Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. What do you think?

[Peter Brendt]

some want to be able to blame the victims for some reason.....

Yeah, it's all a giant conspiracy, from CPH via the FBI, including all dead and living OB residents. the complete SCPD, all pimps in NYC and now also members of WS. Who knows, maybe aliens or Illuminati can tell you more. Otherwise, it's called blaming the reality and the old ploy to accuse others to "blame the victims" is just an under the belt attack, you would better have spared yourself.

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

OF COURSE I COULD BE WRONG, but the facts, IMHO, suggest otherwise. She is dead. She made a phone call that said she feared for her life. She was found near the bodies of 4 known prostitutes that were murdered.

The ME couldn't or wouldn't find a cause of death. Sorry, Peter,but I don't think most of the posters on this board would agree with you.

I am open to all suggestions.

Sure the cops would love to close the SG death. The question is : Why haven't they done so already? Because no reasonable person would believe it without convincing and definite evidence.

Okay, here is one suggestion: Explain to me why SG had 23 minutes of time in which, despite her claims, obviously nobody tried to kill her.

Peter

 

[Samantha Spade]

Mr. B asked, "Okay, here is one suggestion: Explain to me why SG had 23 minutes of time in which, despite her claims, obviously nobody tried to kill her."

Peter
__________________


Sorry for butting in. I know this question was directed at Hawk, but I'm pushy and impulsive and couldn't hold back. Please humor me:

Possible scenario: John drugs shannan with the intention of torturing and killing her (many sadistic sk's have been known to use drugging their victims as a way to keep them under control.) He was a little ticked that she arrived with a driver, but no problem, he'll get to him later after he parties for a while and saves his fantasy plan for last. John thinks Shannan does not have a phone, but low and behold, she had another one handy and uses it to call 911 when she realizes that she's been drugged and the John's intentions seem less than noble, well, more like sinister.

John's first reaction: "HOLY SH*P!" Now she's got LE on the phone via 911. I can't do anything while they are on the phone, I gotta think, I gotta think, holy cr*p!, usually I like to plan and prepare these things out, but this got out of control from the get go. what am I gonna do? I'm not used to being the one not in control. Okay, I'll get MP in here and we will calm her down and make her (and the 911 operator) that she is hallucinating or something. Once we get that damn phone away from her, I'll think of something, because I always take control eventually. And I can't risk her talking to the cops after the drugs wear off."

 

[WINDSOR]

Mr. B asked, "Okay, here is one suggestion: Explain to me why SG had 23 minutes of time in which, despite her claims, obviously nobody tried to kill her."

Peter
__________________


Sorry for butting in. I know this question was directed at Hawk, but I'm pushy and impulsive and couldn't hold back. Please humor me:

Possible scenario: John drugs shannan with the intention of torturing and killing her (many sadistic sk's have been known to use drugging their victims as a way to keep them under control.) He was a little ticked that she arrived with a driver, but no problem, he'll get to him later after he parties for a while and saves his fantasy plan for last. John thinks Shannan does not have a phone, but low and behold, she had another one handy and uses it to call 911 when she realizes that she's been drugged and the John's intentions seem less than noble, well, more like sinister.

John's first reaction: "HOLY SH*P!" Now she's got LE on the phone via 911. I can't do anything while they are on the phone, I gotta think, I gotta think, holy cr*p!, usually I like to plan and prepare these things out, but this got out of control from the get go. what am I gonna do? I'm not used to being the one not in control. Okay, I'll get MP in here and we will calm her down and make her (and the 911 operator) that she is hallucinating or something. Once we get that damn phone away from her, I'll think of something, because I always take control eventually. And I can't risk her talking to the cops after the drugs wear off."

JB (This is who I believe you are referring to as John) could not be ticked off with SG arriving with a driver, as JB made arrangement's with the driver to bring SG to JB's home

 

[WINDSOR]

Peter,

Agreed we have no proof as to the cause of SG's death. But again I refer to probability and chance, by asking the question.

What is the probability of a woman who works in the underground economy who has called 911, is in fear for life, is seen running away on the street, may have been under the influence of drugs or other substances, disappears, then many months later is found dead

If I was an odds setter in Vegas, I would lay the odds as follows.

Suicide.................very very very unlikely, (0.01%)

Natural causes............very very unlikely, (0.1%)

Accidental Causes...drowning, bleed out from cut, attacked by animal, (29.89%)

Foul Play............it is the only choice left (70.0%)

Before Columbus sailed West, there was no evidence that the earth was round. There were theories, assumptions and guesses. But no proof, regardless of the lack of proof the world was in fact round. My point is, just because you cannot prove something is real and/or true, does not mean it is false and/or imaginary.

