Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. #2

[Theforeigner]

Thinking about JB and SG leaving his house by car that night for 15 minutes and not leaving the gated community, where could they have gone? Then later that night SG runs out of JB's house in fear of her life and runs to the first lighted house (GC's) and then runs and hides under his boat before taking a right and running down Anchor Way at least as far as BB's house. If she wanted to get to the road lights of Ocean Parkway as the police believe, she would have made a left from GC's boat and run through the gate and out of Oak Beach to Ocean Parkway. GC's house is the first house in the community and IMO the lights of Ocean Parkway would have been visable and close to where SG was at the time.
What made her take a right and run down Anchor Way? Maybe she was trying to retrace the route JB and she took earlier that night. Wherever they went I believe SG, in her mind at that time, thought it might be a safe haven for her. All we know is that BB's house was the last place SG was seen alive and IMO is "on the way" to wherever JB took SG earlier. Any thoughts? That is the only reason I could think of SG not running out of Oak Beach towards the lights of Ocean Parkway as the police believe she was trying to do.

maybe...:

Went to the gate where, according to some reports, MP was parked while SG was at JB's house. Maybe they went there to pick up drugs from Pak?

Went to the gate to pick up the "drifter" or some other person who was supposed to join the "party"

What I don´t understand is, WHY didn't anyone, LE and/or Pak, Diaz or JB ever tell what that 15 minute trip was about!?
WHY has that been kept such a secret!?


Does anyone remember who, in the first place, revealed that the 15 minutes trip occured?

 

[NoviceSleuth]

I thought that Pak was parked in JB driveway that night - playing games on his cell and sleeping while SG was inside. Also I believe it was Pak who stated that SG and JB went out in his car and returned 15 minutes later?

 

[scandi]

I spent time with a friend of mine today who majored and worked as an Anthropologist. When I told her that Shannan was missing her hyoid bone upon discovery of her remains and LE declared the death inconclusive she was amazed. She responded instinctually suggesting that the killer may have taken as a souvenir? I countered saying that the killer removed the hyoid bone to cover up the crime so the outcome would be "inconclusive" Howeve, this is coming from someone completely opposite of me-a "facts person". I realize that the facts solve crimes but instincts can lead LE in the right direction to start digging for the facts. Why does it seem like the horse is being led to water and refusing to drink, so to speak?

Hi Maddalenasgirl, You said "Shannan was missing her hyoid bone upon discovery of her remains". I've never heard that - maybe missed it. But how could that be true if LE says her death was an accident? Do you have a link?

 

[Just K]

Google search re: the 15 minute drive:

Gilbert vanishing reaches one-year mark
http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/gilbert-vanishing-reaches-one-year-mark-1.2849214

Apr 30, 2011 – "Shannan Gilbert stood on a clamorous street in midtown Manhattan, ... Gilbert and Brewer left the house in his vehicle for about 15 minutes but ..."

Great details below:
"Meeting with 'lonely guy'

At 12:20 a.m., she called Pak.

He said she had finished with the Manhattan call, and needed to be picked up. According to Pak, another client soon called from Long Island. Joseph Brewer, whose house she was headed to early that morning, was in his words a "lonely guy" at the time.

An unemployed financial adviser, Brewer told Newsday last December that he had separated from his wife and lived alone in a two-story woodframe house on Fairway Drive in the beachfront community of Oak Beach, about 15 miles east of Jones Beach along Ocean Parkway.

Brewer said at the time that he had turned to Craigslist for company -- not a hooker. Contacted by Newsday last week, he declined to discuss the case further, saying police had advised him not to speak to the press.

Pak said he and Gilbert arrived in Oak Beach about 2 a.m. Gilbert went inside Brewer's house while Pak played poker on his cellphone in the SUV.

Shortly after she arrived, Gilbert and Brewer left the house in his vehicle for about 15 minutes but did not leave Oak Beach, sources familiar with the probe said.

In December, Brewer declined to elaborate on his time with Gilbert, except to say he didn't have sexual contact with her. He said he told her to leave after she demanded money. "Then she started getting all weird," Brewer said.

