Separating FACT from fiction

[harleymae]

Fact. or close enough.

The so-called "ransom note" listed $118K as the demand. JR's bonus that year was $118K + change.

That makes me believe it was a family friend. I've always thought the Christmas party is where it started.

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[harleymae]

Has anyone considered the possibility that jonbenet tried to kill herself that night, that she was so distraught that she stood on a chair and tied a rope around her own neck? I know she was only six, but even young children can be pushed to a certain limit and crack. Could patsy have found her daughter almost dead from strangulation and because that would blow the illusion of a perfect family, further staging might have taken place. Or the rope was so tight, it would not come off and it was clear she was in great distress and dying. Could someone have finished the job as a way to end her suffering? Of course, that doesn't explain the head injury. I dont believe an intruder was involved, but will say, the simplest explanation is often the right one.

A six year old? Really though? No. Six year olds pack a Bag and run away. They don't kill themselves.

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[WhereAreTheyNow]

No. There are two things that would disprove this theory:

1) The AR states "Ligature strangulation".
By definition, ligature strangulation is a type of strangulation that occurs with the use of a mass that is not the body weight. In other words, ligature strangulation does not require suspension of the physical body. Instead, it requires the use of a cord-like object, such as a rope.

2) We also know from the AR that the blow to the head preceeded the strangulataion. Several medical experts have verified this.. and I agree. The details of the AR make it evident that the head blow was first, and she was probably unconscious when she was strangled.

kanzz, I must respectfully disagree with your assessment of the sequence of strangulation/head blow. While it is implied in the original forensics that the head blow came first, some prominent forensic experts (not influenced by Team Ramsey) later opined that strangulation was first because marks on her neck near the ligature furrow were caused by her fingernails. Similarly, not all experts believe there is definitive evidence of prior sexual abuse.

Given the small amount of blood found around the brain, it is entirely possible that the head blow occurred during strangulation.

I believe your statement may be accurate but as of now it is opinion rather than established by a judge as fact and therefore may not be appropriate for this thread.

 

[questfortrue]

kanzz, I must respectfully disagree with your assessment of the sequence of strangulation/head blow. While it is implied in the original forensics that the head blow came first, some prominent forensic experts (not influenced by Team Ramsey) later opined that strangulation was first because marks on her neck near the ligature furrow were caused by her fingernails. Similarly, not all experts believe there is definitive evidence of prior sexual abuse.

Given the small amount of blood found around the brain, it is entirely possible that the head blow occurred during strangulation.

I believe your statement may be accurate but as of now it is opinion rather than established by a judge as fact and therefore may not be appropriate for this thread.

Actually, a judge is not the finder of fact. The jury is.

I’ve hesitated to post a follow-up comment since I respect that you’ve read a lot about this and can really understand why you question they are facts vs. opinions. But while I appreciate that you are questioning that they are facts, in this particular case I believe there has been so much speculated, published and posted in forums, that the reality has become foggy with misinformation. I’ll briefly share why I don’t think Kanzz erred in calling these established facts.

To your questioning of whether the asphyxiation came first or the head blow occurred simultaneously with the asphyxiation, I’m not sure who the prominent experts you are mentioning are. So I’ll condense what has been revealed in the last few years. Chief Beckner and Chief Kolar reference the evidence contained in a report by Dr. Lucy Rorke-Adams. We can’t know if another expert would agree with her report because no other TBI pathologist has read it. But Dr. Rorke-Adams was the only expert with a forensic TBI background and a specialty in pediatric pathology to testify to the Grand Jury. A summary of her analysis has been provided by both Kolar and Beckner, and she documented the head blow came first with as much as 45 minutes to 2 hours between the two injuries. Even experts who wondered if the timing between the injuries wasn’t closer together did not disagree that the head blow came first. TMK, there was only one pathologist to differ on which came first, and that was Wecht. His conclusion was based on a perception that there was only a small amount of bleeding. Unfortunately, he was not correct in that perception, nor did he have access to all of the photos or brain tissue slides. (Understand I have a lot of respect for Wecht as a pathologist.) The head blow having arrived first is considered fact since Kolar’s and Beckner’s reveal of this evidence.

It is similar with the issue of prior vaginal injuries. The disbelief that she suffered prior injuries relates to the circumstance that many who dispute this, and not just RST, have legitimate opinions regarding the variance of JB’s hymeneal and vaginal orifices and the reasons for vaginal infections and injuries. This isn’t the thread to discuss all of this, so I’ll only add that the number of qualified medical experts who were part of a panel for the BPD, have weighed in on this and the evidence was definitive. The prior vaginal injuries were verified in Beckner’s Reddit and also in Kolar’s FF. Here’s ST’s question to JR on LKL – ST: And why would pediatric medical experts that the Boulder Police Department brought into this case swear out, via affidavit, that JonBenet had been subjected to prior vaginal trauma?

