Golf club or flashlight or....?

[OpenMind4U]

Sorry to veer off-course, I was wondering about the hammer that was taken into evidence, it was not specified as to exactly what type of hammer it was but it could be another possible for the head-blow weapon.

I'm very glad you did 'veer off-course'!...I'm wondering about the hammer as well. What kind of hammer: from train kit-tool set?...If hammer - I'm sure it would be found in basement (or garage)...

Lately, something else cought my attention while re-reading ST book, page 44.

Among the items police now sought were the possible blugeon that caused the head wound and any dark fabric that might account for the fibers found on the body. A red clay brick that appeared to have fibers stuck to it was retrieved from the living room fireplace, and a baseball bat with a blond hair on it was found in the backyard. They were also looking for traces of semen, and in the victim's bedroom, ultraviolet light showed stains on the bed and surrounding carpet.

So, in addition to figure-out what weapon has been used, now I'm interesting to know which kind of STAIN ultraviolet light could trace ON the bed and SURROUNDING carpet???....hmmm....

 

[otg]

I'm very glad you did 'veer off-course'!...I'm wondering about the hammer as well. What kind of hammer: from train kit-tool set?...If hammer - I'm sure it would be found in basement (or garage)...

Lately, something else caught my attention while re-reading ST book, page 44.

Among the items police now sought were the possible blugeon that caused the head wound and any dark fabric that might account for the fibers found on the body. A red clay brick that appeared to have fibers stuck to it was retrieved from the living room fireplace, and a baseball bat with a blond hair on it was found in the backyard. They were also looking for traces of semen, and in the victim's bedroom, ultraviolet light showed stains on the bed and surrounding carpet.

So, in addition to figure-out what weapon has been used, now I'm interesting to know which kind of STAIN ultraviolet light could trace ON the bed and SURROUNDING carpet???....hmmm....

Nearly all body fluids fluoresce in the light from a black light: semen, urine, vaginal fluids, saliva... Doesn't even have to be human.

I've told this before, so some may remember. A colleague of mine from work told me of his former experience at a meat processing facility. USDA inspectors would shine a black light on and around hanging carcasses of cattle in cold storage (and other areas as well) to look for signs of rat infestation. Rats poop and pee constantly as they run around. Their urine trails will show up under black light.

Want to find where your dog or cat pees on your carpet when you don't know about it? http://www.ehow.com/way_5492072_home-dog-urine-odor-house.html

Semen? Saliva? The type of light used by CSI's? And once a fluid has been found, it has to be analyzed to determine what it is.

Some of the room photos showed squares of carpet that had been cut out and removed. I imagine this is why -- to determine the kind of dried fluid. To my knowledge, we have never heard the results of that testing, so we don't know exactly what the fluids were. We probably won't know unless someone asks Kolar about it and he is willing to answer.)
.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Nearly all body fluids fluoresce in the light from a black light: semen, urine, vaginal fluids, saliva... Doesn't even have to be human.

I've told this before, so some may remember. A colleague of mine from work told me of his former experience at a meat processing facility. USDA inspectors would shine a black light on and around hanging carcasses of cattle in cold storage (and other areas as well) to look for signs of rat infestation. Rats poop and pee constantly as they run around. Their urine trails will show up under black light.

Want to find where your dog or cat pees on your carpet when you don't know about it? http://www.ehow.com/way_5492072_home-dog-urine-odor-house.html

Semen? Saliva? The type of light used by CSI's? And once a fluid has been found, it has to be analyzed to determine what it is.

Some of the room photos showed squares of carpet that had been cut out and removed. I imagine this is why -- to determine the kind of dried fluid. To my knowledge, we have never heard the results of that testing, so we don't know exactly what the fluids were. We probably won't know unless someone asks Kolar about it and he is willing to answer.)
.

otg, thank you very much for explanation. Very interesting, indeed. So, we have 'something' (or maybe 'nothing') ON the bed and SURROUNDING carpet. If 'something' then the only logical explanation of the body 'dried fluid' ON the bed and SURROUNDING carpet could be urine, right? not the stains from Pepsi-Cola?...body fluid!....I can understand ON the bed, knowing JBR had bedwetting problem while sleeping....but SURROUNDING carpet is entirely different matter!...JMO. Anyway, while we're talking about body fluid, I have some thoughts...please correct me if I'm wrong.