She went to the bathroom for some time and emerged acting erratically. "She was starting to freak out," he said.

Brewer went outside to Pak, asking for help in getting her to leave..."

 

[Seajay]

Google search re: the 15 minute drive:

Gilbert vanishing reaches one-year mark
http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/gilbert-vanishing-reaches-one-year-mark-1.2849214

Apr 30, 2011 – "Shannan Gilbert stood on a clamorous street in midtown Manhattan, ... Gilbert and Brewer left the house in his vehicle for about 15 minutes but ..."

Great details below:
"Meeting with 'lonely guy'

At 12:20 a.m., she called Pak.

He said she had finished with the Manhattan call, and needed to be picked up. According to Pak, another client soon called from Long Island. Joseph Brewer, whose house she was headed to early that morning, was in his words a "lonely guy" at the time.

An unemployed financial adviser, Brewer told Newsday last December that he had separated from his wife and lived alone in a two-story woodframe house on Fairway Drive in the beachfront community of Oak Beach, about 15 miles east of Jones Beach along Ocean Parkway.

Brewer said at the time that he had turned to Craigslist for company -- not a hooker. Contacted by Newsday last week, he declined to discuss the case further, saying police had advised him not to speak to the press.

Pak said he and Gilbert arrived in Oak Beach about 2 a.m. Gilbert went inside Brewer's house while Pak played poker on his cellphone in the SUV.

Shortly after she arrived, Gilbert and Brewer left the house in his vehicle for about 15 minutes but did not leave Oak Beach, sources familiar with the probe said.

In December, Brewer declined to elaborate on his time with Gilbert, except to say he didn't have sexual contact with her. He said he told her to leave after she demanded money. "Then she started getting all weird," Brewer said.

She went to the bathroom for some time and emerged acting erratically. "She was starting to freak out," he said.

Brewer went outside to Pak, asking for help in getting her to leave..."

Well, that clears up one thing I wondered about. With only being gone 15 minutes I didn't think they got outside of the Oak Beach community. So, who did they go see???? And for what??? Did they go somewhere to get drugs?? And is that why Shannan came out of the bathroom then started getting all weird??? So she was there for over 2 hours and hadn't asked for money yet, since by Brewers version, they didn't have sexual contact. What did he think, she was going to take adrive out his way at 2 am to keep him company for free??????

 

[truthspider]

maybe...:

Went to the gate where, according to some reports, MP was parked while SG was at JB's house. Maybe they went there to pick up drugs from Pak?

Went to the gate to pick up the "drifter" or some other person who was supposed to join the "party"

What I don´t understand is, WHY didn't anyone, LE and/or Pak, Diaz or JB ever tell what that 15 minute trip was about!?
WHY has that been kept such a secret!?


Does anyone remember who, in the first place, revealed that the 15 minutes trip occured?

Pak was parked in front of the house not the gate, he was also (one of) the source who said they took a 15 minute trip...

 

[Just K]

In the initial news coverage...don't know if it was Pak, himself or just mis-reporting, but it was insinuated that Pak was waiting outside the gate, fell asleep, played on-line poker, and Brewer came out to get him.

Later, all that morphed to Pak was sitting in his SUV just outside of Brewer's driveway.

 

[PreciousDust]

Later, all that morphed to Pak was sitting in his SUV just outside of Brewer's driveway.

Pak waiting outside the gate makes no sense at all. First, a car sitting outside the gate for three hours would look suspicious, and any passing cop would look into it - JB and MP would both want to be as inconspicuous as possible. Also, MP observes JB exiting his house and comes over to the SUV to get MP to convince SG to leave; hard to believe that JB would walk down to the gate to do that, or that MP could observe JB leaving his house from outside the gate. MPs in the driveway, imo.

