Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. What do you think?

[BKS]

Common sense tells us SG died of homicide, accident, or natural causes. There is absolutey no proof that SG was suicidal! None.

 

[Seaslug44]

Common sense tells us SG died of homicide, accident, or natural causes. There is absolutey no proof that SG was suicidal! None.

On the contrary, there is no proof that she wasn't suicidal but there are mounds of proof that she was at high risk for suicide and that she repeatedly put herself in harm's way. Her intentional reckless behavior, refusal to take her bi-polar medication, her extreme mood swings, excessive drug & alcohol use, her tendencies to act anxious as well as agitated... these are all warning signs & risk factors. As I mentioned in my previous post, people with bi-polar disorder are on the top of the high risk for suicide list along with people with depression. Drug abusers are 2nd on the list. The two combined can be a lethal combination for suicide. Add to that the high risk associated with those who have been in foster care along with the long list I just gave you and there is your evidence.

Like I said, I am not saying that she committed suicide. Just pointing out that you cannot rule it out because there is more evidence pointing towards suicide than any other cause of death.

 

[fred&edna]

On the contrary, there is no proof that she wasn't suicidal but there are mounds of proof that she was at high risk for suicide and that she repeatedly put herself in harm's way. Her intentional reckless behavior, refusal to take her bi-polar medication, her extreme mood swings, excessive drug & alcohol use, her tendencies to act anxious as well as agitated... these are all warning signs & risk factors. As I mentioned in my previous post, people with bi-polar disorder are on the top of the high risk for suicide list along with people with depression. Drug abusers are 2nd on the list. The two combined can be a lethal combination for suicide. Add to that the high risk associated with those who have been in foster care along with the long list I just gave you and there is your evidence.

Like I said, I am not saying that she committed suicide. Just pointing out that you cannot rule it out because there is more evidence pointing towards suicide than any other cause of death.

RE: BBM
How many suicide cases involve a 911 call with cries of "they are trying to kill me"? The call negates the bipolar, drug use, foster child mix... imo

Seriously, suicide?! No way!

 

[fred&edna]

I'm likely posting this on the wrong thread (sorry, correct me!) and I cannot find the link confirming JB contacted MP to set up the "date" (although I'm sure this was confirmed). I didn't think SG used MP's phone # on her bp/craigslist ads, so how did JB have MP's phone number... how were those two people connected??

 

[Peter Brendt]

On the contrary, there is no proof that she wasn't suicidal but there are mounds of proof that she was at high risk for suicide and that she repeatedly put herself in harm's way. Her intentional reckless behavior, refusal to take her bi-polar medication, her extreme mood swings, excessive drug & alcohol use, her tendencies to act anxious as well as agitated... these are all warning signs & risk factors. As I mentioned in my previous post, people with bi-polar disorder are on the top of the high risk for suicide list along with people with depression. Drug abusers are 2nd on the list. The two combined can be a lethal combination for suicide. Add to that the high risk associated with those who have been in foster care along with the long list I just gave you and there is your evidence.

Like I said, I am not saying that she committed suicide. Just pointing out that you cannot rule it out because there is more evidence pointing towards suicide than any other cause of death.

I get your logical point. In fact, there is no evidence for anything yet, which without further information, makes all possibilities the same likely - in a mathematical sense. And I guess, that's what you try to say. However, since that's the last thing, people want to believe (and the word math gives a lot of people goosebumps the bad way in the first place), I expect, you will be jumped on soon :floorlaugh:

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

RE: BBM
How many suicide cases involve a 911 call with cries of "they are trying to kill me"? The call negates the bipolar, drug use, foster child mix... imo

Seriously, suicide?! No way!

You would be surprised. But that's not the point. Can you prove, by hard evidence, it wasn't suicide? This is a logic exercise: You can't prove a thing, but you assume. It shows the problem. As long as the ME has no COD, we can only profile the behavior, which, depending on experience, knowledge of human behavior and personal believes and theories, will lead us to different results.

