SIDEBAR #8- Arias/Alexander forum

[DairyGirl]

:seeya: Checking it now ... it got bleeped there too ... LOL !


Snippets from JVM show with Wendy Murphy on 5/24/13:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1305/24/ijvm.01.html


MURPHY: Well, so what. I mean 95 percent of the people in this country probably fit the definition of abuse under that standard. There`s a guy on death row in Arizona, a guy not a woman with implants, a guy who is mentally retarded, was sexually and repeatedly violated as a child. And then he became a killer and they didn`t care. You know why? Because that`s the way the law works.

We`re not interested in your abuse as a child or anything. We`re interested in whether the fact that you were abused cuts against the weight of reasons to put you to death.

Look, my feeling is the only reason anybody voted to spare her life is because she`s cute, she`s white and because she talked about sex. There`s a lot of guys on the jury, eight of them and you`re telling me they weren`t fantasizing a little bit while she was talking about (EXPLETIVE DELETED) --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy.

MURPHY: --- of course, they were. It`s hard to kill somebody you`re sexually fantasizing about. The prosecutor will think about that the next time and --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on, hold on. Did you just -- no way. Wait -- let`s rewind that. We`re rewinding that. Come on, now.


:facepalm:

I'm guessing it had something to do with anal sex. Just a wild guess.

 

[TexMex]

Two things I will never understand as mitigators.
1) Age. Does this mean if you are older, your mind can premeditate better than Jodi's? Doubt it. Evil comes in all age groups.

2) no prior convictions? She killed him three different ways. So maybe if she had just been caught stealing a bag of chips, they could have believed she is evil?

And Travis never abused her. She was the abuser.

Those just aren't mitigating factors.

I would respect the juror who says he or she just couldn't sentence someone to death, but not someone who says Jodi didn't deserve death based on a mitigating factor. JMO.

Well said. Plus Martinez pretty much proved she was a stalker/tire slasher who after being called out as a sociopath, stole a firearm to kill her victim

 

[ShadyLady]

Last Night:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GztV3yWNJJw"]5th Dimension - (Last Night) I Didn't Get To Sleep At All (Lyrics) - YouTube[/ame]

Came here for JA's case, am staying for the music.

And maybe some new friends.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqpn2oyEaX8&list=FLTpRqy4cQF0YhTTFlaTy0BQ"]MC Hammer - U can't touch this 1990 - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Emmi]

That is the point. It is near impossible to sway someone on an issue that is based on your own personal convictions.

They did discuss their feelings. It appears each juror spoke about what their vote was and WHY. The why would have been whatever was swaying them to vote their way ie: I feel she was abused. I think she is evil. etc. This would likely (as I wasn't there I can't say or sure) have led to others saying: I don't agree. I don't feel that is important. etc.

Deliberation does NOT mean debate. It means careful consideration and discussion. Actually, I will just post the definition:

de·lib·er·a·tion (d-lb-rshn)
n.
1. The act or process of deliberating.
2. deliberations Discussion and consideration of all sides of an issue: the deliberations of a jury.
3. Thoughtfulness in decision or action

I really feel the understanding that this is NOT an issue decided on facts, but on each juror's own weighing of the facts, mitigators and personal values would help many who are so angry about the outcome.
ALL of us were disappointed. Being disappointed does not equal being angry with the juror for me.
IMO

This is a well-thought-out and reasonable post. I can't imagine why anyone would call it "offensive."

(Though, I want to point out that not "ALL" of us were disappointed. Anti-death penalty people, including me, were not disappointed at all.)

 

[JSR]

He is very hostile and that seems strange to me.

Very hostile and rather condescending.

And based off his comments I gather he did not think highly of Travis and the names he called Jodi. He never referred to Travis by his name only "him". He said almost glowing things about Jodi (that very oddly mirrored DB's comments in his interview) And the way he said he "firmly" believed Jodi was mentally, emotionally and verbally abused.

 

[sacrablue]

I'm guessing it had something to do with anal sex. Just a wild guess.

Oh yea, that is all I can think about is what tree I am going to tie my wife around for our next little fling. You got to be kidding.