Since the case will never be heard by a jury who would be the final finder of fact, it’s really not out of bounds to accept the BPD’s work with professionals who either viewed her body or saw photos obtained with special equipment as well as examined tissue slides. Because of the image of the brutality it’s painful to comprehend these injuries, but the BPD determined the head blow first and prior vaginal trauma as facts of this case.

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

Actually, a judge is not the finder of fact. The jury is.

I’ve hesitated to post a follow-up comment since I respect that you’ve read a lot about this and can really understand why you question they are facts vs. opinions. But while I appreciate that you are questioning that they are facts, in this particular case I believe there has been so much speculated, published and posted in forums, that the reality has become foggy with misinformation. I’ll briefly share why I don’t think Kanzz erred in calling these established facts.

To your questioning of whether the asphyxiation came first or the head blow occurred simultaneously with the asphyxiation, I’m not sure who the prominent experts you are mentioning are. So I’ll condense what has been revealed in the last few years. Chief Beckner and Chief Kolar reference the evidence contained in a report by Dr. Lucy Rorke-Adams. We can’t know if another expert would agree with her report because no other TBI pathologist has read it. But Dr. Rorke-Adams was the only expert with a forensic TBI background and a specialty in pediatric pathology to testify to the Grand Jury. A summary of her analysis has been provided by both Kolar and Beckner, and she documented the head blow came first with as much as 45 minutes to 2 hours between the two injuries. Even experts who wondered if the timing between the injuries wasn’t closer together did not disagree that the head blow came first. TMK, there was only one pathologist to differ on which came first, and that was Wecht. His conclusion was based on a perception that there was only a small amount of bleeding. Unfortunately, he was not correct in that perception, nor did he have access to all of the photos or brain tissue slides. (Understand I have a lot of respect for Wecht as a pathologist.) The head blow having arrived first is considered fact since Kolar’s and Beckner’s reveal of this evidence.

It is similar with the issue of prior vaginal injuries. The disbelief that she suffered prior injuries relates to the circumstance that many who dispute this, and not just RST, have legitimate opinions regarding the variance of JB’s hymeneal and vaginal orifices and the reasons for vaginal infections and injuries. This isn’t the thread to discuss all of this, so I’ll only add that the number of qualified medical experts who were part of a panel for the BPD, have weighed in on this and the evidence was definitive. The prior vaginal injuries were verified in Beckner’s Reddit and also in Kolar’s FF. Here’s ST’s question to JR on LKL – ST: And why would pediatric medical experts that the Boulder Police Department brought into this case swear out, via affidavit, that JonBenet had been subjected to prior vaginal trauma?

Since the case will never be heard by a jury who would be the final finder of fact, it’s really not out of bounds to accept the BPD’s work with professionals who either viewed her body or saw photos obtained with special equipment as well as examined tissue slides. Because of the image of the brutality it’s painful to comprehend these injuries, but the BPD determined the head blow first and prior vaginal trauma as facts of this case.

Thanks for your thoughtful analysis and taking the time to express it. I am aware that most of the members of this site share your beliefs.

It is obvious from the autopsy report that the head blow occurred before complete asphyxiation. My statement was that it is very possible the head blow was inflicted after the garrote was attached but prior to death. I am sure you see the distinction.

Clearly the evidence shows prior vaginal injuries. You unfortunately overlooked the word sexual in my other point.

And I certainly agree that a jury is the finder of facts during the trial phase of a jury trial. I assume that's what you meant to imply.

 

[MsFox]

I am not sure how this all works. I came across some writings and I am floored by some of the similarities. What do you think?

 

[Userid]

Whose writing is this?

 

[MsFox]

What do you think? Of course I'm giving it away until I get some feedback.

 

[MsFox]

I'm going to be sending samples to the few handwritting experts that personally worked on the case. I've been on the most part an IDI...until the Burke interview. Technically now I'm a BDI. Until I saw this. So I'm second guessing myself seriously.

 

[Userid]

I know who you think it is now. I guess I won't spoil it, since you want others to respond. The sloppiness is somewhat similar, but I don't see an exact match between this and the ransom note; then again, I'm certainly no expert. The capital "I"s and the lowercase "a"s are nothing alike, to cite just two examples.

 

[BBB167893]

John? Is that who wrote this, MsFox?

 

[MsFox]

Sorry

 

[Userid]

Ms. Fox, nice thumbnail. I applaud your research. Respectfully, I don't really see the similarities. I realize the JBR ransom note writer is trying to mask his/her writing, but the natural writing style still comes out in the note, since it's so long and the writing becomes more fluid. It's extremely difficult to mask one's writing style.

In those examples, the a's are different, the dots on the i's are different, the t's are crossed different (higher compared to lower). Like I said, I'm no expert, that's just my opinion.

 

[MsFox]

Yeah dumb idea probably anyway. Oh well!

