Since Sandy Hook, 1,000 kids under age 12 have died from guns

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I am not sure how banning guns will stop the killing of others, even if they could be banned.

There are still plenty of sharp knives around - motor vehicles - hammers - that cast iron skillet I just made a batch of delicious pancakes in for Christmas morning breakfast.......not to mention online recipes for homemade bombs.

A sharp knife or a hammer is used in far fewer mass killings than a firearm. Heck, delicious pancakes loaded with sweet, delicious maple syrup and butter could kill someone.

A firearm is designed to kill. That’s it’s purpose. One shot. That’s all it takes. Why is that fact so challenging for some people to grasp?

Firearms are, by definition, deadly weapons. Regardless of who handles them, the definition doesn’t change.
 
You aren't supposed to consider children riddled with bullet holes, you are supposed to be blinded by irrational fear into being a good patriot. You can't do God's holy work of spreading Democracy by force without some hot steel in your hands. You and your personal weapons stockpile are the only thing protecting your kids from an unjust government and if more kids have to be shot daily than policemen, those are just extenuating circumstances. There is no solution that doesn't undermine the very core fabric of what makes this the greatest nation in the world and to even suggest otherwise is proof you don't deserve to live here.

What I wonder is how does the manager at a munitions plan how many bullets to make next month. If they aren't flying, folks aren't buying. Ah, but I've gone too far. Watch enough news and it becomes obvious that child victims of gun violence is not even worthy of being part of the national debate.
 
Thinking smoking woud not be allowed in stores, hospitals, and elevators seemed impossible a few years ago. Sometimes common sense prevails.

Even so I doubt there will be any real movement on firearms control in my lifetime. There's probably more chance of getting movement on control of dangerous dog breeds, eg specified breeds to be muzzled when in public and/or when off a fixed chain.
 
A sharp knife or a hammer is used in far fewer mass killings than a firearm. Heck, delicious pancakes loaded with sweet, delicious maple syrup and butter could kill someone.

It seems they already are, or at least sugar-laced foods are. Over the past year or so I've been listening to the lectures on YouTube by Dr Robert Lustig on the health catastrophe caused by sugar in the US. In the most recent one I've watched he reported that there are now the first reports from the East Coast of children suffering cirrhosis of the liver due to sugar in their diets.

Even toddlers are now showing the first signs of heart disease due to their diet.
 
What killed more toddlers in the last five years? Twinkies, or guns?
 
EuTuCroquet.................could I take a guess and say - their parents.
Perhaps inadequate diet - that may mean twinkies.
I doubt guns have killed more toddlers.

I know what we are really discussing is school massacres, any massacre regardless of the type of weapon is a catastrophe. It is just that sometimes children manage to get hold of their parents guns and stage a massacre. (The Columbine School massacre). Adam Lanza wasn't a child at age 20 but I suppose that is debatable.
 
What killed more toddlers in the last five years? Twinkies, or guns?

You're right - I doubt twinkies have killed many toddlers who haven't choked on them.

It's what a diet unremittingly high in sugar, especially fructose, does to children throughout childhood. The damage is cumulative and cirrhosis is incurable except by liver transplant. I'm guessing that within a decade or so we are going to start to see teens and young adults dying of cirrhosis and liver failure due purely to diet.
 
Compelling reporting by The Atlantic about how gun violence is vastly misunderstood and under-reported in America. Just ... wow. This is eye-opening. (Lots more at the link.)

Americans Don't Really Understand Gun Violence
Why? Because there's very little known about the thousands of victims who survive deadly shootings. (bbm)

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...ng-newtown-las-vegas/548372/?utm_source=atltw

Other links/info:

• Almost 4,000 children age 18 or younger were killed or injured by guns in 2017.

• There have been 417 mass shootings so far in 2017. Many of the victims were children.

• There are approximately 33,000 guns deaths each year; about two-thirds are suicides.

• Only 2,000 shooting deaths or injuries so far this year were caused by "defensive use."


From The Antlantic's story:

The roots of the gun-research problem go back nearly 100 years. In 1929, when federal law-enforcement officials unveiled the country’s first standardized method of tracking crimes, they divided assaults into just two categories in the inaugural Uniform Crime Reporting Handbook: simple (usually a misdemeanor) and aggravated (often a felony).

