Sheila and Katherine Lyon-sisters missing since 1975 - #1

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ginsack said:
I don't recall anyone talking about previously seeing a man with a tape recorder or seeing the girls walking down Drumm at 7:30pm. Kids of my generation came home for dinner.
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One of our regular posters here has a theory that the reported evening sighting was actually eleven in the morning rather than seven in the evening and that it was marked down wrong or misheard by the police. Would you think something like that would be more likely?
 
ginsak,
thank you for coming here to post. your personal insight is valuable. I hope you continue to read here and post.
do you remember the police searching all of the houses around the area on the night the girls went missing? Or did searches that night only include outdoor places?
thanks again for taking the time to answer questions here.
 
Origianlly posted by Fukiyama-

I just wanted to note that 'Tommy' is called 'Tommy' by everyone here because that is the alias given the boy in the newspaper accounts of the time. We all know that wasn't his real name.

Actually,the alias given the boy who saw TRM was,"Jimmy".....Tommy came from another poster who claimed to know "Jimmy" and claimed that his real name was Tommy.
 
OOps, I meant to ask.
Ginsak, do you have any theory as to what may have happened to the girls that day. You were a neighbor and the same age as Sheila so I am wondering if you had any ideas back then as to what may have happened, and/or if you have any ideas now 34 years later. As their neighbor and their friend my condolences go out to you. I can't imagine living that close to this terrible event. I hope one day this family will get the answers they need.
 
Ginseck,

Thanks for your response to my post.

You are bringing details to light that are making the family and their tragedy become much more real.

What conversations did you have with your neighbor's father in law?

Did you tell him you were the girl's next door neighbor?

Did you ever cross reference notes about what your sister reported and what the police did or did not do with that information? This seems to be a whiff of something or someone else that may be another piece of the puzzle in this crime.




Please note the article in this thread that has a report of a 12 year old boy reporting that he "witnessed" the girls walking toward the plaza at 7:30 PM on Drumm Street.

Your statement about John and Joe Lyon playing catch at 5PM is so extra-ordinary in that this was their last peaceful moment before having their lives' shattered forever.

Please know that I never meant to imply that the girls were anything but wholesome. At that age kids experiment. Good kids experiment, as they did all around me when I was growing up. Some would, including me when I was 13 or 14, would go into the woods with the older kids who might have beer or a bong or both.

Kids that went to Catholic schools, and then at some point in their educational career showed up in public school were often far less known for some years then most other kids at school.

Others, including those on this site, reported seeing a TRM at Wheaton Plaza earlier in March of 1975. His sketch called forth other witnesses - It seems remarkable that your sister was pursued more for the potential nugget of information that she reported.
 
Ginseck, thank you for your posts. A post like yours is so precious. Those of us that have discussions on this site spend many hours searching for small amounts of information that do not even compare to what you have provided us with. To get some first hand information after all these years is amazing if not impossible. Please share with us any bit of information you have about Sheila and Katherine no matter how insignificant you think it is.
 
Was you sister ever asked anything later on in the follow up about the man she saw ,how old he looked ,what he was wearing etc.. I find it very odd they didnt try to get a composit done based the fact that was the girls presumed way home. If she was shown a picture today on what he looked like in 1975 would she be able to say if that was they guy or not?

My mothers family is from the wheaton area she had 6 brothers and met my dad in wheaton in 74.. I was born in 75 and my sister Sheila was born in 76 ,I thought it odd my dad named her that in that time period, due to the nature of the case ,and him being aware of it but i guess he liked the name. I have heard about this case for years but didnt become aware of alot of the details lack there of until a few years ago. When I read about tape recorder man It brought me back to when I was little and my granddad(dads side) used to walk arround with novel items like that ,including a tape recorder w/a mic, a browning 8mm video camra, he would stike up random conversations with teens girls ,and flirt with young waitress call them honey and darling in a tone that wasnt what you would expect ,and get them to take pictures with him. It was really annoying to other ppl and us to the point it caused promblems on family outtings. I really do wonder if he was tape recorder man.The sightings of the girls in the car in manasses va really got me paraniod as he owned a house there but that sighting was proved to be unrelated correct? I know it is a cooky thought but a really cant shake it, because his behaviour was odd,then to me and I was little ,but thinking over it now it seems even more odd to me now and I am 34.
 