So MP says there was a 15 minute trip. Assuming he'd have no reason to lie about that (and truthspider says there's other sources for it, though I don't know who - who else, besides JB or MP or the "drifter", would have observed it? I probably just need to be filled in on facts, as usual), JB and SG had to stay within the Oak Beach gates; there's no place worth getting to in 7 or 8 minutes from Oak Beach. What do you think a john and a hooker will be going out for at 2 am? Here's two scenarios, which sounds more likely?
a) "Ah, you like my contemporary watercolors, SG? Yes, the use of light is remarkable, isn't it, particularly in that piece above the divan there? A friend of mine, just down the road, has a far better collection than I, and he's always awake at this time of morning - let's give him a visit!"
or
b) "Yeah, this is all the coke I've got. What? Yeah, a friend of mine down the street has some, maybe I can wake him up - let's give him a visit!"

With b) as the obvious choice, circumstances lend themselves to both the time-lag before SG complains about not getting paid (nobody's talking about business or sex while they're sitting around getting high), and also to the nature of the argument about money itself, i.e. who's paying for that coke, are we splitting the cost, does that 'count' towards the fee, etc.

 

[woodstick]

In the initial news coverage...don't know if it was Pak, himself or just mis-reporting, but it was insinuated that Pak was waiting outside the gate, fell asleep, played on-line poker, and Brewer came out to get him.

Later, all that morphed to Pak was sitting in his SUV just outside of Brewer's driveway.

IF "Pak was waiting outside the gate" at 2-3 am someone must open this gate and let him in at some point. GC's house is next one to the gate. If Pak was really by the gate, probably GC could see his SUV. GC said that first time he saw Pak's SUV it moved eastbound along Fairway at the time SG was in his house (5 am).
15 min round trip somewhere inside OB community could bring you as close as Larboard ;-) and as far as Hawser depending on stops.. The purpose of this trip most likely was to get drugs from OB's resident, IMO.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Okay, I took a week off. Now I see some interesting posts, for example about this 15 minute trip, I see the regurgitating of old subjects, for example the "stolen" hyoid bone and of course, openly turning biased suspicions into facts.

So, where to start? Hyoid bone? Maddalenasgirl: The hyoid bone is one of the rare bones, not directly connected to other bones. There are two more, but they are inside the head and therefore often fall inside the skull when decomposition progresses. However, the hyoid bone lies open and therefore is often missing on unwrapped skeletal remains. So it's nothing unusual in fact. But those bones are not "stolen" to cover up something, they are just carried away by little animals.
Put the thing for a moment under a logic test: There is a dead body before decomposition. Means, there is tissue around and the hyoid bone is still connected by tendons. No way, someone would get it out without cutting and that is not that easy, especially without leaving tool marks. Tool marks from a removal would be pretty obvious, and nobody, also not SCPD would label the case an accident anymore. Thus, the time, when the hyoid bone disappeared, had to be AFTER decomposition progressed far enough, means, when the tendon connections were gone. So unless, you want to relive the theory, the killer kept SG in his basement and waited for her decomposition, the idea of stealing said bone right after death to "cover-up" a murder is off the table.

Next one? Turning biased guesses into facts: Adler, I beg you, don't write "evidence, SG didn't slip out of her skinny jeans" in a list of facts. It doesn't make it look as if such evidence exists, which it doesn't. I mean, the only thing, we actually know is, she slipped earlier on her own INTO that jeans. So she had also the ability to slip out herself, which is by the way a lot easier than to get a girl out of them if she doesn't want.
On a side note: Keep in mind, paradoxical undressing occurs even without additional drug influence in about 1/3 to 1/2 of all hypothermia cases. Add drugs and you end up ignoring the statistically more likely solution. So in the end, all we know (temperature mostly, the area wet, even not entirely flooded), points rather out, she probably did slip out of her clothes herself.

