Skull fracture question

[coloradokares]

Rash, do you mean with the purposeful intention of trying to harm JonBenet? Or do you mean Patsy lost control, consciously knew she was out of control yet didn't try to reign-in her anger, then decided to go ahead and slam JonBenet's head against something? I'm trying to decide if you mean voluntary manslaughter or murder one (U.S.A. definitions). TIA

I think Patsy went over the Top and the end result was she had a mortally wounded child. I am not sure that was ever the intent. Just the end result. I think there are indications and signs thigs were a little out of control and nuts in Boulder. Well hidden in the illusion of perfect parent but out of control all the same I will say it one more time youd have to be in the presense of that level of rage that would scare the heebie jebbies out of the normal person to fathom it.

 

[BOESP]

Comments in bold.

but this was so much more,don't you think?

I think it was a low-velocity/high-pressure injury like Lacy Wood just suggested. Gosh, it was getting lonely sitting here by myself.


I don't think it started out that way,but perhaps JB was uncooperative once they were in the bathroom (this is only one of my theories),and Patsy just **snapped all of a sudden,feeling the situation w/ JB was just an ongoing hopeless one,and said to herself 'you know what? I'M SICK AND TRIED OF THIS CHILD ! I'VE HAD IT...THIS IS ENOUGH !' And that was that.

I can see that thought running through Patsy's head but I'm not sure I can see that she intentionally hurt JonBenet.

that's what I mean by acute decompensation.it's doesn't necessarily mean the person is psychotic.

Thanks for clearing that up.


I think Jeffrey MacDonald went into acute decompensation due to the uppers he was taking,however,he wasn't completely out of his mind.

I would agree with that but I don't know that Patsy had access to as many drugs as did McDonald. I'm going to step out on a limb and say I'm not even sure Patsy was particularly angry at JonBenet. I think it is just as possible it was totally an accidental death. If we only had access to all the evidence .... <sigh>.

I also keep in mind what SD said on his q's thread..that Patsy had a need for the spectacular,and perhaps altruism was involved as well.

Thanks for the good discussion, JMO.

 

[BOESP]

Sorry for a hit and run post, but I would suggest (as I have before) that the 8+ inch split in the skull with no visible trauma could have occurred from a increasing pressure force which burst the skull...sort of like if you sat on a pumkin as compared to hitting it with an object. It need not be a particularly slow pressure increase, just something not instantaneous, like a youngster's head caught under an old-style or malfunctioning garage door. An alternative is a heavy pressure over a time period, like someone standing on or a large weight placed on the head.

Your scenario is similar to what I think the wound indicates. Glad you hit and ran.

 

[BOESP]

I think Patsy went over the Top and the end result was she had a mortally wounded child. I am not sure that was ever the intent. Just the end result. I think there are indications and signs thigs were a little out of control and nuts in Boulder. Well hidden in the illusion of perfect parent but out of control all the same I will say it one more time youd have to be in the presense of that level of rage that would scare the heebie jebbies out of the normal person to fathom it.

I agree with you CK. I think we all express things in totally different dialects and colloquialisms and think we'll be understood. Message boards, inherently, aren't conducive to good "communications" either.

I was going to applaud Solace's post that you applauded but since you applauded it I decided not to.

I have also wondered if, perhaps, it wasn't John who lost control. Have you noticed that in the Internet photos John has his arm wrapped around the children from his first marriage or else he is standing close to them and otherwise seemingly having affection for them. Few of the photos with Burke and JonBenet show that type affection from John. The photos give the illusion of being distant from his second family.

 

[coloradokares]

I agree with you CK. I think we all express things in totally different dialects and colloquialisms and think we'll be understood. Message boards, inherently, aren't conducive to good "communications" either.

I was going to applaud Solace's post that you applauded but since you applauded it I decided not to.

I have also wondered if, perhaps, it wasn't John who lost control. Have you noticed that in the Internet photos John has his arm wrapped around the children from his first marriage or else he is standing close to them and otherwise seemingly having affection for them. Few of the photos with Burke and JonBenet show that type affection from John. The photos give the illusion of being distant from his second family.

I think there was some distance beween John and the kids, I think the business became all consuming to John, The more they made the more they had to have so to speak. There were also the things that came into play such as the death of Beth Patsys cancer all when he was at his highest point career wise. I also think Patsy was very high maintenance so to speak. All that can weary the soul. I also see John as becoming detached and colder. I dont think the reality of that family was as bright as the pictures taken to chronicle it, I believe Patsy had a lot of problems the kind that drain those around them. I have said it before I think Patsy may well have been BiPolar diagnosed or not. Was John "diddling" Jon Benet, maybe but for sure Patsy was Way out. Maybe it was both. Either way the fix was in and they were never going to be prosecuted. There are others to blame for that besides Alex Hunter The Power Brokers waved their magic wands and the indictment went away. That is my opinon, for what its worth.

 

[Solace]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Colorado and BOESP.

You are both wonderful and I appreciate all your feed back. Thank you so much. :dance:

 

[BOESP]

... Either way the fix was in and they were never going to be prosecuted. There are others to blame for that besides Alex Hunter The Power Brokers waved their magic wands and the indictment went away. That is my opinon, for what its worth.

Would the Power Brokers fix something as critical as a child's death to protect Patsy just because John asked them to or do you think the PB's were solely protecting John?