The memoirs of "Ginseck" are interesting, and remind me of the time as well. However, I don't think this adds much to the case. With all due respect, however, I think there is a lot of nostalgia in her account - I was intimately familiar with the area in 1975 also, and there were plenty of problems, and plenty of sinister activity (note that people keep bringing up this one-time resident of Jennings who was a child molester). Plyers Mill/McComas area could be a rough area at times - there were gangs (mild by today's standards, but still pretty scary). Frankly, I don't think the intimate knowledge of life there provides any special insight into what happened.

For the report on the evil-looking guy sitting on the slope just outside the Plaza that day, (and Firstman's opinion that it provides evidence of shoddy police work), I would just say that if you sent a police unit to investigate every dangerous looking person at Wheaton Plaza (in 1975 or today), Montgomery County would need a second police force. A few weeks after the Lyon girls disappeared, someone opened fire with an automatic weapon at the east side (Viers Mill Road) of the Plaza. I can't recall ever going to Wheaton Plaza as a child without seeing at least one frightening person on the premises. Older girls were hit on mercilessly. There were occasional flashers. You could even see guys from central casting in raincoats and fedoras, looking like they might have watches for sale in the lining. It was generally pretty safe in day time, in numbers, and serious incidents were relatively rare, considering how many people passed through there. But the Plaza is where everyone went, the innocent and everyone else.

The police effort was extraordinary, even if they did not hypnotize every Wheaton resident in the aftermath. They were hampered by few reliable, and conflicting, reports of witnesses, and the high winds and rain that made the dog search useless. They were also not prepared for a case of this kind, but nevertheless expended more resources on it than any case in county history. All the leads and supposed leads that the public knows about were explored exhaustively. It is easy to second-guess now, especially with the forensic tools available today, but this was a needle in a haystack from the first hour, and they can only do so much. It was an extremely skillful, or extremely lucky, abduction.
 
Soulmagent said:
Was you sister ever asked anything later on in the follow up about the man she saw ,how old he looked ,what he was wearing etc.. I find it very odd they didnt try to get a composit done based the fact that was the girls presumed way home. If she was shown a picture today on what he looked like in 1975 would she be able to say if that was they guy or not?

My mothers family is from the wheaton area she had 6 brothers and met my dad in wheaton in 74.. I was born in 75 and my sister Sheila was born in 76 ,I thought it odd my dad named her that in that time period, due to the nature of the case ,and him being aware of it but i guess he liked the name. I have heard about this case for years but didnt become aware of alot of the details lack there of until a few years ago. When I read about tape recorder man It brought me back to when I was little and my granddad(dads side) used to walk arround with novel items like that ,including a tape recorder w/a mic, a browning 8mm video camra, he would stike up random conversations with teens girls ,and flirt with young waitress call them honey and darling in a tone that wasnt what you would expect ,and get them to take pictures with him. It was really annoying to other ppl and us to the point it caused promblems on family outtings. I really do wonder if he was tape recorder man.The sightings of the girls in the car in manasses va really got me paraniod as he owned a house there but that sighting was proved to be unrelated correct? I know it is a cooky thought but a really cant shake it, because his behaviour was odd,then to me and I was little ,but thinking over it now it seems even more odd to me now and I am 34.
Click to expand...


WOW! Is your grandad still alive?
 
Thrasher said:
The memoirs of "Ginseck" are interesting, and remind me of the time as well. However, I don't think this adds much to the case. With all due respect, however, I think there is a lot of nostalgia in her account - I was intimately familiar with the area in 1975 also, and there were plenty of problems, and plenty of sinister activity (note that people keep bringing up this one-time resident of Jennings who was a child molester). Plyers Mill/McComas area could be a rough area at times - there were gangs (mild by today's standards, but still pretty scary). Frankly, I don't think the intimate knowledge of life there provides any special insight into what happened.

For the report on the evil-looking guy sitting on the slope just outside the Plaza that day, (and Firstman's opinion that it provides evidence of shoddy police work), I would just say that if you sent a police unit to investigate every dangerous looking person at Wheaton Plaza (in 1975 or today), Montgomery County would need a second police force. A few weeks after the Lyon girls disappeared, someone opened fire with an automatic weapon at the east side (Viers Mill Road) of the Plaza. I can't recall ever going to Wheaton Plaza as a child without seeing at least one frightening person on the premises. Older girls were hit on mercilessly. There were occasional flashers. You could even see guys from central casting in raincoats and fedoras, looking like they might have watches for sale in the lining. It was generally pretty safe in day time, in numbers, and serious incidents were relatively rare, considering how many people passed through there. But the Plaza is where everyone went, the innocent and everyone else.

