Should Casey Receive Counseling in Jail?

[eddeva]

If I had my way, I would plaster every inch of KC's cell with pictures of Caylee in life, in the garbage bags & on the "table." I want her to hear that baby screaming for her, see her lifting her little bitty arms to be held... I want KC to SUFFER, REALLY REALLY SUFFER for the rest of her life & in her death.

*respectfully snipped*
that won't make her suffer. she has no conscience. at best it would be an annoyance that would make her angry but she will never burst into tears of guilt and shame and suffer.

 

[Feistyoldbroad]

I voted yes because I want her to regain some type of conscience so she will realize what she has done, and live with that every day ofher life.

 

[txsvicki]

I think Casey should receive counseling while in jail and in prison if she is eligible to get the service. It could only add one more person or team to keep tabs on her and possibly help protect prison guards and other inmates. I was a nurse and believe that everyone deserves medical treatment, so there's no way I could say not feed Casey or give her medical care.

 

[eddeva]

The important study by Seto and Barbaree replicated -- unintentionally -- a 1992 Canadian study that found treated psychopaths reoffend more than psychopaths who are not treated. A larger study, just completed in Britain, shows the same. It may be that all psychopaths learn, in our new ersatz empathy institutes, is how to manipulate better by appearing more caring.

But mushy-gushy therapy is not just confined to therapists. It is part of a dangerous denial of the nature of psychopathy and evil that is sweeping through our correctional services. A recent federal task force on security, released on Nov. 2, advised getting rid of guards with guns, unseemly razor-wire fences and intimidating towers around prisons (National Post, Dec. 15). It even advised that inmates should carry the keys to their own cells so they could make "responsible choices." "Restorative justice" based on "a culture of respect" would be practised.

So here is a respectful way of framing things. Psychopaths constitute 1% of the population, but are so talented they conduct 50% of all crimes. Since it might be hurtful to say they are incurable, let's just say they are beyond therapy.

from:

Beyond therapy: Some evil can't be cured.

http://www.fact.on.ca/news/news0001/np000107.htm

 

[concentric]

It is too early in the process of the case to answer this question.

 

[mydailyopinions]

You can call me a cruel SOB, but looking at that family, do you really think Caylee was going to break the mold and become Mother Theresa?

We look at her as the adorable angel she was, when in reality, she probably never had a chance to be a productive citizen. She was being raised by a Sociopath, and the family who helped enable her behavior.

Poor Caylee never stood a chance.

I disagree 100% respectfully!
It is never fair to any child to say that because of the way they were raised or by whom that they will not be productive citizens. Actually that is what makes a person like Casey. Just tell them they will never be right, or they will never lead a good life, or they will never be a productive citizen..makes tons of sense
Many adults were raised by killers, raised by drug lords, rapists and all sorts of illegal activity, emotional abuse, physical abuse and become better citizens than you or I could ever think of being.
Caylee did stand a chance, her chance was just flat stolen from her!

 

[FightTheOstrich]

I'm curious, I continue to read time and again people state that had KC gotten counseling, or some type of intervention at an earlier stage this probably would not have happened. Now, my question is does anyone have statistics on the efficacy of the mental health industry (counseling, drugs, etc..) on those afflicted with mental issues. Meaning, how often does it take? All of the time? None of the time? Somewhere in the middle?

I've known countless people who were brought to counselors, given anti-depressants, what-have-you and still turned out just awful. Didn't both of the boys in the Columbine shootings either take psych. drugs or frequented the family psych? I believe so.

Sometimes really bad people are bound to do really bad things.

 

[Chilly Willy]

If Casey gets life without the possibility of parole, then I don't see the point to counseling. If there's a chance that she'll get out and rejoin the population some day, then yes she definitely should have it - for the sake of the rest of us out here in the world.

 

[Indigo]

from:

Beyond therapy: Some evil can't be cured.

http://www.fact.on.ca/news/news0001/np000107.htm

Thanks so much for posting this, eddeva! I especially appreciated the quote about sociopaths who use their therapy as a learning tool to become more adept at their crimes. I think the concept of evil as a choice rather than an illness is very hard for some to accept. If you've seen it first-hand--not so hard. JMO.

 

[Fuzzymuffin]

Since we still know so little about the brain I can't agree that there is no help for the sociopath. Some day there may be some glitch discovered in the brains of the sociopaths that could be treated. And this therapist believes that treatment providers shouldn't give up:
http://www.fineliterature.com/index_Page1126.htm

Books are being written about the treatment of the disorder: http://www.hare.org/scales/treatment.html

I have no clue what KC is. Maybe she is evil. When she goes to prison I think she needs to receive counseling. Perhaps she will be found to have a shred of conscience. Watching the videos tonight of the jailhouse conversations with her parents I thought since she couldn't look them in the eyes KC might have some real feelings and shame.

Furthermore, this trend for declaring people completely unable to be treated is dangerous. If we tell people that they are sociopaths and have no conscience they don't have much incentive to be good, do they? I'd rather we as a society keep trying to help people until the day they die.