I have 4 grandsons. Usually, boys need longer time to learn the potty training than girls. By age of 3, they've ware the 'training' diapers or some kind of nightly pants, preventing an accidents. But, accidents have happened regardless, leaving stains on the bed sheets. And of course, if they wouldn't have ware the diaper and were 'late' to run to the toilet - the urine will be on both: on sheets and on carpet.

Now, according to ST - JBR still using diapers. Her closet door was opened and diapers bag was hanging out...but we don't know if she used diaper THAT night. We only know what PR said: she took-off JBR's black pants and put johnlong pants, instead. When JBR was found death in WC, she wasn't waring diaper. Her blader was empty. The urine was on the FRONT of longjohn and Bloomy oversized panty, as the last 'pee' when she dies. So, we have couple scenarios here.

Scenario #1. JBR did bedwetting that night.
IF we'll believe PR/JR story that JBR was asleep after FW party (means, did not went to the bathroom before going to sleep and did not ware the diaper!) and her sheets 'reeks the urine' next morning THEN
- PR/JR LIES: JBR wasn't originally dressed in johnlong pants!. Johnlong pants was part of the re-dressing 'staging'!

In this case, it's very possible that urine can be found ON the bed and surrounding carpet (however, the stain on the carpet coud be not related to this specific night, just possibility/speculation). On the side note, according to Kolar, the toilet paper was found inside of the toilet bowl. So, it's possibility that JBR was using the toilet that night.

Scenario #2. JBR did NOT bedwetting that night.
IF we'll believe PR/JR story that JBR was asleep after FW party (means, did not went to the bathroom before going to sleep and did not ware the diaper!) and her sheets 'reeks the urine' next morning THEN
- the sheets wasn't changed since prior nights;
- ACUTE SEXUAL INJURY was part of the 'staging' . Otherwise, she would pee after such an assult and head blow to follow, regardless of strangulation! and hence it would be different urine pattern and quantity...which would lead to...PR/JR LIES: JBR wasn't originally dressed in johnlong pants and johnlong pants was part of the re-dressing 'staging'!

Please, please - let me know where I'm wrong with above 'analysis'....

 

[DeeDee249]

What was found on the sheets was proven to be creatinine- from dried urine. That was conclusive. What was found on the carpet sections taken from her room and possibly the basement has been thought to be creatine as well, but I have not seen that stated as definite.

 

[otg]

(snipped and bbm)
I have 4 grandsons. Usually, boys need longer time to learn the potty training than girls. By age of 3, they've ware the 'training' diapers or some kind of nightly pants, preventing an accidents. But, accidents have happened regardless, leaving stains on the bed sheets. And of course, if they wouldn't have ware the diaper and were 'late' to run to the toilet - the urine will be on both: on sheets and on carpet.

:hand: Oh, c'mon, OM. Are you trying to tell me boys are slower learners than girls? :notgood: What a sexist, chauvinistic thing to suggest. :slap:

Now, according to ST - JBR still using diapers. Her closet door was opened and diapers bag was hanging out...but we don't know if she used diaper THAT night. We only know what PR said: she took-off JBR's black pants and put johnlong pants, instead. When JBR was found death in WC, she wasn't waring diaper. Her blader was empty. The urine was on the FRONT of longjohn and Bloomy oversized panty, as the last 'pee' when she dies. So, we have couple scenarios here.

Scenario #1. JBR did bedwetting that night.
IF we'll believe PR/JR story that JBR was asleep after FW party (means, did not went to the bathroom before going to sleep and did not ware the diaper!) and her sheets 'reeks the urine' next morning THEN
- PR/JR LIES: JBR wasn't originally dressed in johnlong pants!. Johnlong pants was part of the re-dressing 'staging'!