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

I agree that rational thinking makes the possibility of suicide unlikely. However, when it comes to the actions of chronic drug users or people with a history of mental illness, rational thinking is not applicable. In this case, we have a victim with a drug addiction along with a mental disorder that is known to be one of the leading factors that causes suicide (incidentally, right behind depression & bipolar disorder, substance abuse is the 2nd leading factor attributed to suicide). Time spent in foster care along with the inability to leave an abusive relationship are also on the list of risk factors.

With the ME stating that her cause of death cannot be determined, anything is possible. There is no proof that can rule out the possibilty that SG completely lost her mind that evening and decided to overdose on drugs. Before you knock this possibility you should be aware that there have been plenty of cases of bi-polar drug addicts committing suicide after experiencing extreme paranoia. It's fairly difficult for us to understand this possibility using rational thought & common sense. It also seems sureal to envision any theory where we are asked to accept that SG was not murdered given the discovery of all of the other victims found nearby.

I know this is probably asking too much of anyone to consider.

All I can say is that a suicidal rampage cannot be ruled out because there is not a shred of evidence that points away from it. There are actually more pieces to the puzzle that fit this possibility than any other. For instance, this would explain why she was running around the swampy bramble with no pants on (as well as why she left her purse, jacket and cell phone behind).

This isn't my theory on what happened (although now that I am thinking it through, it does seem more likely than the crazy one-legged doctor theory). I am just simply pointing out that out of the five legal definitions of causes of death (as pointed out by BKS), we cannot make the assumption that suicide is off the table just like we cannot take "Accident" or "Homicide" off the table.

On the same line of thinking, I have a question;

If a woman's low self-esteme or poor judgement placed her in an extremely dangerous & reckless situation and then she dies as a result of her lack of regard for her own safety (reckless self-endangerment), is that considered suicide or accidentally killing oneself?

Lets, discuss that, even it's not the real point, on a logical level:
Suicide involves intent and possibility. Killing oneself by doing something stupid counts generally rather as accident.
So what possibilities had SG that night? Her only way to commit suicide would have been to drown herself. And for that, the water wasn't deep enough.
The real point to exclude suicide wouldn't be the hard evidence but the lack of a technical possibility here.
However, drug induced paranoid behavior can for example in an acute situation raise blood pressure and heart frequency to exorbitant numbers. Add hypothermia to the mix and you get a number of possibilities for CODs which can't be proven on skeletal remains. Drowning, heart attack, even stroke.

Peter

 

[fred&edna]

You would be surprised. But that's not the point. Can you prove, by hard evidence, it wasn't suicide? This is a logic exercise: You can't prove a thing, but you assume. It shows the problem. As long as the ME has no COD, we can only profile the behavior, which, depending on experience, knowledge of human behavior and personal believes and theories, will lead us to different results.

Peter

:waitasec:

You can do all the exercising you'd like, PB... but, it makes me sweaty so I don't wanna' Yes, of course you are correct in that I made an assumption, but I used logic... it's what I call "logical" common sense. I know you have that teaching/lecture/professor background (which I respect) do we really need a flowchart, a pie chart, or an equation?

** I feel an assignment on Schrodinger's cat is gonna be next!

 

[Peter Brendt]

:waitasec:

You can do all the exercising you'd like, PB... but, it makes me sweaty so I don't wanna' Yes, of course you are correct in that I made an assumption, but I used logic... it's what I call "logical" common sense. I know you have that teaching/lecture/professor background (which I respect) do we really need a flowchart, a pie chart, or an equation?

** I feel an assignment on Schrodinger's cat is gonna be next!

The point is, Sealug demonstrated, that basically all those murder theories are without any evidence base by posing another unlikely idea against it. So, if you say, one is too thin, you have to say, the other one is too thin too because both have the same base of evidence. Makes one think ... at least I hope it does.
And btw, I trained IT professionals for a long time before I retired and went full-time writing, but I'm not teaching or instructing since years now.

Peter

 

[En Passant]

No Offense, it's total nonsense what you're shoveling.....ones actions explains the intent, the motive.....I can not even believe I read such nonsense.