 

[elementary]

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

Do you have dictionary citations for the word "deliberate" that are different from the one I cited? Specifically any that use the word "sway?"

A jury is a different animal. Deliberations infer so much more. There are group dynamics involved, not merely a definition. Deliberations involve trying to come to a unanimity, and that has to include trying to persuade/convince others to change their vote through reason and appeal to whatever. "Sway", "persuade", you say 'tomato', I say 'tomahto'.

 

[aa9511]

LOL!!!!

Mike Galanos: "Alright, we have Beyonce getting slapped in the butt....."

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[STEADFAST]

I have to disagree. Travis was enraged alright, he was livid, but he was doing more than telling it like it is. His response to her was not merely harsh but vitriolic, and the words and expressions he used were designed and intended to objectify, dehumanize and annihilate.

Vitriol like that cannot be taken out of context; its very source is toxic; its voice betrays someone very at home, learned, and practised with the language of hatred and abuse. It has a second-nature quality--it flows. This kind of abuse may need a trigger, but it is not a one-off, born-full-grown kind of thing.

I tend to disagree, too, that he intended, at the moment of his abusive tirade, to get her out of his life once and for all. He was dismissing her as a human being and, at the same time, paradoxically and actively engaging her. Neither of them were just going to walk away.

There is no evidence at all that Travis was "at home" and "practiced" in the language of hatred and abuse. He didn't even use this language to Jodi except on a couple of occasions out of thousands of messages, and no one else EVER heard such language out of him. IMO, it makes the most sense to judge him by the many, many proofs and testimonies that he was not an abusive man than to guess, imagine, hypothesize or project abuse with no support at all.

It's true that the vitriol cannot be taken out of context, and Jodi's actions that we know of were a sufficient cause for strong vitriol; no telling how despicable her instigating action was. Not only that, but none of his words to her even came close to being as bad as calling her a butcher of a living human, which is what she is.

 

[aa9511]

Very hostile and rather condescending.

And based off his comments I gather he did not think highly of Travis and the names he called Jodi. He never referred to Travis by his name only "him". He said almost glowing things about Jodi (that very oddly mirrored DB's comments in his interview) And the way he said he "firmly" believed Jodi was mentally, emotionally and verbally abused.

BBM

Yes, exactly - that is EXACTLY the vibe I got from him. Even when he was talking about he felt bad for Travis' family...that was only after asked specifically by the reporter what he would say to the Alexander family. I never saw anything on his face which suggested he felt real sorrow and sympathy for them...

The more I think about it, the angrier I get.....

 

[deedee21]

He is very hostile and that seems strange to me.

Right. Theres reasons and excuses. The excuses are masking the reason. A smoke screen. His hostility confirms it for me.

 

[LindaFaye]

I thought when a trail was over nothing could be changed with the out come of it
I'm all mixed up what's going on at this time ?

 

[SusieD]

Very hostile and rather condescending.

And based off his comments I gather he did not think highly of Travis and the names he called Jodi. He never referred to Travis by his name only "him". He said almost glowing things about Jodi (that very oddly mirrored DB's comments in his interview) And the way he said he "firmly" believed Jodi was mentally, emotionally and verbally abused.

All these comments are interesting considering it was his peers on the jury who elected him

 

[MidwestMama]

Okay, why is this getting personal here? I am not understanding. I find it offensive.

I'm going from logic. You present the facts to others who may have a different POV. I have not read anything that convinces me that there was much in the way of hammering it out from all sides in a persuasive manner. Geez, they were deadlocked within 2 hours!

And, YES, it is an issue decided on the facts to some extent- mitigating factors weighed against aggravating factors. Two out of the 3 factors you suggested are all about reason and logic. Moreover, conscience, to me has way more to do with doing the right thing than about life or death. I wish that all the factors that you suggest actually were in play. But we really don't know, do we?

With all due respect, I don't find a selective dictionary definition of 'deliberation' persuasive.

I wasn't trying to get "personal". Only stating my opinion.