In this case, it's very possible that urine can be found ON the bed and surrounding carpet (however, the stain on the carpet coud be not related to this specific night, just possibility/speculation). On the side note, according to Kolar, the toilet paper was found inside of the toilet bowl. So, it's possibility that JBR was using the toilet that night.

Scenario #2. JBR did NOT bedwetting that night.
IF we'll believe PR/JR story that JBR was asleep after FW party (means, did not went to the bathroom before going to sleep and did not ware the diaper!) and her sheets 'reeks the urine' next morning THEN
- the sheets wasn't changed since prior nights;
- ACUTE SEXUAL INJURY was part of the 'staging' . Otherwise, she would pee after such an assult and head blow to follow, regardless of strangulation! and hence it would be different urine pattern and quantity...which would lead to...PR/JR LIES: JBR wasn't originally dressed in johnlong pants and johnlong pants was part of the re-dressing 'staging'!

Please, please - let me know where I'm wrong with above 'analysis'....

I see nothing wrong with either of your scenarios, other than what each of them begins with. Namely, "IF we'll believe PR/JR story that JBR was asleep after FW party..." Either way you prove what was already known. Namely, "PR/JR LIES." (But I still can't buy into the idea that any of the vaginal injuries were staging or coverup for prior injuries.)

On a side note... Can you imagine what that house must have smelled like? Poop and pee everywhere, in the beds, on the floors, in the dirty laundry, in the unflushed toilets, probably on the kids' unwashed hands, on door handles, ON FOOD! For cryin' out loud. What a hell hole!
.

 

[OpenMind4U]

:hand: Oh, c'mon, OM. Are you trying to tell me boys are slower learners than girls? :notgood: What a sexist, chauvinistic thing to suggest. :slap:

I see nothing wrong with either of your scenarios, other than what each of them begins with. Namely, "IF we'll believe PR/JR story that JBR was asleep after FW party..." Either way you prove what was already known. Namely, "PR/JR LIES." (But I still can't buy into the idea that any of the vaginal injuries were staging or coverup for prior injuries.)

On a side note... Can you imagine what that house must have smelled like? Poop and pee everywhere, in the beds, on the floors, in the dirty laundry, in the unflushed toilets, probably on the kids' unwashed hands, on door handles, ON FOOD! For cryin' out loud. What a hell hole!.

What a sexist, chauvinistic thing to suggest. :slap:

LOL....I said 'usually'...:woohoo:

On a side note... Can you imagine what that house must have smelled like? Poop and pee everywhere, in the beds, on the floors, in the dirty laundry, in the unflushed toilets, probably on the kids' unwashed hands, on door handles, ON FOOD! For cryin' out loud. What a hell hole!

Agree. Large house with a lot of 'closets' (you know what I mean?).

But I still can't buy into the idea that any of the vaginal injuries were staging or coverup for prior injuries.

otg, me either!... otherwise, why cleaning, right? This was my strong believe until the time issue (90 min) comes around...if true (and I have no expertise to question it's validity), it alters a lot! By MANY experts, the 'acute injury' happens near-death time frame. So, in my sequential order of events, the acute sexual assult from the 'first' place - moves almost to the 'last' place, before strangulation...changing the MEANING of itself....

However, I agree with you, acute injury was done NOT to 'coverup for prior injuries'. But what for?!!! I have an idea but really affraid to put it in writing...for now...:what:

 

[midwest mama]

However, I agree with you, acute injury was done NOT to 'coverup for prior injuries'. But what for?!!! I have an idea but really affraid to put it in writing...for now...:what:

OM, I wonder too, about that vaginal injury coming 'near' the time of death - having something to do with ongoing rage by the perpetrator. Are we on the same wave length?:stretch:

 

[OpenMind4U]

OM, I wonder too, about that vaginal injury coming 'near' the time of death - having something to do with ongoing rage by the perpetrator. Are we on the same wave length?:stretch:

MM, possible...now, add to your thoughts the meaning of 'virginity'. And if you'll understand where I'm going - you'll understand why it was important to wipe/clean-it off after....:what:

 

[midwest mama]

MM, possible...now, add to your thoughts the meaning of 'virginity'. And if you'll understand where I'm going - you'll understand why it was important to wipe/clean-it off after....:what:

OM - I pulled the following report from the transcribed autopsy report on Crimeshots.