Of course that can be ruled out.....OMG.....this is why this place is getting pretty wacky....

the Movie before hand can also set a stage to ones behavior, when dealing with a time frame.....The day before charting each hour...or even clumping a week long Chart.....From hour to hour can achieve setting a base line & one gets a real good Idea of SG state of being...stressors, relationship issues, need for money...I FEEL MP did more of the trolling because while they were at the show.....wasn't MP posting on a website & Craigs list.....They do earn there income from SG....

It's called charting behaviors to get a baseline on them....So you are all creating a shameful bunch of nonsense IMO....

I really read a lot of nonsense crap that is not used in the field....I just think it is like when a drug company conducts a research group using a controlled group insuring the outcome they wanted....

But charting behaviors are realistic, It actually gives a true baseline for each behavior. So you can focus on the whole picture of a client......

Really not complicated....I do not buy your personal opinion in regards to different theories....it means one is using personal opinions......

When you go by a structured criteria for charting behaviors......It's very different than what you people SEEM to BE Discussing....In psychology....it's about the Approach the Professional uses to determine why a behavior is caused.

Freud, BF Skinner, Jung....than Cognitive Behavioral Therapies, Dialectical Behavioral Therapies...etc

It's about finding what works & clinical structured paperwork & documentation will tell you the state of the individual & you will know the percentages of each outcome....
YOU WILL KNOW THE:
Antecedents
Precursors
Life Interfering Behavior
Aggression/SIB
And exactly how long the recovery time is for the person after onset of target behavior

This is the area that is focused on By Real Behavioral Specialists
So we know when to interviene & what is the best way to approach this, even what type of voice, Firm but Calm, Gave 3 controlled choices so the client doesn't feel he is being controlled...telling someone what they are going to do maintains anger, aggressiveness....so giving 3 controlled choices is a great tool. reminding a client of past event (if it has worked in the past).

AFter every event a detailed behavioral report is preformed:
The Day of the week,
What was the person doing before target behavior
What were the weather Conditions
The Enviromental Conditions
What did the client say
Who was around during behavior
Who did what to who

So just from what was public ......suicide is ruled Out IMO

People who REALLY work with those who have suicidal thoughts, I have not ever read of 1 case of that happing in all within an hour. Impossible

Some target specific people, specific look

There is so much I feel they already know & this board throws unbelievable nonsense



I do not even have to base line & chart to tell you THERE WAS NO WAY SG WAS GOING TO TAKE HER OWN LIKE EVER That Night>

I also would wonder about the person who wrote that & I would be more concerned that they are projecting & if they were not than I would think that they are trying to help the SK get away with MURDER.......That's my OPINION..... I do not know who you are but I do know that you are off by Magnitudes at time. So I question your up to date knowledge base .......So you have a self serving agenda my friend....

 

[Peter Brendt]

No Offense, it's total nonsense what you're shoveling.....ones actions explains the intent, the motive.....I can not even believe I read such nonsense.

Of course that can be ruled out.....OMG.....this is why this place is getting pretty wacky....

the Movie before hand can also set a stage to ones behavior, when dealing with a time frame.....The day before charting each hour...or even clumping a week long Chart.....From hour to hour can achieve setting a base line & one gets a real good Idea of SG state of being...stressors, relationship issues, need for money...I FEEL MP did more of the trolling because while they were at the show.....wasn't MP posting on a website & Craigs list.....They do earn there income from SG....

It's called charting behaviors to get a baseline on them....So you are all creating a shameful bunch of nonsense IMO....

I really read a lot of nonsense crap that is not used in the field....I just think it is like when a drug company conducts a research group using a controlled group insuring the outcome they wanted....

But charting behaviors are realistic, It actually gives a true baseline for each behavior. So you can focus on the whole picture of a client......

Really not complicated....I do not buy your personal opinion in regards to different theories....it means one is using personal opinions......

