I totally agree. IMO, because of the reported time lapse, it looks like somebody tried to kill with the bash, waited around for her to die, and when she didn't, finished her off with the strangulation. IMO, anger and agitation at her for not dying 'as planned', might have caused the hair being pulled out so violently. In other words, switched from one mode of murder to another, to hurry things along. So? I'm thinking the head bash might have been premeditated too. Because like you, I just can't see the strangulation as any kind of mercy killing. The coroner couldn't tell until he pulled the scalp back, that JB had a skull fracture, so if a parent walked up and found her, she would have looked unconscious, not dead. And I don't care how dysfunctional a family is, it's moo that if a parent finds his child unconscious, his reaction wouldn't be to strangle her to death and blame an intruder. Not even if his son confessed to bashing her and knocking her unconscious. I guess where I have the most problem with this theory is, 1+1 doesn't =2. The bash shouldn't have led to murder. If PR's fibers can be explained away in the garrote and if evidence can be pointed towards BR as the basher and the strangler, I would find the BR theory more believable. And there may be evidence that hasn't been released, IDK, but like you said in an earlier post, it's PR's fibers entwined in the garrote, that cause the most issues with other theories. moo
Something that has been bugging me... (WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT)
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dodie20,
ITA. Current RDI theories do not explain the head injury very well. Why would a family member need to whack JonBenet on the head with such force?
That kind of injury normally happens as a precursor to other intended assaults.
.
Are you suggesting BR did both? If so, I don't buy it. It is so convenient to pin the whole thing on BR and then say the parents just covered up for him, but think about what you are saying, that a nine-year-old boy is a sadistic, homicidal maniac who coldly and brutally murdered his sister. And why? because he wasn't getting the attention he thought he deserved? You and all the other BDI theorists need to go back and rethink it, because that does not make sense, at least not to me. Under other circumstances I could see BR administering the head blow, but if you are saying he did both the head blow and the ligature, No way.
If BR was right about the hammer, I don't see much room for accident. A hammer! of all things. This late at night, I doubt somebody was working on a wood project and just happened to be holding a hammer when he/she raged. Every time I picture the hammer, I think of one of those old, rusty steel things, when in reality, the Rs probably had never even seen one of those things...more like a modern, rubber covered thing that came from some trendy hardware store like Home Depot. moo
It seems that you are taking one of the occupants of the house, and giving them a sort of special exemption. Much like many people refused to consider RDI because "they just couldn't do that".
What you describe as "convenient", is described by some as the theory which best parallels the GJ findings. And the theory that best describes the R's actions after the crime.
I don't know if BR was what you suggest, or a child with issues who possibly did not fully realize the severity and finality of his actions.
All I know is that imo, it seems less of a stretch then other theories.
No, I'm not suggesting BR did both. The exact opposite. I don't think he did either one. What I was trying to say, is I think one person did both things, but as of now, I don't think BR was that person. In my opinion, the evidence points to PR doing both. all moo
I apologize for making the assumption about where you were going because I have heard so many others saying that. I strongly disagree with the assertion that BR did both, without the parents knowledge, and then the parents found out about it after the fact and staged the RN, etc. I could accept BR involvement, such as:
BR accidently strangled his sister to death with the garrote, but then the head bash that came before the strangulation is unexplainable.
BR accidently (or in a fit of anger) bashed his sister in the head with something, so she is dying, but then the later strangulation must be explained. In this case, whoever you want to blame the strangulation on within the family, there are serious problems with it, many of which have been discussed on this forum.
But you seem to be suggesting something totally different, which is that neither the head bash nor the strangulation were an accident. Both were done purposefully with the malicious intent to murder JBR, and they were done by the same person. Intuition tells me you may be correct, but when I think of this scenario I automatically go to IDI, not RDI. But we know that the parents had knowledge of their daughter's death and were not innocent parties, so IDI is not accurate. This is the conundrum we always find ourselves in. We want to blame the parents but how the hell do you explain one or both of the parents intentionally murdering their daughter? I can't.
you're right, it is less of a stretch, but is there actual physical evidence that points to BR? I'm not giving him a pass because of his age, because I think he was more than capable...it just seems that for a BR theory to work, the whole theory gets convoluted...because in the end, even in a BR theory, it still comes down to PR. Since the evidence points to PR, (at least as far as I can tell), I think suggesting BR, through his actions, put PR in the position of murdering JB, is unbelievable. IMO, whoever bashed JB was the one to strangle her...and since it was PR's fibers entwined in the garrote, I think she did it all. all moo. I lost the charger to my kindle, so I haven't finished Kolar's book, but I'll get another one tomorrow and finish reading. From what I've read here, he's pretty convincing with the evidence, so I'll see. I have an open mind, and like I said, I think a 9-10 year old was more than capable of this, so after I finish the book, I may change my mind...but I've got to see the evidence. that points to BR. moo
The cord used on JB was known to be FLAT nylon cord. The exact cord was sold at a local hardware store (McGuckin's) and a receipt from the store showed Patsy bought two items at the store a few weeks before JB's death that matched the cord and tape exactly in price and department code.