Serious urban crime plagued cities, but it was a wholly different time. On the one hand, it was the year of the Saint Valentine’s Day Massacre in Chicago, when gangsters associated with Al Capone killed seven men, five of whom were members of a rival gang; on the other hand, the UCR handbook explained that shooting at or into trains should not count as a violent crime because “they are usually offenses of malicious mischief by children.”

Because of the widespread adoption of the UCR’s criteria, police departments to this day fail to report shootings as separate, countable crime statistics; instead, an unknown number of shootings are lumped in with all the other aggravated assaults, like stabbings, pool-cue beatings, or attacks with a bat.

“The shooting data has been problematic from the start, and that’s because of this aggravated-assault category,” Lauritsen said. “That legacy has been around for 90 years.”

(snip)

The case information collected by hospitals is not typically coded for any connections to the case information collected by law enforcement, so it’s almost impossible to match victims to any arrested perpetrators or seized firearms, which would yield a trove of useful data—criminal histories, relationships between victims and shooters, socioeconomic status, weapon types. Some police departments do carefully track shootings, but most keep that data internal.

(snip)

But other cities can’t tell you how many people are shot in their own jurisdictions, said David Kennedy, the director of the National Network for Safe Communities at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. That includes many of the biggest cities in the country.
 
I realize we're getting a off-topic, so I'll just keep it short.

I absolutely agree — it's part of what's driving obesity rates, diabetes, some cancers, heart disease, etc. I'm not sure scientists/health care professionals yet understand the full magnitude or scope the "Big Sugar" lobby's influence has had on generations of Americans.

You're right - I doubt twinkies have killed many toddlers who haven't choked on them.

It's what a diet unremittingly high in sugar, especially fructose, does to children throughout childhood. The damage is cumulative and cirrhosis is incurable except by liver transplant. I'm guessing that within a decade or so we are going to start to see teens and young adults dying of cirrhosis and liver failure due purely to diet.
 
rs/bbm

To my understanding, the thread is about how gun violence impacts children and teens, not how many of them commit mass shootings?

I know what we are really discussing is school massacres, any massacre regardless of the type of weapon is a catastrophe. It is just that sometimes children manage to get hold of their parents guns and stage a massacre. (The Columbine School mas sacre). Adam Lanza wasn't a child at age 20 but I suppose that is debatable.



From the Los Angeles Times:
But the aftermath of a mass shooting does not appear to be very good for Americans’ safety. New research suggests that the increased availability of firearms after a mass shooting exacts a deadly toll of its own. That toll falls heavily on children, according to the study, which links the spike in gun sales following a mass shooting with an increase in fatal accidents involving firearms.


From the Gun Violence Archive (2017 numbers):
The state with the greatest number of children injured and killed by gun violence is Texas, at 70 injured and 54 killed. In Texas, of 51 separate incidents, one included the Nov. 5, 2017, mass shooting at a Sutherland church. This incident killed 27 children and injured 20.

From The Guardian:
Sandy Hook has become synonymous with a cynicism about America’s escalating gun violence problem; if Americans could not pass stricter gun laws after 20 children were shot dead in their elementary school classrooms, then they would never act.
 
The inability or refusal to accept the statistics on children being shot annually in the US is interesting imo, especially when stating a comparison to twinkies/sugar is part of the gun equation rather than twinkies/sugar was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.

A visual that would be fascinating to me is, what space would be needed to hold all the guns available in the US? For example, if all the guns were stacked 4 or 5 feet high (so that the average adult could see over the top of the stack and the full expanse) what would the width and the length be?

Would they cover the size of a small state? A small country? An ocean? Surely some entity with stats etc could calculate this? Maybe the NRA already knows the answer?
 
It's not exactly what you were asking for, but it's telling nonetheless.

America's gun culture in 10 charts (BBC)
Here's one of the 10 charts:
attachment.php


How US gun culture compares with the world in 5 charts
A chart from that story:
attachment.php


7 Graphics Cast Light On America’s Gun Problem (from HuffPo)
Here's one graphic:
attachment.php


The inability or refusal to accept the statistics on children being shot annually in the US is interesting imo, especially when stating a comparison to twinkies/sugar is part of the gun equation rather than twinkies/sugar was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.