I don't like KC so I have no real stake in this. This is my opinion and it is based on my feelings in general and on what I have read about this personality disorder.

 

[jujube]

I'm curious, I continue to read time and again people state that had KC gotten counseling, or some type of intervention at an earlier stage this probably would not have happened. Now, my question is does anyone have statistics on the efficacy of the mental health industry (counseling, drugs, etc..) on those afflicted with mental issues. Meaning, how often does it take? All of the time? None of the time? Somewhere in the middle?

I've known countless people who were brought to counselors, given anti-depressants, what-have-you and still turned out just awful. Didn't both of the boys in the Columbine shootings either take psych. drugs or frequented the family psych? I believe so.

Sometimes really bad people are bound to do really bad things.

You really can't lump all mental disorders together.

People with mood disorders-depression & bipolar disorder, are usually treated very successfully with therapy and medication.

These are much different from personality disorders, such as paranoid personality disorder, borderline personality or antisocial disorders. These are more difficult to treat and have usually been in place since at least adolescence.

 

[ma2patrick]

I disagree 100% respectfully!
It is never fair to any child to say that because of the way they were raised or by whom that they will not be productive citizens. Actually that is what makes a person like Casey. Just tell them they will never be right, or they will never lead a good life, or they will never be a productive citizen..makes tons of sense
Many adults were raised by killers, raised by drug lords, rapists and all sorts of illegal activity, emotional abuse, physical abuse and become better citizens than you or I could ever think of being.
Caylee did stand a chance, her chance was just flat stolen from her!

You know, I take your post to heart, and I find that I agree with you. I myself was raised by a sociopath, and have pushed aside in my brain and soul the hard work it took to become who I am. I should be ashamed to have written what I did, without honoring the work that I did on my own.

I'm sorry for what I posted, and I am grateful for your response.

Thank you.

 

[Marina2]

I'm curious, I continue to read time and again people state that had KC gotten counseling, or some type of intervention at an earlier stage this probably would not have happened. Now, my question is does anyone have statistics on the efficacy of the mental health industry (counseling, drugs, etc..) on those afflicted with mental issues. Meaning, how often does it take? All of the time? None of the time? Somewhere in the middle?

I've known countless people who were brought to counselors, given anti-depressants, what-have-you and still turned out just awful. Didn't both of the boys in the Columbine shootings either take psych. drugs or frequented the family psych? I believe so.

Sometimes really bad people are bound to do really bad things.

I learned in nursing school that personality disorders take a lifetime to develop and for this reason take a lifetime to treat. IOW, almost impossible to treat or cure. Treatment is best if the disorder is recognized early in ones life. Treatment consists of behavior modification rather than medication.

To me, psychiatric treatment can be a very grey area in the realm of medicine. Many misdiagnoses are made, trial and error prescribing, and just plain insurance fraud. On the other hand, there are those who can be helped greatly with the medication that is available for certain psychiatric conditions. For these people, psychiatric care can work miracles. One should be careful and not generalize when it comes to psychiatric issues. Statistics, imo, can be unreliable in evaluating mental health care as a whole. It's not all good, it's not all bad.

 

[mydailyopinions]

You know, I take your post to heart, and I find that I agree with you. I myself was raised by a sociopath, and have pushed aside in my brain and soul the hard work it took to become who I am. I should be ashamed to have written what I did, without honoring the work that I did on my own.

I'm sorry for what I posted, and I am grateful for your response.

Thank you.

I too am very proud of you for overcoming all that.. You don't have to be sorry for what you posted, I know how angry this case makes everyone, including myself.. You are a prime example of what can be overcome in this life!:blowkiss:

 

[Crafti]

I disagree 100% respectfully!
It is never fair to any child to say that because of the way they were raised or by whom that they will not be productive citizens. Actually that is what makes a person like Casey. Just tell them they will never be right, or they will never lead a good life, or they will never be a productive citizen..makes tons of sense
Many adults were raised by killers, raised by drug lords, rapists and all sorts of illegal activity, emotional abuse, physical abuse and become better citizens than you or I could ever think of being.
Caylee did stand a chance, her chance was just flat stolen from her!

I agree/disagree. I think it's harmful to a "normal" child's self-esteem to tell them they are bad and will never amount to anything etc. But I disagree that this is what causes a true sociopath. Nope, not true. Saying those things to a sociopath child wouldn't even phase them. THEY DO NOT CARE. My x was coddled, supposedly lived on his mothers hip, could do no wrong, yet still has antisocial personality. The one time he got a spanking as a child, for laughing and cutting up at a family funeral, he just got mad and called his mom a B**ch. He was in all kinds of trouble as a teenager, lied like crazy to his parents and was also a "fire bug", loved to play with fire. The family house burned down with this knowledge and they still think it was an accident. They thought I was the abuser for having him arrested after he beat me! This is what causes a sociopath, no matter what, they can do no wrong in their parents eyes and it's always minimized. They are not taught the consequences of their actions. I see exactly the same behaviors in the A family as in my x's.

