Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. What do you think?

[Just K]

I'm not sure the evidence is thin so much as it is that the information, made available to the public, is thin.

No matter which is the case, with the information that has been released, we don't know JACK. Hopefully, someone in a position of power knows the answers to the forensic evidence found and any anthropological data found on her remains. I, for one, would love to know if the bones and the ground vegetation indicate that she laid there for 18 months...through a couple 2011 blizzards and Hurricane Irene.

 

[truthspider]

Nobody was ever suggesting that she committed suicide. If you go back and read every post that's what I wrote.

there is more evidence pointing towards suicide than any other cause of death.

-SS

You suggested it ss. Do you have a hard time separating reality from fantasy SS?



saying something, then later saying you never said that and trying to rewrite what you said....

 

[Seaslug44]

-SS

You suggested it ss. Do you have a hard time separating reality from fantasy SS?



saying something, then later saying you never said that and trying to rewrite what you said....

No I stated the OPPOSITE. I do not understant why you are being a trouble maker and always being so confrontational. I was engaged in a high-level meaningful & logical conversation. No need to stretch the truth and ignore what I wrote. But just in case you missed it the first times, here it is again;

from post #1321;

This isn't my theory on what happened... I am just simply pointing out that out of the five legal definitions of causes of death (as pointed out by BKS), we cannot make the assumption that suicide is off the table just like we cannot take "Accident" or "Homicide" off the table.

from post #1323;

Like I said, I am not saying that she committed suicide. Just pointing out that you cannot rule it out because there is more evidence pointing towards suicide than any other cause of death.

 

[Just K]

Possible Scenarios and COD

If her leg, arm, hip, or skull bones were not broken. Or
If the ground and if the nearby vegetation and vegetation on, around or through the bones indicates that she laid there for 18 months:
Accident, Natural, Murder, or (highly unlikely) Suicide.
Thus COD could be:
OD
Cardiac Arrest
Stroke
(a fall, leading to a) head blow...causing unconsciousness and subsequent death

or the two LE Proposed Theories
Hypothermia
Drowning
(IMO, highly unlikely given the environment conditions/seasonal climate and the distance between SG's belongings and her remains)

If her bones were broken: COD could be Accident, Manslaughter or Murder
Vehicular impact
Fall
or
Beaten/brutalized

If the ground under and around her did not show signs of human decomposition and vegetation not growing under the remains, at the same rate as the vegetation near the remains:

Murder and the body was placed there at a later time.

Crime Scene Forensics and Forensic Anthropology could eliminate many of the above COD scenarios.

 

[Peter Brendt]

For anyone who just joined this conversation late and has something to say about it without reading the details- nobody is saying that SG committed suicide. What I was simply pointing out that the evidence in her case that many people claim points towards homicide is so weak that there is actually more evidence pointing towards the likelyhood of suicide. The evidence is also so scarce that we can't RULE OUT suicide either.

That's how weak this case is. That was the point. Nobody was ever suggesting that she committed suicide. If you go back and read every post that's what I wrote.

Sorry for engaging in a high-level discussion of logics and probability to look at the many different layers of this case (I thought that is what we are supposed to do around here).

I warned you, when you go logic, you will draw ire. But I agree, the evidence for any theory is weak. What we do here is either guessing on behavioral patterns or calling it murder because we want to believe it's murder. And everyone can pick now, in which category he likes to see his own theory.

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

Seriously?????

This is coming from someone who has publically convicted an innocent man and used slander & libel to attempt to convince others that this person is guilty?

Sorry, YOU are the only member here with a motive.

Relax, both of you. Seaslug made a little excursion in logic, Truthspider in paranoia. Nobody can claim, this wasn't Seaslugs first excursion into an almost mathematical logic and neither it was Truthspider's first attack of paranoia (remember the first radio show). So, just relax please.

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

I'm not sure the evidence is thin so much as it is that the information, made available to the public, is thin.

No matter which is the case, with the information that has been released, we don't know JACK. Hopefully, someone in a position of power knows the answers to the forensic evidence found and any anthropological data found on her remains. I, for one, would love to know if the bones and the ground vegetation indicate that she laid there for 18 months...through a couple 2011 blizzards and Hurricane Irene.