When you go by a structured criteria for charting behaviors......It's very different than what you people SEEM to BE Discussing....In psychology....it's about the Approach the Professional uses to determine why a behavior is caused.

Freud, BF Skinner, Jung....than Cognitive Behavioral Therapies, Dialectical Behavioral Therapies...etc

It's about finding what works & clinical structured paperwork & documentation will tell you the state of the individual & you will know the percentages of each outcome....
YOU WILL KNOW THE:
Antecedents
Precursors
Life Interfering Behavior
Aggression/SIB
And exactly how long the recovery time is for the person after onset of target behavior

This is the area that is focused on By Real Behavioral Specialists
So we know when to interviene & what is the best way to approach this, even what type of voice, Firm but Calm, Gave 3 controlled choices so the client doesn't feel he is being controlled...telling someone what they are going to do maintains anger, aggressiveness....so giving 3 controlled choices is a great tool. reminding a client of past event (if it has worked in the past).

AFter every event a detailed behavioral report is preformed:
The Day of the week,
What was the person doing before target behavior
What were the weather Conditions
The Enviromental Conditions
What did the client say
Who was around during behavior
Who did what to who

So just from what was public ......suicide is ruled Out IMO

People who REALLY work with those who have suicidal thoughts, I have not ever read of 1 case of that happing in all within an hour. Impossible

Some target specific people, specific look

There is so much I feel they already know & this board throws unbelievable nonsense



I do not even have to base line & chart to tell you THERE WAS NO WAY SG WAS GOING TO TAKE HER OWN LIKE EVER That Night>

I also would wonder about the person who wrote that & I would be more concerned that they are projecting & if they were not than I would think that they are trying to help the SK get away with MURDER.......That's my OPINION..... I do not know who you are but I do know that you are off by Magnitudes at time. So I question your up to date knowledge base .......So you have a self serving agenda my friend....

Can you try that again in coherent sentences please?

Peter

 

[Samantha Spade]

My logic professor was an algorithm prodigy, but he couldnt find his way out of a paper bag.
I get the argument from a logic's class standpoint, but this is the real deal. we have shannan's family and friends reading here. you know the chances of shannan committing suicide that night are between slim and none. we will do less damage discussing whether or not the sun will come up tomorrow, because there is a possibility it wont. i hated that pompous , but i refused to drop his class.

 

[Peter Brendt]

My logic professor was an algorithm prodigy, but he couldnt find his way out of a paper bag.
I get the argument from a logic's class standpoint, but this is the real deal. we have shannan's family and friends reading here. you know the chances of shannan committing suicide that night are between slim and none. we will do less damage discussing whether or not the sun will come up tomorrow, because there is a possibility it wont. i hated that pompous , but i refused to drop his class.

But as much as you hate it, the base for all those murder theories isn't much stronger. Which is essentially the point. It's not about a real suicide theory, it's about showing how weak the homicide theory in fact is.

Peter

 

[Samantha Spade]

Well that is true. and is the reason i can entertain different theories by starting off with--- so assuming if this is true..... but i just cannot entertain the suicide theory. my conscience wont let me.

I read your profile on your site. I think you are on to something with a stalker type living near MB.

 

[Tugela]

Money gets transfered upon arrival....is that where they went for 15 minutes....Money up front for hours paid & he RAN OVER REmember???? They always get money up front lets remember the 3 talk & maybe that was the plan as MP would have been arrested & they agreed to that story.

FRANKLY they are all liars...Not one word that comes out of any of there mouths.....should be repeated as facts. THE Dead victims deserve that much till the truth comes out....

That is old news Dormer said shannan agreed on price & what he wanted than monety amount. These are seasoned people I think Shannan wanted the money for the extra time....that he made excuses about...JMO

I do not believe Possible sadistic Serial Killers who torture young Girls all the same type of victims for that matter....Why go on a edge to make statements that were proven to be false over a year ago...???

Dormer wouldn't know squat about the money unless one of the three told him and I doubt they did.