 

[FightTheOstrich]

I learned in nursing school that personality disorders take a lifetime to develop and for this reason take a lifetime to treat. IOW, almost impossible to treat or cure. Treatment is best if the disorder is recognized early in ones life. Treatment consists of behavior modification rather than medication.

To me, psychiatric treatment can be a very grey area in the realm of medicine. Many misdiagnoses are made, trial and error prescribing, and just plain insurance fraud. On the other hand, there are those who can be helped greatly with the medication that is available for certain psychiatric conditions. For these people, psychiatric care can work miracles. One should be careful and not generalize when it comes to psychiatric issues. Statistics, imo, can be unreliable in evaluating mental health care as a whole. It's not all good, it's not all bad.

That's a very good answer and sort of what I was expecting to hear. Sort of why I asked it to begin with. There's such a taboo on both sides of the coin: 1. If someone is unfortunate enough to be afflicted, then it is improper and maybe even immoral to disparage 2. Although far more widely accepted today, mental illness is very much still a volatile subject, especially within the confines of the "family".

Then again, I don't think my question is all that difficult to answer. I actually happen to have a ballpark figure I know to be widely accepted as being within the norm. The reason I asked is when the poster asks about counseling, what in the world does that mean? Counseling isn't going to do any good whatsoever for somebody who is completely out of their head. For KC, I would imagine it would be like shooting a bb gun at a freight train. KC is way beyond the point of help with counseling if in fact she did do what many of us feel she did. She's more or less in "Crazy Land" and nothing that could be provided by the penal system could even hope to try and help.

 

[mydailyopinions]

I agree/disagree. I think it's harmful to a "normal" child's self-esteem to tell them they are bad and will never amount to anything etc. But I disagree that this is what causes a true sociopath. Nope, not true. Saying those things to a sociopath child wouldn't even phase them. THEY DO NOT CARE. My x was coddled, supposedly lived on his mothers hip, could do no wrong, yet still has antisocial personality. The one time he got a spanking as a child, for laughing and cutting up at a family funeral, he just got mad and called his mom a B**ch. He was in all kinds of trouble as a teenager, lied like crazy to his parents and was also a "fire bug", loved to play with fire. The family house burned down with this knowledge and they still think it was an accident. They thought I was the abuser for having him arrested after he beat me! This is what causes a sociopath, no matter what, they can do no wrong in their parents eyes and it's always minimized. They are not taught the consequences of their actions. I see exactly the same behaviors in the A family as in my x's.

Not all are the same either way you look at it.. Was your x 2 years old hearing he would never amount to anything, that he would never become a productive adult? Saying things to children at this age such as that is harmful to any child, no matter their personality..
We can agree to disagree..:blowkiss:

 

[Marina2]

Respectfully snipped:

Then again, I don't think my question is all that difficult to answer. I actually happen to have a ballpark figure I know to be widely accepted as being within the norm. The reason I asked is when the poster asks about counseling, what in the world does that mean? Counseling isn't going to do any good whatsoever for somebody who is completely out of their head. For KC, I would imagine it would be like shooting a bb gun at a freight train. KC is way beyond the point of help with counseling if in fact she did do what many of us feel she did. She's more or less in "Crazy Land" and nothing that could be provided by the penal system could even hope to try and help.

I agree with you, "...shooting a bb gun at a freight train". A perfect way to describe the effect counseling would have on KC. I'm having a hard time believing that some think counseling could help KC. She's gone way beyond having issues to pure, out and out evil. A truly evil person doesn't want help. They relish the way they are.
I posted earlier in this thread that KC should have been helped a long, long time before she got to the point of murdering her baby daughter (I'll go ahead and say it) and voted no to the counseling. Save it for someone who can benefit.

 

[elementary]

I voted "no". Counselling would only help her to learn how better to fool and use and abuse people.

I would like to see the perp breaking rocks, carrying them across the length of the yard, building a wall, and then taking it all down and carrying the rocks to the opposite side and building a wall; repeat ad infinitum. :behindbar At least it would keep her svelte.

 

[Crafti]

Not all are the same either way you look at it.. Was your x 2 years old hearing he would never amount to anything, that he would never become a productive adult? Saying things to children at this age such as that is harmful to any child, no matter their personality..
We can agree to disagree..:blowkiss:

Please don't get me wrong, I don't think children should be told they are bad in any way at all, especially that young. My only point was my opinion and experience with someone that does have this personality disorder and his family and that he was treated the exact opposite of "bad" to the extreme.

I believe we probably agree that children need boundaries and to learn that there are consequences to their mistakes and wrongdoing. In my x's case he didn't learn this and therefore never cared if he did something wrong or hurt someone. The only part of your statement that I disagreed with was "Just tell them they will never be right, or they will never lead a good life, or they will never be a productive citizen" and that "Actually that is what makes a person like Casey." (Your statement in blue).

No he wasn't hearing he would never amount to anything, that he would never become a productive adult at 2 years old. That was my point. He was told how perfect he was and that he could do no wrong. The world revolved around him and what he wanted - and he always got it no matter what the cost.

My point is counseling would not help someone without a conscious (sp?), it's not there to fix.