 

[Userid]

^ No, it was a good idea. Don't sell yourself short!

 

[Userid]

John? Is that who wrote this, MsFox?

The writing is from one of the Columbine High School murderers.

 

[DeDee]

That would be my interpretation based on the order of items listed in the inventory. I think the wording in the Daily Camera articles is misleading -- implying the two were found together along with other items recovered in the WC.
http://www.acandyrose.com/12261996warrant09.gif

There are other things in the article that might be questionable. One thing is that it says (pertinent to recent discussions), "Christmas day was warm and sunny for the most part, and JonBenét and her brother each received new bicycles that their mother picked out from University Bicycles downtown." Ok. :thinking:

Yes, I'd put that firmly in the fiction pile.

http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/12/26-4.html

Not so fast, Tortoise. BR stated he received a bicycle for Christmas in 1996 during his Dr Phil coming out party. I am glad to see a linked source for the bike.

 

[silverwolf109]

I don't know where else to put this, because it deals with the fact and fiction, so please forgive any wrong placement. I have been re-reading the book "Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey" and in the early pages there are two things mentioned that never been mentioned again as far as I know. One was a statement from a neighbor saying that he or she heard a scream coming from the Ramsey home sometime between midnight and 1 am. Another neighbor said something about a moving light near the kitchen area that he had never seen before that night. I have never heard another mention of either thing...has anyone else?

 

[archieil]

I don't know where else to put this, because it deals with the fact and fiction, so please forgive any wrong placement. I have been re-reading the book "Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey" and in the early pages there are two things mentioned that never been mentioned again as far as I know. One was a statement from a neighbor saying that he or she heard a scream coming from the Ramsey home sometime between midnight and 1 am. Another neighbor said something about a moving light near the kitchen area that he had never seen before that night. I have never heard another mention of either thing...has anyone else?

Encyclopedia does have this report in neighbor reports.
There is a Daily Camera article about this.

I am working at the moment to try and gather better information about this.

Report says:
Melody Stanton heard scream/pain and her husband Luther heard metal on concrete.
Because of this metal on concrete and my reasoning regarding possible source of the scream I have an idea it was a little more complicated but they kept part of the information to themselves because they do not want to be bothered with this crime.

It is a "fiction" but I think it was more like this:
she heard JonP calling Burke from inside of winecellar (or some other closed place in the basement),
after a while, she heard Burke calling JonP out of the house (opened the door, called her and goes back to the house soon after)

Then she wakes her husband and she heard the pain of JonP/her husband was not sure.
Then he heard metal on concrete.

I have sent a letter to Daily Camera regarding this report but I doubt they will answer me ;-).

My idea changes:
the loudness of the pain scream (even if Patsy heard sth it could be nothing more than "Burke!!!", "Jonbenet!!!" in her dream)

I think the Stantons could check exact time of the event.
I am not sure if Luther is still alive. Have no report back that he was talked and gave some additional information regarding time.

 

[Ambitioned]

I don't know where else to put this, because it deals with the fact and fiction, so please forgive any wrong placement. I have been re-reading the book "Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey" and in the early pages there are two things mentioned that never been mentioned again as far as I know. One was a statement from a neighbor saying that he or she heard a scream coming from the Ramsey home sometime between midnight and 1 am. Another neighbor said something about a moving light near the kitchen area that he had never seen before that night. I have never heard another mention of either thing...has anyone else?

Yep. MS heard it but then changed her mind. I think someone got to her.

It was posted here how PR slipped and said she'll never forget the scream.

The bottom of this page mentions the dogs not barking. That's why I think there's no intruder. It's all inside. :moo:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682525/What Neighbors Reported

[h=3]Piercing scream[/h]

Melody Stanton, one of the Ramsey's neighbors (living less than 100 feet away), awoke abruptly from a deep sleep - the prior stillness of the Boulder night has been pierced by the harrowing scream of a child (for her brother Burke, now 12, to save her from being killed, experts say.

When a child is attacked by a parent, she has to turn to an ally she can trust. And we know JonBenét was close to Burke and trusted him. Patsy has told police that JonBenét had a habit of going into her brother's room during the night, but according to the book Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Burke admitted that he pretended to be asleep that morning about the time his mother called 911).


She assumed it was somewhere between midnight and 2:00 a.m., but didn't look at the alarm clock. The scream lasted three to five seconds (it was a little girl screaming," recalls Stanton, 52. It was the longest, most horrible scream I have ever heard in my entire life. It sent shivers down my spine. I could tell the sound was coming from the Ramsey house and I knew instantly it had to be their little girl, JonBenét". The next morning, while police still thought the 6-year-old beauty queen had been kidnapped, Stanton told them about the heart-rending cry that rang through the Ramsey house and stopped as abruptly as it started.

http://someoneisgettingawaywithmurd.../stanton-one-of-ramseys-neighbors-living.html