Sixteen years... back to the basics
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otg
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SK, I don't think there's a transcript, but you can still listen to it @ http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleuths/2012/12/24/websleuths-radio
Nehemiah
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There is a thread from 2005 about the photos found in the basement laundry room that some might enjoy reading:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27176&highlight=photos+in+the+basement
otg
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Good news, SK! The indispensable -- the one and only -- cynic has done exactly what you asked about (not word for word, but enough to get the main parts of the broadcast). It starts [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?p=193683#post193683"]here[/ame], at post #21, and then there's more discussion about it following. :great:
(As always, great job, cynic!)
otg
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Nehemiah, OT, but what happened at FFJ that so many of the posters on that thread have been banned? I've noticed it before on other older threads, and was just wondering. Some kind of purge?
:waitasec:
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?
ksprincess
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I haven't posted or read much about JBR on websleuths, but was living near Boulder at the time and have always had a lot of interest in her case. A friend of mines family lived right down the street from the Ramsey's although did not know them. To this day I cannot visit Boulder without driving past the Ramseys former home. I always always struggle with the question of why they didn't remove her body from the home that night. It just doesn't make any sense to me, since they had all night to do it. Why write a gake ransom note? Why not just get her body out of the house and then call 911 and say she is missing from her room? There are so many places nearby that they could have put her to detract attention away from them and their home. Chataqua park is about a half mile from their home, they could have walked or driven her there. Anyone have any reasons why they left her in the house?
belimom
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bbm
I think it points to more of an RDI than IDI:
1) they wanted to have a proper burial and not have her dumped somewhere, laying in the cold, or
2) they did not want neighbors to see them leaving/returning in the middle of the night (it's one thing for neighbors to say they didn't hear/see anything when the R's claimed that intruders came in, but it's another thing for a neighbor to say something like 'I heard a car and looked out and saw JR driving away with the lights out at 3:00am' or 'I saw someone carry a large bundle out and put it in the trunk'), or
3) they worried about forensic testing in their vehicles, or
4) cleaning up after everything took longer than they thought, and they feared folks may be stirring if they finished up around 4:30 or 5:00am, or
5) AND... there's a new thought I had: they thought LE would come and take statements, wait for the ransom call, then leave them alone -- at which time they could move the body along with things they were taking to Michigan or just throwing away Christmas trash, etc. But LE hung around longer than they thought and JR got antsy. I think they had Plan A (let LE leave then remove the body) and then Plan B ('discover' the body if LE never leaves).
Another question I have: they were going to MI for a few days before going on a Disney cruise. Did anyone not question why JR then told LE later that day that he had to go to Atlanta?!? What happened to MI? I think JR was considering jumping ship, to be honest.
One word, IMO: Patsy.
Elements of nature taking its toll (snow, rain, etc.) ... the possibility of animals getting to her. Who knows how long it would have taken for LE to find her in some random park. That being said, with all of the staging that was done I imagine JR suggesting to dump the body but I just couldn't picture Patsy agreeing with that. Accident or not, Patsy would not allow that little girl to be lying dead in some park. JMO though.
I'm remembering a quote from PR where she mentioned JR coming up from the basement. If he went down there, why didn't he see JB? Did he find her and move her? maybe she had been hidden for a later disposal, but for some reason, was moved? Also, there's the time lapse between the head bash and strangulation to consider. If the perp thought JB was dead , it may have been the plan to dump he after the staging, (note etc), was taken care of. Once the perp realized that JB was still alive though, the original plan had to be ditched...not enough time.
The quote you are referring to was Patsy speaking to LE. Keep in mind that BOTH parents maintain that the last time they saw JB was when they put her to bed and that they did not see her again until JR found her at 1:30 PM and she was placed under the Christmas tree.
In this conversation, Patsy kind of slipped up a bit- clearly stating that she "heard John screaming as he came up from the basement" when according to them he had NEVER GONE to the basement -until the next morning after police were already called to the house.
I think we can understand from her comment that after the head blow and JB's apparent death, this refers to JR and Patsy both screaming as they staged the body in the basement OR saw her in the basement after she had been killed/rendered unconscious by one of the other residents in the home that night. Possibilities? BR, JAR, BR & JAR, a friend of one of theirs (possibly someone going on the trip with them? ) and any combination of these.
Patsy also made suspicious statements about the red ink heart in JB's palm. At first she denied even knowing about it- then she claimed that it was a "pretty good little heart" implying that she had, in fact, seen it- then she backtracked after she realized what she said and claimed that she probably only remembered reading about it. Yet- she claimed NOT to have read the autopsy report, which is the only place this information was printed at that time. The heart shows up in crime scene/autopsy photos, but they claimed to never have seen/read them. Can't blame them here. I can't think of ANY parent of a dead child, regardless of the circumstance of death, who would look at autopsy photos or reports. But their comments prove that they had knowledge of the whereabouts of the body (the basement) and things about the body (the red ink heart in the palm of her hand) that would not have had UNLESS they saw her before that police arrived that morning. JB was covered by an afghan by the time Patsy "publicly" saw her in the living room under the tree.
Of course, as was usual when police questioned the Rs, any statement like this that clearly contradicts their version of events is simply ignored and allowed to pass without further probing.
Alchemist
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Forgive me if I bounce around too much. I have a lot of stuff on my mind about this case and want to talk about it.