The 15 minute gap? I think, 15 minutes can bring one pretty far away from Oak Beach, but that would be a mathematical misconception because they had also to come back in that time and deal with what- or whomever they had to deal. Which means, the actual distance can't be more than 7 driving minutes and probably less, because they had to do whatever business brought them on this little excursion. So we talk rather like 5 minutes driving or less. And still, we don't talk about farther away than just the next two houses around, because in that case, it would have been easier to just walk over there, especially when we assume, this was about to get more drugs. Cars in the night usually drag more attention than just two persons walking around. So technically, we are back to mathematics, in this case geometry. Because we search for some place, which is farther away than maybe 5 minutes walking (inner radius) and maximal 7 minutes driving away (outer radius) without leaving Oak Beach. As far as I see it, there is no way to leave Oak Beach with a car without passing that gate, but maybe someone with better eyes can have a look at that?

 

[PreciousDust]

As far as I see it, there is no way to leave Oak Beach with a car without passing that gate, but maybe someone with better eyes can have a look at that?

There's no place that anyone can want to go outside the gates at 2 am that you can get to within 7 minutes. If they were going five blocks away within OB to cop drugs, they'd certainly take a car, not walk.

 

[PreciousDust]

Photo cannibalized from someone else's post on an earlier thread. If MP was outside the gate, he wouldn't have been able to see anything happening at JBs house.

 

[woodstick]

Photo cannibalized from someone else's post on an earlier thread. If MP was outside the gate, he wouldn't have been able to see anything happening at JBs house.

JB house is right across the street of marked one. It doesn't have a direct acces to the water.

 

[PreciousDust]

I'm curious about the "integrity" of the gate. Looking at the OB community on Google maps, I don't see another rounded gate-like area leading into the community, but I think it's sort of odd that if there's only one gate it would be up in the corner there (though, in fact, most travelers to OB would be arriving that way, having come off the Causeway). I do see that there's what appears to be a public beach with a large-ish parking lot right in the middle of the community; presumably there's gates on the beach entrances at night, but that doesn't stop anyone who wants to from wandering around the neighborhood in the daytime after they get into the beach area. Anyone here know how it works?

 

[PreciousDust]

There's no place that anyone can want to go outside the gates at 2 am that you can get to within 7 minutes.

Just for the heck of it, here's the nearest CVS to JBs house; exactly 10 miles away, with Google maps figuring 18 minutes each way:

https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=...ojB2kSHVroQ&oq=204+great+east&t=h&mra=ls&z=13

 

[Peter Brendt]

There's no place that anyone can want to go outside the gates at 2 am that you can get to within 7 minutes. If they were going five blocks away within OB to cop drugs, they'd certainly take a car, not walk.

Which is exactly the point. So whoever they visited, it was more than two block away and less than five and it was inside Oak Beach.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Just for the heck of it, here's the nearest CVS to JBs house; exactly 10 miles away, with Google maps figuring 18 minutes each way:

https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=...ojB2kSHVroQ&oq=204+great+east&t=h&mra=ls&z=13

18 minutes one way -> as in TOO FAR! Nice job!

 

[mcme]

The large parking lot in the center of Oak Beach, right at the entrance from the parkway, is the parking lot of the former Oak Beach Inn, a night club that has since been bought and torn down by the town of Babylon and turned into a public park. The OIBA, the gated side of Oak Beach, is to the east. The rest of Oak Beach, to the west, has no gate. Anyone who wants to could walk or ride a bike into the OIBA right past the gate.

 

[PreciousDust]

18 minutes one way -> as in TOO FAR! Nice job!

Thanks; to make the CVS story even dicier, that West Babylon location closes at 10 PM - as does every other CVS in the area. Or, at least, they currently all close at 10 PM.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Thanks; to make the CVS story even dicier, that West Babylon location closes at 10 PM - as does every other CVS in the area. Or, at least, they currently all close at 10 PM.

So, lets assume, they visited the resident drug dealer. And this one is someone living too far to just walk over from Brewer's house but near enough to reach him in about 5 minutes or less with the car. That would exclude CPH because he was living near enough for a walk? Or just far enough to use the car?
The interesting thing is, if the resident drug vendor can be found and testifies, JB bought, maybe there is a chance to pin him for negligent manslaughter or something. That would be at least something. But then, Brewer's house in foreclosure and all, SG had maybe the bigger income? Or is the foreclosure thing in the meantime dismissed?