The way the escort thing generally works is that an add is placed (usually on a website or newspaper), with a number to call. That number is answered by either the escort or someone she employs to take the calls and filter out all the suspicious or prank ones (they get many). The arrangement to meet is made. The escort then contacts her driver, who drives her out there, waits for her, then drives her back again. He/she doubles as security, so if something goes wrong and she does not come out again, there is someone on hand to do something about it. When the escort goes in, she and the client chat for a bit, make final negotiations, then if everyone is good to go, she gets paid. Sometimes she will elect to get paid afterwards, but usually only with regulars. Then they do their thing for whatever length of time was agreed on. When the time is up she leaves. If she doesn't leave, after a bit of waiting the driver kicks the door down and comes to rescue her. When she leaves she gives the driver his fee (usually around $50 on an hour outcall). If she has someone answering her phone (sometimes used as security as well, the escort will make a phone call at a predetermined time to check in), that person gets paid a fee for the call as well. She keeps the rest, less whatever she might give to her pimp/boyfriend, if she has one. Sometimes the pimp/boyfriend is also the driver, but that doesn't seem to the case here. If she does it properly there are lots of people who know where she went, who she met, when she arrived and when/if she left. A professional escort is not out there by herself, she has a team behind her. This girls who get into trouble are the amateurs on the lower end of craigslist who don't have those things to protect themselves.

This is how it is generally done. I'm not sure what you or other folk here are confused about. I don't care what Dormer says, he wasn't there.

Something to keep in mind, SG appears to have the normal escort security procedures in place, unlike the other dead girls found in the area, who seem to have been freelancing without security.

 

[truthspider]

I agree that rational thinking makes the possibility of suicide unlikely. However, when it comes to the actions of chronic drug users or people with a history of mental illness, rational thinking is not applicable. In this case, we have a victim with a drug addiction along with a mental disorder that is known to be one of the leading factors that causes suicide (incidentally, right behind depression & bipolar disorder, substance abuse is the 2nd leading factor attributed to suicide). Time spent in foster care along with the inability to leave an abusive relationship are also on the list of risk factors.

With the ME stating that her cause of death cannot be determined, anything is possible. There is no proof that can rule out the possibilty that SG completely lost her mind that evening and decided to overdose on drugs. Before you knock this possibility you should be aware that there have been plenty of cases of bi-polar drug addicts committing suicide after experiencing extreme paranoia. It's fairly difficult for us to understand this possibility using rational thought & common sense. It also seems sureal to envision any theory where we are asked to accept that SG was not murdered given the discovery of all of the other victims found nearby.

I know this is probably asking too much of anyone to consider.

All I can say is that a suicidal rampage cannot be ruled out because there is not a shred of evidence that points away from it. There are actually more pieces to the puzzle that fit this possibility than any other. For instance, this would explain why she was running around the swampy bramble with no pants on (as well as why she left her purse, jacket and cell phone behind).

This isn't my theory on what happened (although now that I am thinking it through, it does seem more likely than the crazy one-legged doctor theory). I am just simply pointing out that out of the five legal definitions of causes of death (as pointed out by BKS), we cannot make the assumption that suicide is off the table just like we cannot take "Accident" or "Homicide" off the table.

On the same line of thinking, I have a question;

If a woman's low self-esteme or poor judgement placed her in an extremely dangerous & reckless situation and then she dies as a result of her lack of regard for her own safety (reckless self-endangerment), is that considered suicide or accidentally killing oneself?

sounds like someone who has their own motives, your analysis defies rationality.

 

[truthspider]

like I said, I am not saying that she committed suicide. Just pointing out that you cannot rule it out because there is more evidence pointing towards suicide than any other cause of death.

bonkers

 

[Just K]

Just for the record, these are the facts.

By 5:30 AM it was near 65*

Thee gray-blue pre-dawn light would have been present, and lighting the way, by the time Shannan reached the opening to the field...if she ever really did.

The field, brush, marsh...whatever you choose to call it, was not flooded out on May 1st, 2010. (There was probably only a little standing water in the mosquito or drainage ditches.)