Alegedly, Jon Benet was asked if she had talked to Santa. She replied that she had seen him at the party the at their house. Then she said that Santa was going to pay a special visit to her Christmas night. I don't believe that it was neccesarily Santa who told her this. It had to be some one at the party though. Now if this had something to do with the murder, I would like a list of everyone who stepped foot in that house. It doesn't make sense that the perp would tell her that though.
I tend to feel that the murder was the end of the crime. Looking at the clues from a few days before doesn't seem like its enough. I would like to know exactly what JR did at access graphics. Were there any backroom dealings, any type of doing anything illegal and getting away with it because of the company who bought access graphics? What I mean is doing things to get contracts or maybe even for personal gain. I think he was doing something, The extent I have no idea.
I have to stop here but i will be back. I have a lot more to talk about
Alegedly, Jon Benet was asked if she had talked to Santa. She replied that she had seen him at the party the at their house. Then she said that Santa was going to pay a special visit to her Christmas night. I don't believe that it was neccesarily Santa who told her this. It had to be some one at the party though. Now if this had something to do with the murder, I would like a list of everyone who stepped foot in that house. It doesn't make sense that the perp would tell her that though.
I tend to feel that the murder was the end of the crime. Looking at the clues from a few days before doesn't seem like its enough. I would like to know exactly what JR did at access graphics. Were there any backroom dealings, any type of doing anything illegal and getting away with it because of the company who bought access graphics? What I mean is doing things to get contracts or maybe even for personal gain. I think he was doing something, The extent I have no idea.
I have to stop here but i will be back. I have a lot more to talk about
JB told one of her little friends that she was going to get a special visit from Santa after Christmas. The friend's mother told Det. Arndt. Nothing much was made of it. There was supposedly a torn-up note from Santa Bill in a wastebasket in JB's room. No one seemed to make a big deal of this either. It was Patsy who found that torn note- and I don't believe it was take into evidence. It may not have even existed- this was at a time when Santa Bill was one of the many people the Rs tried to pin this on. He was completely cleared by police and NO evidence links him to the crime. He passed away a few years ago, as did his wife.
People like JR always have business rivals. There are always dirty deals. It rarely ends in a fake kidnapping/staged murder. This was no business vendetta.
I feel the same thing. I can't imagine Santa Bill, in his delicate medical condition that year, could have climbed in that grated window, dressed in his Santa suit, to molest and kill her. His DNA was found NOWHERE at that house. And JB would have recognized her father dressed in that suit also.
I think JB was told that she'd have another visit from Santa (and more presents) when they got to Charlevoix. Her older siblings would certainly have been bringing gifts for her and BR.
Alchemist
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What I was thinking is that Lockheed deals in military stuff, ( I think anyway, correct me if I am wrong) And maybe there was some dealings on an international level with people who aren't very nice. People who wouldn't hesitate to behead or torture people.
Here is something I have been thinking about. The brutality of the murder gives me the gut feeling that the parents couldn't have done it. However I believe they are involved at least to the point that they know who did it and have a reason not to tell.
What do you guys think about someone having gone there with the intent to murder her; that would explain a head bash and a garote;and ten the kidnapping was just part of the coverup.
Lockheed does deal with defense contractors, but there are much bigger "fat cats" than JR in the mix. If those kinds of people wanted to behead her, they would have. This is something the parents couldn't bring themselves to do.
I obviously disagree with your theory about the perp. This murder is less brutal than it could have been. The head bash was likely done spontaneously to shut her up, and the strangulation - though fatal- was not as violent as it could have been.
Keep in mind there WAS no kidnapping. She never left the house. The kidnapping was an invention devised by the parents for the express purpose of providing a plausible story about why their daughter was dead. Her death came first, then a cover up was devised to explain it. That was simple. Start with an already dead child, then hide her, write a ransom note to day that if you call police or talk to anyone, they'll kill her. So. all you have to do then is call police and tell every friend you have.
I agree with you in that I too cannot see the parents killing their daughter in such a brutal fashion. And I also agree that they do know who did it and have a reason not to tell. And no, I am not talking about Burke. I am talking about people completly outside of the family.
IMO the R's never tried to help LE catch the killer of their daughter. All they did was point to an unknown intruder, and they knew that was not true. In other words, as bad as it was that their daughter was dead, something worse could happen. Something much worse. The R's knew this and were afraid of it. This is why they will never talk.
I agree that there was never a kidnapping attempt, and the ransom note was just an afterthought to try to support IDI, but I do not believe the R's brutally killed their own daughter like that. It may be that someone was sent to the house to kill her to punish JR for something. I have considered this possibility before but never put it into writing, but think about this scenario: JR is dealing with people who are not nice as part of his business. His business dealings are clearly illegal but very profitable for both him and his company. He has somehow displeased the people he is dealing with and they are threatening to hurt him. They want to hurt him in the worst possible way, without killing him. So they send someone to his house on Christmas night to kill his daughter. JR discovers this at some point. He either knows or suspects who is responsible and he knows why it happened, but he cannot say anything because it will reveal his illegal business dealings and the loss of his job, house, etc. Everything he has worked so hard to build for years will be destroyed if he reveals the truth. What does he do? He keeps quiet and points to an unknown intruder instead. His behavior is misinterpreted as parental guilt for participating in the murder of his daughter by many people. He did not kill her and yet he is not innocent because he knows something he can never tell.