"Genitalia: The upper portions of the vaginal vault contain no abnormalities. The prepubescent uterus measures 3 x 1 x 0.8 cm and is unremarkable. The cervical os contains no abnormalities. Both fallopian tubes and ovaries are prepubescent and unremarkable by gross examination.
Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. the smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contain epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen."

Does this mean the fresh damages to JB were only in the lower portions of her vagina, between a newly eroded hymen and the outside body opening of the vagina? And there were no previous damages that went higher up into her body beyond the hymen?

So, do you think the eroded hymen came from a previous insertion during the attack on JB that night, and the "paintbrush" stick was used to create a cover for that night's activity, rather than to cover for the "chronic" activity?

C'mon, OM, help me out here!

 

[crimedoesnotpay]

OM - I pulled the following report from the transcribed autopsy report on Crimeshots.

"Genitalia: The upper portions of the vaginal vault contain no abnormalities. The prepubescent uterus measures 3 x 1 x 0.8 cm and is unremarkable. The cervical os contains no abnormalities. Both fallopian tubes and ovaries are prepubescent and unremarkable by gross examination.
Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. the smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contain epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen."

Does this mean the fresh damages to JB were only in the lower portions of her vagina, between a newly eroded hymen and the outside body opening of the vagina? And there were no previous damages that went higher up into her body beyond the hymen?

So, do you think the eroded hymen came from a previous insertion during the attack on JB that night, and the "paintbrush" stick was used to create a cover for that night's activity, rather than to cover for the "chronic" activity?

C'mon, OM, help me out here!

I read that the previous contact was at least 10 days before because the tissue had healed - the rim of the hymen was thickened indicating chronic abuse.

 

[OpenMind4U]

OM - I pulled the following report from the transcribed autopsy report on Crimeshots.

"Genitalia: The upper portions of the vaginal vault contain no abnormalities. The prepubescent uterus measures 3 x 1 x 0.8 cm and is unremarkable. The cervical os contains no abnormalities. Both fallopian tubes and ovaries are prepubescent and unremarkable by gross examination.
Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. the smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contain epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen."

Does this mean the fresh damages to JB were only in the lower portions of her vagina, between a newly eroded hymen and the outside body opening of the vagina? And there were no previous damages that went higher up into her body beyond the hymen?

So, do you think the eroded hymen came from a previous insertion during the attack on JB that night, and the "paintbrush" stick was used to create a cover for that night's activity, rather than to cover for the "chronic" activity?

C'mon, OM, help me out here!

MM, I'm 100% agree on 'eroded hymen came from a previous insertion' statement.

However, IMO, the 'previous' means NOT during that night. And I think all these previous occurances didn't draw the blood either, keeping 'hymen eroded' but intact, with no indication of the 'lost virginity', do you know what I mean? And only injury which would draw the blood is an 'acute' one, presumably done near her death: 'smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contain epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringent foreign material' . And IMO, it wasn't done to cover the prior sexual activities...it was done to finish off what wasn't done before. JM (call this crazy!)O...I'll stop right here.

There were numerious discussions on WS over the years in regards of 'hymen' injury. For example, read post #295:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5000415;

 

[midwest mama]

MM, I'm 100% agree on 'eroded hymen came from a previous insertion' statement.

However, IMO, the 'previous' means NOT during that night. And I think all these previous occurances didn't draw the blood either, keeping 'hymen eroded' but intact, with no indication of the 'lost virginity', do you know what I mean? And only injury which would draw the blood is an 'acute' one, presumably done near her death: 'smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contain epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringent foreign material' . And IMO, it wasn't done to cover the prior sexual activities...it was done to finish off what wasn't done before. JM (call this crazy!)O...I'll stop right here.