We all would like more information, especially the complete ME report. However, since years, the policy in SK cases has gone to secrecy because LE, especially the FBI-advisers in such cases, follow a formalized approach. Nothing against a formalized approach, but if the form is already full of failure, it didn't work out. Which is the reason, why the career times of SKs tripled over the last twenty years, with most of this growth in the last ten years. So, in my opinion, this secrecy is just the usual stupidity combined with the deep rooted wish of DAs and ADAs all over the nation to keep a lid on the mistakes during the investigation. It's not malicious intend, just usage-disability.

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

Possible Scenarios and COD

If her leg, arm, hip, or skull bones were not broken. Or
If the ground and if the nearby vegetation and vegetation on, around or through the bones indicates that she laid there for 18 months:
Accident, Natural, Murder, or (highly unlikely) Suicide.
Thus COD could be:
OD
Cardiac Arrest
Stroke
(a fall, leading to a) head blow...causing unconsciousness and subsequent death

or the two LE Proposed Theories
Hypothermia
Drowning
(IMO, highly unlikely given the environment conditions/seasonal climate and the distance between SG's belongings and her remains)

If her bones were broken: COD could be Accident, Manslaughter or Murder
Vehicular impact
Fall
or
Beaten/brutalized

If the ground under and around her did not show signs of human decomposition and vegetation not growing under the remains, at the same rate as the vegetation near the remains:

Murder and the body was placed there at a later time.

Crime Scene Forensics and Forensic Anthropology could eliminate many of the above COD scenarios.

Let me add one possible COD, I forgot yet. Some drugs, especially ecstasy-derivates can also mess up the bodies temperature regulation via the way of dehydration. Typical symptoms include also undressing and throwing the clothes away. The final COD is often extensive brain damage or cardiac arrest due to an out of control vegetative nerve system. Funny thing, the same types of drugs are also likely to cause paranoid episodes in patients with preconditions.

Peter

 

[truthspider]

Seriously?????

This is coming from someone who has publically convicted an innocent man and used slander & libel to attempt to convince others that this person is guilty?

Sorry, YOU are the only member here with a motive.

I do have a motive, it is called getting to the truth.

I'm glad I am not the only one who seems to think that you have a defensive agenda. I will let your statements about suicide speak for themselves.

 

[Seaslug44]

I warned you, when you go logic, you will draw ire. But I agree, the evidence for any theory is weak. What we do here is either guessing on behavioral patterns or calling it murder because we want to believe it's murder. And everyone can pick now, in which category he likes to see his own theory.

Peter

EXACTLY!

I never said that she committed suicide. I was merely pointing out the weakness in the homicide argument based upon logic and mathematical possibility. You were right though- when I went to logic, I did draw ire. This was a good exercise in human tolerance for the inability to prove the expected. In this case, society expected SG's remains to confirm the assumption that she was murdered and that her death was related to the victims who were found miles down the road. As humans we rely on common sense and judgement to draw our conclusions so we see the possibilty of SG being a prostitute along with the GB4 & JT to be too much for us to accept as being a huge coincidence. This intolerance (along with society's need for answers) is what is driving this ire.

 

[Peter Brendt]

EXACTLY!

I never said that she committed suicide. I was merely pointing out the weakness in the homicide argument based upon logic and mathematical possibility. You were right though- when I went to logic, I did draw ire. This was a good exercise in human tolerance for the inability to prove the expected. In this case, society expected SG's remains to confirm the assumption that she was murdered and that her death was related to the victims who were found miles down the road. As humans we rely on common sense and judgement to draw our conclusions so we see the possibilty of SG being a prostitute along with the GB4 & JT to be too much for us to accept as being a huge coincidence. This intolerance (along with society's need for answers) is what is driving this ire.

Well, looking a little closer at it, not that much of a difference. Right behind the horizon is NYC with about 12 million people. Plus the LI area around, which isn't exactly thin populated. So statistically, there are around three or four SKs around at all times plus the occasional visit of a long haul mobile SK. That we don't see them means only, nobody stumbled over the bodies yet or tries in denial of realities to count them all on one.
So, if anybody is stupid enough to buy a house in one of only two areas usable as dump zone in such an area, and uses this house for some drug fueled parties with prostitutes, it is, statistically spoken, almost inevitable that at some point someone will stumble over bodies in the vicinity. That's like seeing another person with ice cream in the only ice cream parlor in a small town.

Peter

 

[Seaslug44]

Let me add one possible COD, I forgot yet. Some drugs, especially ecstasy-derivates can also mess up the bodies temperature regulation via the way of dehydration. Typical symptoms include also undressing and throwing the clothes away. The final COD is often extensive brain damage or cardiac arrest due to an out of control vegetative nerve system. Funny thing, the same types of drugs are also likely to cause paranoid episodes in patients with preconditions.

