]

I am kind of rusty on this case, so please excuse if I ask something that has already been discussed.
I imagine the housekeeper did the laundry, folded and put the clothes away. Did they have her DNA, and could it have been put there when she folded and put the clothes away.
Having had 6 children their clothes often up inside out, and I would correct that as I folded the clothes, which would leave my DNA on the waistband.
Having worked in a nursing home, and seen what happens when they passed away, I
know that all of them had a release of urine and bowels when they passed. I would
presume this would have happened to JBR. If it did, who cleaned up the mess, and what happened to the soiled clothing? Was there other clothing she had on that was disposed of
before the size 12 undies, and the long johns were put on her?

Yes, this is certainly a possibility. We do know that male members of the housekeepers family gave DNA samples, so obviously it didn't match any of them. That is the problem with "Touch" DNA- it comes from a touch. Any touch. Skin cells are the source of touch DNA (including that found on JB's clothing). And we all pick up skin cells every day, everywhere. The skin cells in this case offered DNA that appears NO WHERE else in that crime scene, which makes it unlikely that it belongs to someone who was there committing the crime.

 

[anne11]

In 1999 thinking one or both of them would be arrested, the R's signed over custody of BR to JR"s brother, i find this unusual did they fear he would be made a ward of the state and why JR's brother to get custody when they appearred to be closer to PR's side of the family.

 

[Charterhouse]

As mentioned earlier, I too, would love a thread just on touch DNA in general.

If I may ask, if the Ramseys transfered touch DNA to JB clothing does that mean that none of their DNA would have been transfered?

I love to read here. You guys are so smart.

I kind of get that the touch DNA could be on JR,BR or PR hand, or not, but wouldn't some of their skin cells transfer also? I am just thinking the DNA that they might have picked up from wherever would not cover their whole hands and fingers.

Of course I understand also that their DNA has a right to be anywhere in their house. I just wish we had more information.

 

[Charterhouse]

I need to ask one more question. I understand that nothing could be released or charges filed with BR because he was underage.

I am sure this has already been discussed but I am not clear on this.

Can BR NOW be held accountable for anything? Or can anything be released NOW regarding BR since he is no longer a minor, if this case is brought to trial? Fact or Fiction?

As you can tell I am not an attorney, so I was never really clear on this.

I am a little disappointed that more has not been done since the GR revelation; but, I understand it takes time.

 

[DeeDee249]

I need to ask one more question. I understand that nothing could be released or charges filed with BR because he was underage.

I am sure this has already been discussed but I am not clear on this.

Can BR NOW be held accountable for anything? Or can anything be released NOW regarding BR since he is no longer a minor, if this case is brought to trial? Fact or Fiction?

As you can tell I am not an attorney, so I was never really clear on this.

I am a little disappointed that more has not been done since the GR revelation; but, I understand it takes time.

No, he can NEVER be held accountable for anything. Even if he admits it or someone else comes forward to blame him. Nothing can be released linking him to the crime. His age NOW doesn't matter. It only matters what his age was THEN- when the crime was committed. If i had happened two weeks later after he turned 10, it would have been very different. If this case is ever brought to trial (which I doubt) he can NEVER be charged with anything. In fact, if he was involved and someone ELSE was also involved who was OVER 10 or an adult, THEY can't be charged either if in doing so the identity of the child under 10 would be revealed. If ever a law needed to be repealed or changed, this is the one.
It isn't a matter of it taking time....this would have seen action LONG ago if the perp had been someone who could have been prosecuted.

 

[DeeDee249]

As mentioned earlier, I too, would love a thread just on touch DNA in general.

If I may ask, if the Ramseys transfered touch DNA to JB clothing does that mean that none of their DNA would have been transfered?

I love to read here. You guys are so smart.

I kind of get that the touch DNA could be on JR,BR or PR hand, or not, but wouldn't some of their skin cells transfer also? I am just thinking the DNA that they might have picked up from wherever would not cover their whole hands and fingers.

Of course I understand also that their DNA has a right to be anywhere in their house. I just wish we had more information.

The parents' touch DNA certainly could have transferred to JB's clothing. It is suspicious to note that it was never mentioned whether any R's touch DNA was present. Patsy claimed she put the longjohns on JB at bedtime. She would have HAD to touch them, and in the very spots the other DNA was found (waistband and legs) to pull them on her. And JR was SEEN by Det. Arndt holding JB with his hands around her waist as he carried her in an upright position from the basement. His touch DNA HAD to be there. Yet none was noted. Was it because it was never tested for? Or did the DA's office KNOW it was there and refused to release the information? BOTH parents' DNA HAD to have been there.
Touch DNA belonging to Patsy and BR was found on the bloodstained pink Barbie nightie that was on top of the white blanket she was found wrapped in. Patsy's is not surprising- though it may indicate that Patsy took that pink nightie OFF JB when it got bloodstained, it is not possible to prove that it didn't happen innocently. Every mother handles her kids' clothes. But BR's touch DNA on that nightie is harder to explain innocently.
Yes- the parents lived in the house and their DNA and fibers etc are expected to be there BUT the presence of their fibers and prints on items intimately connected to the crime, such as the tape, cord, panties, paint tote simply have no innocent explanation, IMO.

 

[Charterhouse]

Thanks DeeDee you answered two questions I was very interested in.

I was especially interested in the one about BR and what would happen now.

That certainly does sound like a law that needs to be repealed.