There were numerious discussions on WS over the years in regards of 'hymen' injury. For example, read post #295:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5000415;

OK, I am on track. I had previously gleaned from the info I read that JB had been victimized by a sexual abuser for quite a while before the final attack on the night of her death. IMHO, she had multiple 'abusers' from within her family. But, if I am reading between your lines, are you suggesting her attacker that night wanted to see a final display that he/she had finally 'taken her virginity'? Wow, that would drive home the word [U]psycopath[/U] to the description of her killer, wouldn't it?

 

[OpenMind4U]

OK, I am on track. I had previously gleaned from the info I read that JB had been victimized by a sexual abuser for quite a while before the final attack on the night of her death. IMHO, she had multiple 'abusers' from within her family. But, if I am reading between your lines, are you suggesting her attacker that night wanted to see a final display that he/she had finally 'taken her virginity'? Wow, that would drive home the word [U]psycopath[/U] to the description of her killer, wouldn't it?

Yeap, it definitely would!...The same as the act of the 'garroting': such a grotesque, pervert, over-kill method of applying on 6-year old child!

IMO, if you'll look closely on these three assults - head injury, strangulation and acute sexual injury - the only head injury could be explained as the 'rage'-motivited action. The strangulation (adding the garroting element, regardless if it was workable or not) and acute vaginal injury (presumably done by painbrush) are too pervert-like with psycopathic overtone motivated....would you agree?

 

[midwest mama]

Yeap, it definitely would!...The same as the act of the 'garroting': such a grotesque, pervert, over-kill method of applying on 6-year old child!

IMO, if you'll look closely on these three assults - head injury, strangulation and acute sexual injury - the only head injury could be explained as the 'rage'-motivited action. The strangulation (adding the garroting element, regardless if it was workable or not) and acute vaginal injury (presumably done by painbrush) are too pervert-like with psycopathic overtone motivated....would you agree?[/QUOTE ]

I see it same as you do, but.....who's to say the same person wasn't a rage-filled, perverted psychopath? So, yes, it could be one person responsible for everything up to and including the head bash, and then another person taking care of the "stick" and the injury. Or, it could be one person responsible for everything. But, let's remember the comments made by investigators to consider the "hands of two people" involved in this crime.

I'm leaning towards at least two people.

 

[OpenMind4U]

I see it same as you do, but.....who's to say the same person wasn't a rage-filled, perverted psychopath? So, yes, it could be one person responsible for everything up to and including the head bash, and then another person taking care of the "stick" and the injury. Or, it could be one person responsible for everything. But, let's remember the comments made by investigators to consider the "hands of two people" involved in this crime.

I'm leaning towards at least two people.

AGREE!!!! But who can fit such a shoes: Patsy? Burke? John?

Let's talk about Patsy for a moment. Currently, I'm re-reading 'Police Files', mainly concentrating on interviews w/PR. Let me tell you - she's something else!!! Too bad we cannot SEE her body language...but I can feel it through her responces how conniving, two-faced FAKE personnality she really had! And it's not about the lies she made from one interview to the next one...it's about her cockiness, manipulative, stage-acting, out-of-control angriness...that at some point I was stoped and asked myself: does she psycho?!!!

The only person who really saw the TRUE Patsy was ST!!! I'm not saying that I agree with ST theory but I can understand WHY he feels that way: because he knew what she's capable of!!!

I can see her capable to do the 'sexual' punishment/lessons. Did you ever read 'Sybil' by Schreiber or see the movie by the same title?...if yes, you'll know what I'm talking about.

But I couldn't see the 'strangulation' part to be done by her! I made so many researches based on religion sacrificing...trying to justify the need for such a gruesome act. Nothing made sense to me. I was trying to justify this as the 'mercy' act - it didn't made sense to me either! And one day I understand: I was trying to find the logic based on MY mentality, not from 'perverted psychopath' mentality.