The police effort was extraordinary, even if they did not hypnotize every Wheaton resident in the aftermath. They were hampered by few reliable, and conflicting, reports of witnesses, and the high winds and rain that made the dog search useless. They were also not prepared for a case of this kind, but nevertheless expended more resources on it than any case in county history. All the leads and supposed leads that the public knows about were explored exhaustively. It is easy to second-guess now, especially with the forensic tools available today, but this was a needle in a haystack from the first hour, and they can only do so much. It was an extremely skillful, or extremely lucky, abduction.
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Bolded by me for reference.

I think Ginsak's insight/knowledge of the Lyon family in 1975 is extremely helpful. Specifically insight into Sheila and Kate's personality and what they may or may not be prone to do. Not to mention she had a sister who was at the plaza that day and saw the goings on at the plaza on 3/25/75. She has also brought forth details about the family that have never been mentioned in this forum. I appreciate any insight from 1975 that can shed more light into this case. I believe someone who was in the area in 1975 may remember something insignificant that will one day break this case. After all someone had to see something.

I think it goes against the TOS to hint at or suggest the "real name" of any poster on this site. You may want to delete that portion of your post. I have deleted it from your quote here.

Montgomery County police are under no obligation to investigate every dangerous looking person at Wheaton Plaza in 1975. It is my opinion that they did have an obligation to investigate every dangerous looking person in or around Wheaton Plaza on 3/25/75 given this is the last place anyone can definitively place 2 young girls before they vanished seemingly without a trace. Anything less would be negligent.
 
Soulmagent-

did your grandfather live in Wheaton or in the area? you mentioned your mother's family did, but I think you said this grandfather was on your dad's side. Sorry if I have missed something here.
 
The police never searched the inside of any homes that I know of. We had a detatched garage/work shop and I remember my dad checking that area.

I do recall a conversation by my mother and sister wondering why the police were not interested in the person she saw. I think the police focused on the TRM because he was actually seen talking to the girls.

I believe the report of the girls walking towards Wheaton Plaza at 7:30pm was very inaccurate, whether it was a mistake by the police recording the wrong time, or misidentification by the witness.

I do remember the police searching the pond at the nursing home on McComus.

I never had the opportunity to directly discuss the Lyons with my former neighbors father in-law, just what he had told my friend. Second and third had information could be inaccurate so I will not post what I was told.

Thrasher, I can say I never saw anyone at Wheaton Plaza in raincoats and fedoras, was never hit on (nor were my older sisters), or flashed. I felt completely safe at Wheaton Plaza in 1975.
 
Thrasher said:
The memoirs of "Ginseck" are interesting, and remind me of the time as well. However, I don't think this adds much to the case. (By the way, "Ginseck" and her family are mentioned by her real name in early reporting on the story in the Washington Post). With all due respect, however, I think there is a lot of nostalgia in her account - I was intimately familiar with the area in 1975 also, and there were plenty of problems, and plenty of sinister activity (note that people keep bringing up this one-time resident of Jennings who was a child molester). Plyers Mill/McComas area could be a rough area at times - there were gangs (mild by today's standards, but still pretty scary). Frankly, I don't think the intimate knowledge of life there provides any special insight into what happened.

For the report on the evil-looking guy sitting on the slope just outside the Plaza that day, (and Firstman's opinion that it provides evidence of shoddy police work), I would just say that if you sent a police unit to investigate every dangerous looking person at Wheaton Plaza (in 1975 or today), Montgomery County would need a second police force. A few weeks after the Lyon girls disappeared, someone opened fire with an automatic weapon at the east side (Viers Mill Road) of the Plaza. I can't recall ever going to Wheaton Plaza as a child without seeing at least one frightening person on the premises. Older girls were hit on mercilessly. There were occasional flashers. You could even see guys from central casting in raincoats and fedoras, looking like they might have watches for sale in the lining. It was generally pretty safe in day time, in numbers, and serious incidents were relatively rare, considering how many people passed through there. But the Plaza is where everyone went, the innocent and everyone else.