It's definite JonBenet had some type of acute and chronic sexual abuse. I sit on the fence about whether it was for personal gratification or for punishment. She either had two people abusing her (Patsy and someone else), Patsy alone, or someone who had contact with her during the prior 24 hours (the "acute" time frame) as well as access for the chronic abuse (stated as up to 72 hours ). That narrows it down in my book.

 

[rashomon]

Rash, do you mean with the purposeful intention of trying to harm JonBenet? Or do you mean Patsy lost control, consciously knew she was out of control yet didn't try to reign-in her anger, then decided to go ahead and slam JonBenet's head against something? I'm trying to decide if you mean voluntary manslaughter or murder one (U.S.A. definitions). TIA

BOESP, I think it was manslaughter. I believe Patsy, in one very brief moment, 'saw red' to a point where she couldn't just control her anger anymore. I believe the moment itself was so short that Patsy didn't get to the point of thinking about the consequences of her action. For this is exactly what rage does - it makes the body go into attack mode, blocking out rational thinking.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP, I think it was manslaughter. I believe Patsy, in one very brief moment, 'saw red' to a point where she couldn't just control her anger anymore. I believe the moment itself was so short that Patsy didn't get to the point of thinking about the consequences of her action. For this is exactly what rage does - it makes the body go into attack mode, blocking out rational thinking.

Like a brief "moment of no return." Okay - thanks. I understand now.

 

[JMO8778]

Would the Power Brokers fix something as critical as a child's death to protect Patsy just because John asked them to or do you think the PB's were solely protecting John?

It's definite JonBenet had some type of acute and chronic sexual abuse. I sit on the fence about whether it was for personal gratification or for punishment. She either had two people abusing her (Patsy and someone else), Patsy alone, or someone who had contact with her during the prior 24 hours (the "acute" time frame) as well as access for the chronic abuse (stated as up to 72 hours ). That narrows it down in my book.

I think it's on the ask SD thread,but I'm pretty sure SD thought JB's
sexual abuse was being done by Patsy's father.and I think he said he wondered about JR as well.several of us had asked some questions,and it's about midway through,from what I can recall,as he answered several in one post.
due to the contents of the suitcase,I can't help but wonder if JAR was among them,if there was more than one abuser.notice that Patsy leaves him out in the interview where she's talking about JB and who all,where all,she was taught that she can be touched.(not that I believe they ever had this conversation..)but it was still something I noticed.JAR lived there at times,and I can't see why he wouldn't have been included in the list,or why JR wouldn't have told her to include him.(or maybe he did,who knows).

 

[JMO8778]

I have also wondered if, perhaps, it wasn't John who lost control. Have you noticed that in the Internet photos John has his arm wrapped around the children from his first marriage or else he is standing close to them and otherwise seemingly having affection for them. Few of the photos with Burke and JonBenet show that type affection from John. The photos give the illusion of being distant from his second family.

I think so,too.I have to wonder if he'd have covered for his first wife,if she'd done anything to hurt or kill any of them.I get the feeling he wouldn't have.

 

[coloradokares]

Colorado and BOESP.

You are both wonderful and I appreciate all your feed back. Thank you so much. :dance:

Thanks!! I so appreciate your knowledge and input as well!!

 

[DeeDee249]

I think there was some distance beween John and the kids, I think the business became all consuming to John, The more they made the more they had to have so to speak. There were also the things that came into play such as the death of Beth Patsys cancer all when he was at his highest point career wise. I also think Patsy was very high maintenance so to speak. All that can weary the soul. I also see John as becoming detached and colder. I dont think the reality of that family was as bright as the pictures taken to chronicle it, I believe Patsy had a lot of problems the kind that drain those around them. I have said it before I think Patsy may well have been BiPolar diagnosed or not. Was John "diddling" Jon Benet, maybe but for sure Patsy was Way out. Maybe it was both. Either way the fix was in and they were never going to be prosecuted. There are others to blame for that besides Alex Hunter The Power Brokers waved their magic wands and the indictment went away. That is my opinon, for what its worth.

Very good points. This would explain a lot about JR's reaction after JBR's death as well. Although not a lot has been mentioned about JR's extramarital affairs, if he was having an affair with someone in the time
preceding JBR's death, that would be a big reason for his distancing himself from PR and the kids from that marriage.

 

[Solace]

Solace, do you see Patsy as having been immature?

What do you mean?

 

[BOESP]

What do you mean?

Solace, I answered this by reviving an old thread about "Patsy's Psychological Autopsy." Sorry to stray off topic in the "Skull fracture" thread.

 

[Solace]

Solace, I answered this by reviving an old thread about "Patsy's Psychological Autopsy." Sorry to stray off topic in the "Skull fracture" thread.

That is okay. I just did not quite understand the question. And if you care to stray, stray away.

 

[BBB167893]

I think it's on the ask SD thread,but I'm pretty sure SD thought JB's
sexual abuse was being done by Patsy's father.and I think he said he wondered about JR as well

I wonder about a lot of people. Sometimes I doubt it was for gratification but rather as a means of control.

 

[DeeDee249]

I wonder about a lot of people. Sometimes I doubt it was for gratification but rather as a means of control.

I bet THAT is the case in many instances of familial abuse!

 

[JMO8778]

I wonder about a lot of people. Sometimes I doubt it was for gratification but rather as a means of control.

I got that a bit wrong,here's what you said under the ask SD thread:

Do you think JB was being molested and if so,was it possibly by someone other than JR?(like PR's father).

SD: I do, and there are some times when I wonder...

 

[BBB167893]

Glad we got that straight.