The same go's for Burke....Today, I don't know what he's capable of. Therefore, I wish his medical records as well as JBR medical records could be available for expert's review.

Bottom line, after learning about these 90 min time gap, I'm more willing to believe that regardless of 'staging' or not, at the minimum these two acts (acute injury and strangulation) have been done by 'perverted psychopath'. JMO

 

[txsvicki]

It sure would be interesting to know about Burke's abilities with his fingers and fine motor skills. It's been said that he did have problems with fine motor skills and handwriting. Fine motor skills is problems with the hands, and patsy was trying to get a computer for all the third graders. I figure it was to help burke. If his problem extended to tying things that would exclude him from tying the knots since it was all done pretty quickly in succession with the jab. I mention this because my grandson had the same problems with writing, tyings shoes, and buttoning. It goes along with ADD, and some kids can really get grouchy at times, at night after the meds start wearing off.

 

[Tadpole12]

heyya txsvicki,

BR was a whittler.

 

[txsvicki]

Yes, but it doesn't seem like he whittled very well or knew how to do it without leaving shavings everywhere. Whittling might not use the smallest muscles in the hand and fingers that writing and tying would. He may have had no problems with tying, just speculating and wanting to rule him out in tying the cords.

 

[crimedoesnotpay]

Yes, but it doesn't seem like he whittled very well or knew how to do it without leaving shavings everywhere. Whittling might not use the smallest muscles in the hand and fingers that writing and tying would. He may have had no problems with tying, just speculating and wanting to rule him out in tying the cords.

I read that he was doing well at school and the autism suggestion was made because he appeared aloofish or unfeeling in his interview - I would suggest there were other possible reasons for his behaviour though. xx I do however feel that a lot was given away in the things he nevertheless said and the way he acted. xx

 

[dodie20]

AGREE!!!! But who can fit such a shoes: Patsy? Burke? John?

Let's talk about Patsy for a moment. Currently, I'm re-reading 'Police Files', mainly concentrating on interviews w/PR. Let me tell you - she's something else!!! Too bad we cannot SEE her body language...but I can feel it through her responces how conniving, two-faced FAKE personnality she really had! And it's not about the lies she made from one interview to the next one...it's about her cockiness, manipulative, stage-acting, out-of-control angriness...that at some point I was stoped and asked myself: does she psycho?!!!

The only person who really saw the TRUE Patsy was ST!!! I'm not saying that I agree with ST theory but I can understand WHY he feels that way: because he knew what she's capable of!!!

I can see her capable to do the 'sexual' punishment/lessons. Did you ever read 'Sybil' by Schreiber or see the movie by the same title?...if yes, you'll know what I'm talking about.

But I couldn't see the 'strangulation' part to be done by her! I made so many researches based on religion sacrificing...trying to justify the need for such a gruesome act. Nothing made sense to me. I was trying to justify this as the 'mercy' act - it didn't made sense to me either! And one day I understand: I was trying to find the logic based on MY mentality, not from 'perverted psychopath' mentality.

The same go's for Burke....Today, I don't know what he's capable of. Therefore, I wish his medical records as well as JBR medical records could be available for expert's review.

Bottom line, after learning about these 90 min time gap, I'm more willing to believe that regardless of 'staging' or not, at the minimum these two acts (acute injury and strangulation) have been done by 'perverted psychopath'. JMO

I agree. Somebody was most definately capable of the prior injuries, and I agree that PR was capable. Once I accepted that the digital penetration didn't necessarily point to a man, a big door was opened. I have never seen penal penetration verified, and IMO, if this was all done by a man, there would probably have been penal penetration. What kind of perverted man would go to the sexual extreme of asphyxiation games, but stop at digital penetration? Makes no sense, unless he was impotenet. Asphyxiation to the point of near death is hard core perversion and I don't see anything that points to a sexual game gone bad. IMO, this was about anger and punishment. JB's little body was viciously attacked, and IMO, the anger takes precedence over anything sexual. And who would have been angry enough at her, to inflict so much damage? All MOO.