The police effort was extraordinary, even if they did not hypnotize every Wheaton resident in the aftermath. They were hampered by few reliable, and conflicting, reports of witnesses, and the high winds and rain that made the dog search useless. They were also not prepared for a case of this kind, but nevertheless expended more resources on it than any case in county history. All the leads and supposed leads that the public knows about were explored exhaustively. It is easy to second-guess now, especially with the forensic tools available today, but this was a needle in a haystack from the first hour, and they can only do so much. It was an extremely skillful, or extremely lucky, abduction.
Click to expand...


Thrasher............did you swallow a nasty pill? Why must you point out the article where Ginseck and her family are called by their real names? Are you really soooo upset that someone who knew the family is posting here and that means you aren't the only one? There is a reason why we don't use our real names here.(By the way,do you want your real name posted?) You seem to forget why we are here and it's not to play,"Who knows the Lyon family best?" I remember a Lyon family member posting here about wanting to contact the family,you pm'd her and she vanished.I can only speak for myself here......please act like an adult and realize that ANYONE who posts here is welcome and ALL memories are helpful in some way.
 
Oh, relax. There was no attempt to embarrass anyone. I was just pointing out that some of this information was made available in the news at the time, and you can read the original material if you like. If you state what house you lived in in 1975, you certainly aren't concerned about preserving anonymity. I have no problem with this person.

Obviously this person knew the family well. Good for her; I am not competing. I did not know the Lyons at the time, and don't question any of her observations. If her reminiscences are interesting, fine. My only points are (a) personal knowledge of the neighborhood and family at the time do not bring us closer to understanding what happened, and (b) I think the description of the neighborhood, Wheaton Plaza, and the Wheaton/Kensington neighborhood at the time, is viewed through rose-colored glasses - there were problems, and there were dangers, and it was all more than the police could handle. Several businesses in the Wheaton Plaza area failed during that area primarily because they could not control the hoods that hung out and intimidated customers.

Thanks for your thoughts Firstman, nothing personal - I am glad you appreciate the police effort, and we can disagree about the strategy.
 
Thrasher said:
Oh, relax. There was no attempt to embarrass anyone. I was just pointing out that some of this information was made available in the news at the time, and you can read the original material if you like. If you state what house you lived in in 1975, you certainly aren't concerned about preserving anonymity. I have no problem with this person.

Obviously this person knew the family well. Good for her; I am not competing. I did not know the Lyons at the time, and don't question any of her observations. If her reminiscences are interesting, fine. My only points are (a) personal knowledge of the neighborhood and family at the time do not bring us closer to understanding what happened, and (b) I think the description of the neighborhood, Wheaton Plaza, and the Wheaton/Kensington neighborhood at the time, is viewed through rose-colored glasses - there were problems, and there were dangers, and it was all more than the police could handle. Several businesses in the Wheaton Plaza area failed during that area primarily because they could not control the hoods that hung out and intimidated customers.

Thanks for your thoughts Firstman, nothing personal - I am glad you appreciate the police effort, and we can disagree about the strategy.
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Bolded by me-

Careful.............your childish attitude is showing.:blowkiss:
 
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/debardeleben/index_1.html

This is now my theory - Debardeleben.

Dressed as a "tape recorder man" he was fishing for a name - he dressed himself and his car up as a police officer. He leaves the mall changes clothes, looks up the girls address, drives into the neighborhood - intercepts them as a cop and tells them to get in - your mother's been in a terrible accident and Holy Cross hospital sent me to find a Sheila and Kate Lyon.
 
Mind you the man is a master of disguises. Some fake facial hair, a slicked back hairdo, tear drop sunglasses and the girls could easily be fooled into thinking that they had never seen this man before. TRM becomes a cop and takes them away. Dude looks like the sketch of TRM too.
 
Where was Debardeleben March 25, 1975? This maniac could easily have kept these girls alive for a bit and been driving around with them as was reported in Northern VA. He was in Northern VA too and was a car thief.

This guy totally fits the profile, looks like the sketch of TRM, was known to keep tapes recordings of victims, was extremely sociopathic and psychopathic. If he is the perpetrator the psychological torture that he has inflicted on the Lyon family, every day since March 25, 1975 also fits his profile.
 
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