Of course in a court of law, the term 'beyond reasonable doubt' is paramount.



MOO

 

[Seaslug44]

Peter,

Agreed we have no proof as to the cause of SG's death. But again I refer to probability and chance, by asking the question.

What is the probability of a woman who works in the underground economy who has called 911, is in fear for life, is seen running away on the street, may have been under the influence of drugs or other substances, disappears, then many months later is found dead

If I was an odds setter in Vegas, I would lay the odds as follows.

Suicide.................very very very unlikely, (0.01%)

Natural causes............very very unlikely, (0.1%)

Accidental Causes...drowning, bleed out from cut, attacked by animal, (29.89%)

Foul Play............it is the only choice left (70.0%)

Before Columbus sailed West, there was no evidence that the earth was round. There were theories, assumptions and guesses. But no proof, regardless of the lack of proof the world was in fact round. My point is, just because you cannot prove something is real and/or true, does not mean it is false and/or imaginary.

Of course in a court of law, the term 'beyond reasonable doubt' is paramount.



MOO

Where would drug induced coma, heart attack, stroke or passing out & dying of hypothermia fit in?

 

[Samantha Spade]

Windsor said, "JB (This is who I believe you are referring to as John) could not be ticked off with SG arriving with a driver, as JB made arrangement's with the driver to bring SG to JB's home."

----------------
Thanks for pointing that out Windsor. okay scratch that part. I do recall reading that in the SCPD meeting notes. I also recall reading in a news story that JB had said he was upset she showed up with a driver. So much misinformation. Who knows what to believe? I'm not sure where they got that from, but I'll stick with the SCPD source info you mention: JB made arrangements with Pak. I'm not sure if that definitely means JB knew Pak was the driver or just the pimp/scheduler and if he would be driving Shannan there as opposed to Shannan arriving on her own.

 

[truthspider]

Where would drug induced coma, heart attack, stroke or passing out & dying of hypothermia fit in?

Thats a good question, we should ask a medical professional. Lets ask the doctor that treated SG just prior to her death if she showed any symptoms that may shed light on those odds. I think his name is Hacker ...or something like that, he was with her and had claimed to treat her according to some of his neighbors.

 

[Samantha Spade]

Statiticians and logic professors don't solve homicide cases.
Street smart, kick *advertiser censored* homicide detectives do. And along with the facts and evidence they use intuition and tacit knowledge that they have gained through years of experience. Ask Commander Geberth what he thinks of this case and Shannan's mysterious death. I bet his opinion is similar to Hawks.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Mr. B asked, "Okay, here is one suggestion: Explain to me why SG had 23 minutes of time in which, despite her claims, obviously nobody tried to kill her."

Peter
__________________


Sorry for butting in. I know this question was directed at Hawk, but I'm pushy and impulsive and couldn't hold back. Please humor me:

Possible scenario: John drugs shannan with the intention of torturing and killing her (many sadistic sk's have been known to use drugging their victims as a way to keep them under control.) He was a little ticked that she arrived with a driver, but no problem, he'll get to him later after he parties for a while and saves his fantasy plan for last. John thinks Shannan does not have a phone, but low and behold, she had another one handy and uses it to call 911 when she realizes that she's been drugged and the John's intentions seem less than noble, well, more like sinister.

John's first reaction: "HOLY SH*P!" Now she's got LE on the phone via 911. I can't do anything while they are on the phone, I gotta think, I gotta think, holy cr*p!, usually I like to plan and prepare these things out, but this got out of control from the get go. what am I gonna do? I'm not used to being the one not in control. Okay, I'll get MP in here and we will calm her down and make her (and the 911 operator) that she is hallucinating or something. Once we get that damn phone away from her, I'll think of something, because I always take control eventually. And I can't risk her talking to the cops after the drugs wear off."

Oh my ... so, this john gets himself a prostitute with the intention to drug, torture and kill her. Still, he is so unprepared, that he doesn't expect the driver (to whom he had explained the way to his place just about an hour ago). Then, he, the terrible successful serial killer LISK messes up the drug dosage so she is able to come back (we leave here out, why he didn't restrain her in the first place, because that is usually the next step after drugging to subdue). Oookay, lets say, I don't buy it because it's already somewhere between unlikely and bad novel up till this point.
But it goes on. John asks the driver in. The driver is some kind of career criminal, who is in this business for years. He would recognize that someone drugged the girl or at least that she was drugged. And he would know, she wasn't when she went in. And of course, he would also see the difference between drugs used to subdue someone and drugs for "recreational" purposes. Unless SG had a habit to take sleeping pills for recreational use ... oh well.
And the thing with the phone call, I love it. The operator reports of a pretty exited caller, exited in the negative sense. Loud, screaming "they want to kill me". Surely the picture of someone who was sent to sleep by drugs to subdue said person. And they let it go on for 23 minutes. Wait ... they ... because our homicidal john had his friend the drifter there. Ok, to speak with Cannel: "Castle, you lost me here!" I mean, very rarely SKs invite friends over to have more witnesses.
Lets say, this theory doesn't look too convincing to me. Maybe it needs more detail work?