One thing about autopsies. They can tell a lot about what happened at the time of death. Being dragged by that cord is definitely something that did not happen for the simple reason that the ligature furrows were circumferential. Had she been dragged (or hung or suspended), the ligature furrow would not be circumferential. There would be a gap opposite the direction she was dragged in. Like a hanging victim- there is a gap at the back of the neck opposite the weight that is pulling on the cord. Same would be seen on JB had she been dragged, hung, or suspended.
One thing about autopsies. They can tell a lot about what happened at the time of death. Being dragged by that cord is definitely something that did not happen for the simple reason that the ligature furrows were circumferential. Had she been dragged (or hung or suspended), the ligature furrow would not be circumferential. There would be a gap opposite the direction she was dragged in. Like a hanging victim- there is a gap at the back of the neck opposite the weight that is pulling on the cord. Same would be seen on JB had she been dragged, hung, or suspended.
None that I am aware of. But if you accept there was some level of staging as I do, then there is no evidence of anyone committing the actual murder.
I agree that the finish her off theory is pretty far out there. What I don' tagree with is that BDI = "PR finished her off"dodie20 said:
I tend to agreedodie20 said:
The fiber in the garotte is troubling. I wish I had more specifics about the fiber. It was after all most likely PR's cord, purchased and/or used for whatever original purpose by PR. My point is that the fiber may not indicate that PR tied the cord on the paintbrush handle. Or maybe she did? I would not be surprised if the handle was staging.dodie20 said:
Personally I did not come away from Kolar's book with the feeling that he is solid BDI, but more like he feels BDI should have always been on the table. That opinion mirrors my own.dodie20 said:
Chelly
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Just want to say DeeDee249, that I agree with you 100%.
sloane7777
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not really, was he a boy scout?
sloane7777
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I just had a thought , If BR really did it wouldnt you think PR was in "save the one thats left mode" on that line of thinking don't you guys think on her deathbed, a confession would insure BR's future?( I kind of think BR did kill her BTW, or at least hit her to begin with)
No. I do not think Patsy would have ever admitted to the crime no matter what the circumstances are. For her, it may have been more important going to her grave pleading ignorance of any involvement and remaining the "victim" than worrying about BR ever being found to be involved if he was. I honestly think she knew darn well that would never happen anyway.
I wish I could like this post again, because IMO, it sums up the whole problem with the BR theory. If whoever finished her off thought she was dead, then that would mean the strangulation was staging, so why pull the cord tight enough and long enough to kill? I don't know how long something like this would actually take, but I guess more than a few seconds. Has it been said about how long JB was strangled?
This brought to mind page 349 of Kolar's book:
"I was taken aback at another comment offered during the playing of a board game (during BR's interview by Dr. Susan Bernhard). The nature of the game involved guessing the features of faces hidden on the opponent's side of the game board. Burke had mistakenly flipped down a face on his side of the board and then returned it to an upright position, commenting: 'Oops, you're NOT DEAD YET.' This off-hand comment seemed extremely callous and suggested little care or concern for the circumstances at hand. i would later think this comment might have its source in the events surrounding the death of Jon Benet."
:scared:
eileenhawkeye
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The game Kolar is referring to is "Guess Who". And there is absolutely nothing in the game where the characters are dead. You basically just guess the character that your opponent has chosen, by asking them yes or no questions, and then eliminating the characters on your side that don't fit. I am not sure how well-known it is, so sorry if this is common knowledge lol
dodie20,
Oh My ? You do sound like the witness to a grotesque homicide.
Now how do you know how long the cord was pulled?
How do you know what is tight enough, some have suggested the circumferential furrow largely arises from postmortem gases?
Nobody, and I mean Nobody, except her killer of course, knows how long it took to asphyxiate JonBenet, and it might be a big mistake to assume that the garrote accomplished this.
.
I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say, or I wasn't very clear. Let me start over. I've heard, (don't know if it's true), that strangling somebody to death, is not quick. It takes awhile. I've never heard if a ligature speeds up the process, so I don't know if this affected the time involved, but it may have...as the head injury might have. My point was this-if the ligature was for staging and the perp 'unknowingly' killed JB in the process of staging, then how long did he stage? If strangling takes more than a few seconds, I don't believe this was staging...because why would a stager, (if he thought the victim was dead), strangle for any extended period of time? I tried googling a little bit, but couldn't find a real answer...just people speculating. It is gruesome and I don't like thinking about it, but I was curious to the amount of time involved here. all moo
Why would assuming the garrote accomplished this be a mistake? I'm just basing my theories on what has been presented. Maybe there's more, IDK...moo