What logic are you using? That because they didn't DEBATE it wasn't a deliberation? That isn't logical. It is your opinion. The definition itself shows debate is not necessary to deliberate. You can't MAKE someone feel the same way you do, no matter how long you "hammer" it out. You continue to insist that no debating happened therefore no deliberation happened.
I showed you that even in the actual definition of deliberation, there is no mention of debate. It states conversation, discussion. The juror on Dr Drew stated they did discuss it.
If you still feel that they did not deliberate and did not do their job, you are entitled to your opinion. I have no stake in trying to sway you.
It just seems opposite what a definition of deliberation actually is.
I was actually trying to help you release your anger or frustration over the situation. I will stop trying and you feel however you want to feel.
Maybe THIS is what happened in the jury room? Some give reasons they feel one way (definition of deliberation), the other doesn't feel that reason is valid. No matter how much one try to make the other see their point of view, no resolution, therefore: hung jury.

 

[pinkie60]

I swear I'm not stalking bettybaby but a couple of things she posted in the other thread resonated with me.



Agree 100%. I thought the same thing about her feverish little brain spinning around and telling her to say something that means "I could lie right now and say yes but since you all think I'm a shameless liar, I'm going to just feign candidness so you'll see I don't really lie ALL the time."

Like the Terminator in the first movie with the computerized visual list of "appropriate responses" to human situations. lol



Font increased and bold added by me.

Jeesh. I never, ever thought of that! Each time she was asked what she would have done differently, she never says, "I would never have gone to Mesa that night ..." or "I would have gotten myself out of the house right away ..."

Instead she says, "I would have turned the car around and gone straight to the Mesa police." You're right. No matter what, her intent was for Travis to die that night and there is nothing she can do to prevent that from seeping out.

Wow. Never made that connection before and it blows my mind all over again at her cold intent.

just want to add, she told the jury she will never have children or be a mother "because of her poor choices" avoiding admitting her crime.

 

[LindaFaye]

JA does not need children just of the thought she might do to a child makes me sick to my stomach

 

[deedee21]

just want to add, she told the jury she will never have children or be a mother "because of her poor choices" avoiding admitting her crime.

Thank God she will never have kids. I dont think they would be safe around her.

 

[SusieD]

A jury is a different animal. Deliberations infer so much more. There are group dynamics involved, not merely a definition. Deliberations involve trying to come to a unanimity, and that has to include trying to persuade/convince others to change their vote through reason and appeal to whatever. "Sway", "persuade", you say 'tomato', I say 'tomahto'.

Actually you posted you own "definiton" of deliberation and it was wrong, so I provide a citation to the correct one, becasue your post was reliant on an incorrect definition. Others also defined the word,

Words can be very specific and you're free to define your own but when you start telling people their Webster's defrinitions are WRONG and you are right, you're in a pretty untenable situation. IMO

It's not tomato/tomatoh, it's the correct defintion vs the made up one.

done on this, I kew what deliberation meant before I looked it up for you. To no avail.

 

[MidwestMama]

Last Night:

5th Dimension - (Last Night) I Didn't Get To Sleep At All (Lyrics) - YouTube

Came here for JA's case, am staying for the music.

And maybe some new friends.

MC Hammer - U can't touch this 1990 - YouTube

LOVE that song by the 5th Dimension. THANKS!

 

[Boodles]

FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. — A Cumberland County jury deliberated less than 40 minutes Wednesday before deciding that Mario Andrette McNeill should die for the November 2009 death of 5-year-old Shaniya Davis.

http://www.wral.com/jury-hands-down-death-sentence-for-shaniya-davis-murder/12493723/

This jury took 40 minutes to decide on the death penalty today.

Justice? It sure doesn't feel like it to me. Nothing can fix the horror and betrayal that was committed against this innocent child. It feels empty and hollow and beyond sad. That said, I am grateful for the jury's decisions. I am glad he will be punished for this crime, but there is no "winning."

And how long before the appeals and allegations of "he got the DP unfairly because he's black" allegations begin? Ten...nine...eight...

I just never ever want to see his face or hear his name again.