 

[arielilane]

No, he can NEVER be held accountable for anything. Even if he admits it or someone else comes forward to blame him. Nothing can be released linking him to the crime. His age NOW doesn't matter. It only matters what his age was THEN- when the crime was committed. If i had happened two weeks later after he turned 10, it would have been very different. If this case is ever brought to trial (which I doubt) he can NEVER be charged with anything. In fact, if he was involved and someone ELSE was also involved who was OVER 10 or an adult, THEY can't be charged either if in doing so the identity of the child under 10 would be revealed. If ever a law needed to be repealed or changed, this is the one.
It isn't a matter of it taking time....this would have seen action LONG ago if the perp had been someone who could have been prosecuted.

Hi DeeDee,
Not sure if i read your post correctly. Are you stating that if a child under nine years of age and an adult are involved in a crime they can't be charged? Tia

 

[DeeDee249]

Hi DeeDee,
Not sure if i read your post correctly. Are you stating that if a child under nine years of age and an adult are involved in a crime they can't be charged? Tia

The way I understand the Colorado law concerning children under 10 is that if there is an accomplice that is OVER 10 they cannot be charged IF doing so would also implicate the underage child. Someone else may have a different take on it, so if anyone else here can explain further, please do so.

 

[Chinese inquisition]

Hi there, I've been visiting this site for months now and I finally joined...greetings fellow websleuthers!

Okay so I was born in 1991 so obviously I was very young when the murder of JBR occurred. I remember hearing about the murder, seeing those tabloids and magazines in the grocery store, my parents talking about it, etc.

A few questions to help me get a better understanding:

1. What sort of rumors/speculations did you hear initially?
2. What sort of facts were presented? What about suspects?
3. What was your gut instinct the Ramsey's or an intruder?
4. Did you base your suspicions on fact or fiction?
5. Has your conclusion changed over time? If so, based on what facts?

 

[MFFJM2]

Facts:

Boulder County Regional Communications Center received a 911 call at 05:52 on 26 Dec 1996 from a woman identifying herself as Patsy Ramsey in which she claimed her daughter had been kidnapped.

Officer Rick French of the BPD arrived at the Ramsey home at 05:56, and he noted that both Mr and Mrs Ramsey were fully dressed and that Mrs Ramsey had "hair and make-up neatly done".

Patsy Ramsey gave conflicting stories about her movements that morning prior to calling 911.

Patsy Ramsey bought an item at McGuckin's Hardware on Dec 2, 1996 for $2.29 according to charge card receipts, which is the exact price as that of nylon cord similar to that used to bind and strangle Jon Benet. The receipt does not provide a description of the item, but it is from the same part of the store where the nylon cord can be found.

The cord looped around the hand of Jon Benet was extremely loosely tied, so that the Medical Examiner could get two fingers between the loop and Jon Benet's skin.

One end of the cord looped around Jon Benet's neck, and used to strangle her, was burned and melted just as the manufacturer does to keep the ends from fraying. The pieces of cord used to tie Jon Benet's hands were cut and frayed. Giving the appearance that the loop around Jon Benet's neck had been cut first and the loops around her hands cut afterwards.

The stick which had the cord from around Jon Benet's neck wrapped around it came from a paintbrush set found in the house.

Dried mucous from her nose had been smeared down the right lip and cheek, with marks from the straight edge of the duct tape that had been placed over her mouth visible, giving the appearance that the mucous was present when the tape was applied.

A perfect impression of her lips was found on the sticky side of the tape found over her mouth, giving the impression that she had not been struggling when it was applied.

 

[DeeDee249]

I believe that same receipt from McGuckin's Hardware also showed an item matching the duct tape in price and also from the same section where the duct tape was sold.
While some feel this may show premeditation- I tend to feel that these are common items found in most homes- but it DOES show they were in the home. These were small enough to be snuck of the home in the UN-SEARCHED pockets of the parents' clothing and coats that they were wearing when they left the house on the 26th. They would also have fit in the golf bag that Patsy's sister took from the house when she raided the house to remove evidence- with police assistance.

 

[MFFJM2]

I was not attempting to show premeditation, because as you point out the cord and duct tape are common household items.

Facts:

The roll of cord and duct tape were not found in the home when it was searched, nor could any other items be found from the Hardware store that would have been from the same location in the store and at the same cost as those items.

In his police interview, which took place at the end of April 1997, John Ramsey stated that he awoke up at 05:25 (before the alarm at 05:30), and that his wife was still asleep. Then while her husband was in the shower Patsy dressed and went downstairs, whereupon she found the "ransom note", and then ran upstairs to check her daughters room (she originally claimed she checked her daughter's room first).

Patsy Ramsey called police at 05:52, and Officer French arrived at 05:56. When did she have time to do her hair, and put on makeup..? Why was she wearing the same clothes she wore the day before..?

Patsy Ramsey claimed to have screamed loud enough for her husband in the third floor bathroom to hear her, but not loud enough to wake her son Burke at the end of the hall.

John Ramsey claims to have been able to see the white blanket covering his daughter in the wine cellar immediately upon entering the room, but police couldn't see a similar blanket in the room even with the lights on until they cleared a short wall past the door.

John Ramsey's friend Fleet White opened the door to this room while searching the house, but was unable to find a light switch and departed without seeing the white blanket covering Jon Benet's body.

Melody Stanton (a neighbor) claimed to have heard a child scream during the night of the murder, emanating from the Ramsey house (she later withdrew this statement). A partially open basement window on the street side of the Ramsey house may have been responsible for Stanton hearing the scream, as it was used to run an electrical cord to provide power for Christimas decorations displayed on the front lawn. This window was too small to permit entry or exit from the Ramsey home.

Patsy Ramsey in her statement to Police in April stated that she had only read a few lines of the "ransom note" when she ran back upstairs to check on Jon Benet in her room. However, during her 911 call she was able to tell the dispatcher that the note ended with the initials "SBTC" and the sign off "Victory".