A visual that would be fascinating to me is, what space would be needed to hold all the guns available in the US? For example, if all the guns were stacked 4 or 5 feet high (so that the average adult could see over the top of the stack and the full expanse) what would the width and the length be?

Would they cover the size of a small state? A small country? An ocean? Surely some entity with stats etc could calculate this? Maybe the NRA already knows the answer?
 

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Thank-you for the charts EuTuCroquet? Was very surprised Canada's homicide rate is 30.5% with the use of guns, but the surprise quickly wore off with the realization those guns could very well be crossing from our border to the south. Must write my PM regarding some sort of wall to stop this.

So the US owns about 312 million guns. That's a good start as to how much space one needs to stack those guns.
 
For some much needed perspective here, 1000 kids have died from gun shots in 5 years-- that's an average of 200 per year. That is far too many, I agree. Preventable deaths. We should always put efforts toward lowering preventable deaths, right?

So let's compare those depressing statistics to some others, on an annual basis. More preventable child deaths.

In the United States EACH YEAR an average of:

37 children die in hot car related deaths

1600 die in car crashes

3536 die in fatal unintentional drownings

3 million are victims of child abuse, and 5 children PER DAY die from injuries sustained from child abuse

2300 kids under age 15 die from household injuries

Gun accidents and related "social" gun crimes and random "social" gun violence is **not** a major killer of children annually in the U.S. Not even close.

Shall we ban children riding in cars? Eight times the number of kids killed from gunshots are killed in cars. Cars are clearly very dangerous for children.

Ban bathtubs, buckets, pools, boats, and hot tubs? Shall we ban children from sources of water immersion? Seventeen times the number of kids killed from gunshots are killed by accidental drownings EVERY year. Water is clearly VERY hazardous and dangerous for children.

Ban electrical extension cords?

Can we ban children from living in crime and violence ridden areas?

How about we ban "bad" people with "bad" habits, "bad" behavior, and "bad" predictive factors for child abuse from being around children, or breeding? Can we do that? Gee, I sure wish we could, because that would go a LONG way to keeping kids well cared for and alive to become adults.

Too bad we can't require a LICENSE and a BACKGROUND CHECK as a requirement for breeding, eh? I don't think too many Americans would be agreeable to that, even to save thousands of kids every year.

*The above numbers are easily searched and verified-- links not included.
 
Sadly, I don't think it will ever change, it's far too late and homicides and mass shootings will continue. There will be another school shooting at some point and more innocent little children will die. That said, if I lived in America and had a gun I wouldn't want to give it up knowing every other person had one so I do understand the stalemate catch 22 situation you are in.

The stats on gun murders in comparison with other Westernised countries are shocking, really:

Gun-murders.gif
 
For some much needed perspective here, 1000 kids have died from gun shots in 5 years-- that's an average of 200 per year. That is far too many, I agree. Preventable deaths. We should always put efforts toward lowering preventable deaths, right?

So let's compare those depressing statistics to some others, on an annual basis. More preventable child deaths.

In the United States EACH YEAR an average of:

37 children die in hot car related deaths

1600 die in car crashes

3536 die in fatal unintentional drownings

3 million are victims of child abuse, and 5 children PER DAY die from injuries sustained from child abuse

2300 kids under age 15 die from household injuries

Gun accidents and related "social" gun crimes and random "social" gun violence is **not** a major killer of children annually in the U.S. Not even close.

Shall we ban children riding in cars? Eight times the number of kids killed from gunshots are killed in cars. Cars are clearly very dangerous for children.

Ban bathtubs, buckets, pools, boats, and hot tubs? Shall we ban children from sources of water immersion? Seventeen times the number of kids killed from gunshots are killed by accidental drownings EVERY year. Water is clearly VERY hazardous and dangerous for children.

Ban electrical extension cords?

Can we ban children from living in crime and violence ridden areas?

How about we ban "bad" people with "bad" habits, "bad" behavior, and "bad" predictive factors for child abuse from being around children, or breeding? Can we do that? Gee, I sure wish we could, because that would go a LONG way to keeping kids well cared for and alive to become adults.