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

Where would drug induced coma, heart attack, stroke or passing out & dying of hypothermia fit in?

That depends who or what caused the conditions that led to this COD. For example, if you get driven over by a car, the COD per se is blunt force trauma or multiple traumata (depending on the speed of the car mostly). But your death would be normally ruled as "accident".
Unless, the driver was drunk. Then the very same accident becomes manslaughter. Or he drove over you intentionally, then it could be murder one or two (which would probably depend on his motive).
To adapt that on SG: If she died for example in a state of paranoia or overheating or hypothermia, than this is a consequence of what happened before and led to that result. And if the person, who supplied the drugs can be pinned, one could make a nice manslaughter case out of it. But for that we would need to get the attention back on reality instead of wild murder theories.

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

Statiticians and logic professors don't solve homicide cases.
Street smart, kick *advertiser censored* homicide detectives do. And along with the facts and evidence they use intuition and tacit knowledge that they have gained through years of experience. Ask Commander Geberth what he thinks of this case and Shannan's mysterious death. I bet his opinion is similar to Hawks.

You denial of logic is scary. I hope it doesn't say too much about the state of our educational system, that would be embarrassing. Lets see, statistically those street smart detectives need nowadays 17 years for the average SK, which is for most PDs like two generations of them. And back in the past, there were exactly three kinds of detectives who solved SK cases:

- those who were too late (like the ones called in AFTER police knew already what was in Dahmer's apartment)

- those who were lucky and got the SK delivered by accident (see Bundy and speeding, see Rifkin and the license plate)

- profilers (like in the Hanson case or the Wayne Williams case)

So, if you value the opinion of a group of professionals who have in the discussed field a success quota of exactly zero percent that high, this is your good right. However, I wouldn't. Soooo ... if you tried to insult any logic person on this planet, it just backfired.

Peter

 

[Samantha Spade]

No denial of the value of logic and importance of statistical analysis there.

 

[Seaslug44]

Oh my ... so, this john gets himself a prostitute with the intention to drug, torture and kill her. Still, he is so unprepared, that he doesn't expect the driver (to whom he had explained the way to his place just about an hour ago). Then, he, the terrible successful serial killer LISK messes up the drug dosage so she is able to come back (we leave here out, why he didn't restrain her in the first place, because that is usually the next step after drugging to subdue). Oookay, lets say, I don't buy it because it's already somewhere between unlikely and bad novel up till this point.
But it goes on. John asks the driver in. The driver is some kind of career criminal, who is in this business for years. He would recognize that someone drugged the girl or at least that she was drugged. And he would know, she wasn't when she went in. And of course, he would also see the difference between drugs used to subdue someone and drugs for "recreational" purposes. Unless SG had a habit to take sleeping pills for recreational use ... oh well.
And the thing with the phone call, I love it. The operator reports of a pretty exited caller, exited in the negative sense. Loud, screaming "they want to kill me". Surely the picture of someone who was sent to sleep by drugs to subdue said person. And they let it go on for 23 minutes. Wait ... they ... because our homicidal john had his friend the drifter there. Ok, to speak with Cannel: "Castle, you lost me here!" I mean, very rarely SKs invite friends over to have more witnesses.
Lets say, this theory doesn't look too convincing to me. Maybe it needs more detail work?

Peter

Let's not forget that this is supposed to be the very same intelligent LISK who has proven that he knows exactly how long it takes LE to trace a phone call yet in this story for some reason he stands there and allows his drugged victim to remain on the phone with 911 long enough for them to possibly trace the call to his neighborhood even after his drugged victim told the operator that she was somewhere on Fire Island.

So JB is supposed to be the mastermind who has not left a single trace of evidence that can be linked back to him after killing ten other people?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Let's not forget that this is supposed to be the very same intelligent LISK who has proven that he knows exactly how long it takes LE to trace a phone call yet in this story for some reason he stands there and allows his drugged victim to remain on the phone with 911 long enough for them to possibly trace the call to his neighborhood even after his drugged victim told the operator that she was somewhere on Fire Island.