Peter

Good point. I am sure that one of the drugs you are referring to is bath salts. It's been all over the news after some recent attacks. The medical experts and law enforcement have been pointing out how they cause paranoid episodes that often include undressing and throwing clothing away.

 

[hawkshaw]

Why are we complicating the SG death with far fetched theories as to how she died other than being a victim of a murder?

 

[hawkshaw]

Things we know with some reasonable certainty:
1. She was a prostitute out seeing a client.
2. There came a time she was on a phone screaming : they are going to kill me.
3. Her body was found where 4 known prostitutes, probably 10 were found and they were murdered.
4. There is no known cause of death. If there is they aren't telling us. I go with the latter.
5. I know the former police commissioner is an IDIOT. He said it was an accident.

I am going to go with MURDER until otherwise proven wrong.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Why are we complicating the SG death with far fetched theories as to how she died other than being a victim of a murder?

Because she maybe wasn't the victim of a murder?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Things we know with some reasonable certainty:
1. She was a prostitute out seeing a client.
2. There came a time she was on a phone screaming : they are going to kill me.
3. Her body was found where 4 known prostitutes, probably 10 were found and they were murdered.
4. There is no known cause of death. If there is they aren't telling us. I go with the latter.
5. I know the former police commissioner is an IDIOT. He said it was an accident.

I am going to go with MURDER until otherwise proven wrong.

1.) She was yelling into that phone "They're going to kill me" for 23 minutes while NOBODY tried to kill her.

2.) She had a history of drug porblems

3.) She had a history of bi-polar disorder

4.) She was seen alive but fleeing after that phone call

5.) The COD is undetermined, it isn't that the ME ruled it homicide

Your personal estimation of Dormer being an idiot, while I agree with it, isn't evidence. But looking at the points above, this doesn't add up for a good murder theory. It lacks motive, means and, since she was seen on the run, opportunity. More, it denies opportunity after the 911 call because she was obviously alive after. Sooo ... does that count as proving you wrong or not? Because we can continue this game of just claiming "it was murder" till all eternity.

 

[LINative13]

I think that if the ME was able to say that she killed herself or slipped and fell and hit her head on a rock (accidental)......the ME would have said it. I think SCPD would love to shut SG's case. If they had an oppurtunity to do so...it is my opinion that they would.

 

[truthspider]

Why are we complicating the SG death with far fetched theories as to how she died other than being a victim of a murder?

some want to be able to blame the victims for some reason.....

 

[hawkshaw]

1.) She was yelling into that phone "They're going to kill me" for 23 minutes while NOBODY tried to kill her.

2.) She had a history of drug porblems

3.) She had a history of bi-polar disorder

4.) She was seen alive but fleeing after that phone call

5.) The COD is undetermined, it isn't that the ME ruled it homicide

Your personal estimation of Dormer being an idiot, while I agree with it, isn't evidence. But looking at the points above, this doesn't add up for a good murder theory. It lacks motive, means and, since she was seen on the run, opportunity. More, it denies opportunity after the 911 call because she was obviously alive after. Sooo ... does that count as proving you wrong or not? Because we can continue this game of just claiming "it was murder" till all eternity.

OF COURSE I COULD BE WRONG, but the facts, IMHO, suggest otherwise. She is dead. She made a phone call that said she feared for her life. She was found near the bodies of 4 known prostitutes that were murdered.

The ME couldn't or wouldn't find a cause of death. Sorry, Peter,but I don't think most of the posters on this board would agree with you.

I am open to all suggestions.

Sure the cops would love to close the SG death. The question is : Why haven't they done so already? Because no reasonable person would believe it without convincing and definite evidence.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I think that if the ME was able to say that she killed herself or slipped and fell and hit her head on a rock (accidental)......the ME would have said it. I think SCPD would love to shut SG's case. If they had an oppurtunity to do so...it is my opinion that they would.

I think. if he could have proven any COD from the point of view of a pathologist, he would have said. But since we talk here about skeletal remains, a number of CODs can't be proven or excluded. Blunt force trauma with damaging the bone could be easily seen, not so a concussion, not so a stroke, not so drowning or cardiac arrest. All those CODs would cause a ME who later can only see the skeletal remains, to say, COD was undetermined. And btw, you realize, that the ME is not under the direct command of LE?

Peter