There were very clear-cut and visible 4x4 trails through the entire bramble-filled area between the parkway and the backyards of the homes on both Lambord and the Circle.

No aerial shot has ever been located showing that area as flooded. (See the maps and aerials thread.)

Rainfall for three week period, prior to May 1st, was near or below the average of 4.0".

Shannan was said to be screaming and ringing doorbells looking for help.

Her footprints were said to have been seen just outside of a neighboring driveway, IIRC on Anchor Way.

The video from the gate taped over itself but the SCPD said they have the hard drive or backup files.

Shannan G stayed on the 911 call from about 4:50 AM until 5:13 AM...23 minutes was the total.

We don't know if she had hung up with 911 before she started running, screaming and banging on doors.

We don't know if there was anyone else at JB's house.

There are numerous calls to & from MP and SG between 4:00 and 5:00 AM.

Supposedly, there is a call from JB to MP.

It took LE until 6:00 AM to arrive. That is about 45 minutes from the time SG disconnected from 911.

The first officers on the scene were said to be from the Maritime/Marine unit whatever they call the ones who are in boats..

Her jacket was said to be found, by someone in LE, along the road, but was later said to have gone missing.

At some point, LE called for a helicopter and an officer with a search dog.

No SIGN or Scent of SG has yet to have been publicized by LE. The facts as to that initial search have not been detailed but only general information was released.
Aerial searches did not indicate that SG went into the brushy field nor find/spot her belongings or her body.

From Dec 2010 until Dec 2011, there were numerous ground and air searches that indicated no sign of SG. The search teams and SAR officers with dogs either did not search the area near Oak Beach or did not alert to her or her belongings/scent.

18 months after her disappearance:
SG was found yards off the parkway, dead.

Her belongings (pants, purse/bag, cellphone &lip gloss) were found nearly 3/4 of a mile away and in the field near the backyards of homes off Lambord Way (SP?)
(Shoes?)

LE immediately said she drowned. This was before she had even been taken to the ME's office.

4+ months later the ME listed COD as UNDETERMINED
The only piece missing from her remains was her Hyoid Bone.

LE has not released:
Any details as to what was found on SG's remains (Wig, a shirt, a bra, underpants, her other earring or any other jewelry...) or what was found in her purse or pants pockets, etc

The cell records of MP, JB or CPH

The 911 call

The Video backup files from the Oak Beach Gatehouse.

Images taken, between May 1, 2010 and Dec 2011, by aerial searches of the area where SG was found.

Autopsy results/records of SG. (The condition/color/deterioration of her bones, etc.)

The Field Data or crime scene photos from where SG was found. Was the ground and vegetation indicative of a body decaying in that exact location. Were the bones intact?

LE has not stated if she had any recent fractures, etc

There are Phone Records that show:
CPH, called the MG and MP/AD

This is all the information that the public is privy to or has not been given.



For all we know, SG made it to the Parkway and was struck by an oncoming vehicle. He body could have been thrown 100 feet by the impact. But since we do not know if her legs/hips or skull were fractured, there is no way for us to make even a remote educated guess.

But, with all of the above, suicide is the least likely COD. IMLO (In My Logical Opinion,) of course.

 

[Seaslug44]

For anyone who just joined this conversation late and has something to say about it without reading the details- nobody is saying that SG committed suicide. What I was simply pointing out that the evidence in her case that many people claim points towards homicide is so weak that there is actually more evidence pointing towards the likelyhood of suicide. The evidence is also so scarce that we can't RULE OUT suicide either.

That's how weak this case is. That was the point. Nobody was ever suggesting that she committed suicide. If you go back and read every post that's what I wrote.

Sorry for engaging in a high-level discussion of logics and probability to look at the many different layers of this case (I thought that is what we are supposed to do around here).

 

[Seaslug44]

sounds like someone who has their own motives, your analysis defies rationality.

Seriously?????

This is coming from someone who has publically convicted an innocent man and used slander & libel to attempt to convince others that this person is guilty?

Sorry, YOU are the only member here with a motive.