So JB is supposed to be the mastermind who has not left a single trace of evidence that can be linked back to him after killing ten other people?

New profile then? By this theory our unsub has the IQ of a piece of veggie, so search the veggie gardens. Which, of course, since at the same time Brewer (a former financial advisor and CPH (a doctor) remain the main pivot points of all conspiracy theories, and both have their degrees, brings some other questions up.
So, my suggestion is, we forget that whole veggie-IQ theory beginning with Samantha's original post?

Peter

 

[Seaslug44]

New profile then? By this theory our unsub has the IQ of a piece of veggie, so search the veggie gardens. Which, of course, since at the same time Brewer (a former financial advisor and CPH (a doctor) remain the main pivot points of all conspiracy theories, and both have their degrees, brings some other questions up.
So, my suggestion is, we forget that whole veggie-IQ theory beginning with Samantha's original post?

Peter

I second your motion and vote that we forget the veggie-IQ theory so we can possibly begin to move forward with some sort of rational thoughts.

 

[Samantha Spade]

I second your motion and vote that we forget the veggie-IQ theory so we can possibly begin to move forward with some sort of rational thoughts.

Rational thoughts? Like trying to blame the victim on a site that is supposedly victim friendly? And one that the victims families read?

Even if you are just using it to make a point, havent you considered the effect it would have on them?


And Mr. b. i got the veggie iq dig.
I forgive you.

 

[MrsPC]

this is why I hardly post any more...

Law enforcement isn't giving us anything & egos are surfacing on the board that really don't add anything to the discussion.

None of us are any better at sleuthing than the other.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Rational thoughts? Like trying to blame the victim on a site that is supposedly victim friendly? And one that the victims families read?

Even if you are just using it to make a point, havent you considered the effect it would have on them?


And Mr. b. i got the veggie iq dig.
I forgive you.

So Truthspider has given up the under the belt attack and you renew it? Lets make the point clear then. I am personally more reality friendly than politically correct. And to me, someone who fell into that drug swamp of problems and dies in the consequence is a sad story as much as someone, who got picked by an insane serial killer. So yes, bad things happen and they are sad.
However, I am also not openly SK-friendly. I will never get the point in it is better to be killed by an SK than by an accident. Personally, I can't deny a certain relief, that Shanna Gilbert at least hadn't to go through that. THAT in this case means to be snatched, kept and tortured for a few days before being strangulated. So why do you wish, she would have gone through this? Why do you wish it so much that you try to construct wild theories to make it look like she went through that mill? Do you get anything out of it?
And since we are at asking questions: Is there any reason, that you jump in with the same ******** after Truth got just stopped at it? Always? This gets slowly old. I mean, okay, I think, I know who you were on the defunct LISK board and there you were often an overly faithful follower of Fluke, so did you find yourself a new master who does the thinking for you? Questions over questions, Samantha. Care to answer them?

Peter

 

[Seaslug44]

So Truthspider has given up the under the belt attack and you renew it? Lets make the point clear then. I am personally more reality friendly than politically correct. And to me, someone who fell into that drug swamp of problems and dies in the consequence is a sad story as much as someone, who got picked by an insane serial killer. So yes, bad things happen and they are sad.
However, I am also not openly SK-friendly. I will never get the point in it is better to be killed by an SK than by an accident. Personally, I can't deny a certain relief, that Shanna Gilbert at least hadn't to go through that. THAT in this case means to be snatched, kept and tortured for a few days before being strangulated. So why do you wish, she would have gone through this? Why do you wish it so much that you try to construct wild theories to make it look like she went through that mill? Do you get anything out of it?
And since we are at asking questions: Is there any reason, that you jump in with the same ******** after Truth got just stopped at it? Always? This gets slowly old. I mean, okay, I think, I know who you were on the defunct LISK board and there you were often an overly faithful follower of Fluke, so did you find yourself a new master who does the thinking for you? Questions over questions, Samantha. Care to answer them?

Peter

This is exactly how I feel.

I do not understand the obsession with wishing that the family learn that a loved one was a victim who died a horrible death after a gruesome torture... A death that the victim did not wish for or deserve. I do not understand the obsession with wishing that the family discover that a loved one was a victim of an evil conspiracy versus possibly dying a peaceful death unaware that death was evident.

When it comes to respecting a family, nothing is more disrespectful than an obsession with wishing the family's worst nightmare comes true and the possibility that they will have to live with knowing that justice will never be served and the evil person responsible could possibly never pay for his crime.