Too bad we can't require a LICENSE and a BACKGROUND CHECK as a requirement for breeding, eh? I don't think too many Americans would be agreeable to that, even to save thousands of kids every year.

*The above numbers are easily searched and verified-- links not included.

KZ, it seems like you are an advocate of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for your actions. If so, count me in. I am for people taking responsibility for their decisions. That is certainly more important than some government mandate to seize inanimate objects. You can take the guns away, and still have ""bad" people with "bad" habits, "bad" behavior...." For me, that is more of the problem than some object. We need RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE whether guns exist or not, and we are all better off.
 
For some much needed perspective here, 1000 kids have died from gun shots in 5 years-- that's an average of 200 per year. That is far too many, I agree. Preventable deaths. We should always put efforts toward lowering preventable deaths, right?

So let's compare those depressing statistics to some others, on an annual basis. More preventable child deaths.

In the United States EACH YEAR an average of:

37 children die in hot car related deaths

1600 die in car crashes

3536 die in fatal unintentional drownings

3 million are victims of child abuse, and 5 children PER DAY die from injuries sustained from child abuse

2300 kids under age 15 die from household injuries

Gun accidents and related "social" gun crimes and random "social" gun violence is **not** a major killer of children annually in the U.S. Not even close.

Shall we ban children riding in cars? Eight times the number of kids killed from gunshots are killed in cars. Cars are clearly very dangerous for children.

Ban bathtubs, buckets, pools, boats, and hot tubs? Shall we ban children from sources of water immersion? Seventeen times the number of kids killed from gunshots are killed by accidental drownings EVERY year. Water is clearly VERY hazardous and dangerous for children.

Ban electrical extension cords?

Can we ban children from living in crime and violence ridden areas?

How about we ban "bad" people with "bad" habits, "bad" behavior, and "bad" predictive factors for child abuse from being around children, or breeding? Can we do that? Gee, I sure wish we could, because that would go a LONG way to keeping kids well cared for and alive to become adults.

Too bad we can't require a LICENSE and a BACKGROUND CHECK as a requirement for breeding, eh? I don't think too many Americans would be agreeable to that, even to save thousands of kids every year.

*The above numbers are easily searched and verified-- links not included.

Seriously? This response is about as relevant as the twinkies to guns comparison imo. Many child deaths are preventable, so the argument here is guns make no difference in the grand scheme of life?

The thread is about guns killing children - too much for many adult Americans to grasp and come to grips with imo. The second amendment might be the ultimate freedom statement to some US adults, but kids don't have control over adults forcing this situation on them where utter carelessness and disregard for human life is concerned - it makes the adults look, well you know, kinda blind.

Have been working on the math to determine the space that would be occupied if all 312 million guns currently in the US were stacked together (does the US have 312 million children at this time?). According to a guy I know, it seems they would fill 136 football fields if stacked 4 feet high. Doubling checking that though - seems a little shy on space imo.

In the meantime, how many children will die or be injured from a gunshot wound? How many will die or be injured in a car accident in the same time frame?
 
Sadly, I don't think it will ever change, it's far too late and homicides and mass shootings will continue. There will be another school shooting at some point and more innocent little children will die. That said, if I lived in America and had a gun I wouldn't want to give it up knowing every other person had one so I do understand the stalemate catch 22 situation you are in.

The stats on gun murders in comparison with other Westernised countries are shocking, really:

attachment.php

I thank you for posting this but none of those other countries started out by destroying a culture with slavery.
 
I thank you for posting this but none of those other countries started out by destroying a culture with slavery.
Australia was founded as a penal colony, filled it with convicts (including children) from the UK, often for such basic crimes as stealing food because they were starving. The British Government needed a labour force to build the penal colony - while not officially called slave labour, it was essentially the same thing.... and don't even get me started on what happened to the First Australians and the attempts to destroy their culture.

Even if you want to run with slavery as an explanation, what can be done about it now? What needs to change? How can we change it? How do we stop preventable deaths of children? Apathy is perhaps the biggest killer of children... too hard, can't change, and on and on. Of course nothing will change if people don't push for change and become the strongest voice - that's how most social change happens.
 

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