Sources: Casey Anthony Intentionally Killed Caylee Pt. 2

[Wudge]

For those of you who care on this lovely Saturday afternoon, this is what must be met to give rise to criminal charges in the fact scenario mentioned before by PaddieAB:

OMISSIONS must meet 3 requirements:
1) Legal duty to act
2) Knowledge of facts giving rise to duty (or duty to learn facts)
3) Reasonably possible to perform

i. There are at least four situations where failure to act may constitute a legal breach of duty (can be held criminally liable):
1) when a statute imposes a duty (driver involved in accident must stop at scene)
2) When there’s a status relationship between the parties (parent/child, husband/wife, master/servant, captain/crew, innkeeper/customer)
3) When there is a contractual duty of care for another (lifeguard or nurse)
4) When there is a voluntary assumption of care for another and subsequent seclusion of person to keep aid away. [Jones v. U.S. (1962)]
5) When a person creates a risk of harm (or peril) to another. (Caused the dangerous situation to arise, even if innocently done)
6) Duty to control the conduct of others (parent to child)
7) Duty of a landowner to care for invitees

Where person is under legal duty and victim dies, many times actor is guilty of involuntary manslaughter—sometimes murder.

In Caylee's case, the A family (in my opinion) would be under legal duty to act if Caylee was say, drowning in the pool.

The ONLY caveat of which I am aware is the "innocent bystander" who has no legal duty to report or come to the aid.


SNIP

Excellent.

 

[countzero]

Nancy was on Court TV for a good number of years. It was there that she spoke about most of the cases I referenced.

If I know that she is going to have a particular person on her own show (such as Dr. Wecht or Dr. Lee), I might tune in for a short while or read the transcript of the show (most likely).

I kinda/sorta had that figured out before I posted, but I just wanted to yank the chain a bit on a Saturday afternoon. btw, enjoy reading "most" of your posts. I may not agree, but they are informative. Ok, that is as nice as I will be in case I really disagree with ya in the future.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

It's well known that Nancy has a serious "all guilty, all the time" bend based on drastic and unsupportable leaps to conclusions. She certainly appeals to people with such a failing.

I tell law students to watch her show as a good example of a bad example.

Hi, Wudge. I find your posts interesting. I don't always agree with you...

O/T I had a dream about you last night. I was in the underground parking garage for judges and da's office employees. The courthouse is in Dallas. Your name was on one of the spaces very near the elevator. WUDGE Are you a retired Judge? Are you ex Prosecutors office?

 

[cocoamom]

Posting in response to a few other posts -

I always laugh when I watch NG, I think she is hysterical but I do glean some interesting tidbits of info from the show that I then research -

As far as KC carrying a corpse of Caylee past GA, no way. Sorry to be graphic but shortly after death the bowels and stomach release. I seriously doubt KC would change her clothes - besides, odor would probably have begun within that 12 hours and what if he came up to her to kiss Caylee? Too much risk even for the demon...

 

[Wudge]

Wudge,

How about he EMTS in Britain that debated whether or not to save the poor guy that called for help?

They were charged.

BTW, you are on Target with Nancy. She only cares about her ratings. Not the people.

I had to research your offering of a "Britain EMTS" case, because nothing came to the front of my mind. I found the case you referenced (mind numbing). I had not heard of it until now.

It will be interesting to see what the final charges against the two medics ends up being.

 

[LCoastMom]

I wouldn't be surprised if this 'leak' was LE's way of giving KC some news to listen to on her new transistor radio.

Since her incarceration, I imagine this not-so-fair damsel in distress only knows what her knight in shining armor, JB, tells her. And judging by the way she looks at him, I can see her lost in a fantasy of flying off to Paris with him on a Concorde (or even a Cessna to Puerto Rico) after he saves her from the 'bad guys' any day now - and not really grasping the situation or caring about it.

She may have met her 'head games' match with the SA & LE.

Hmmm...wonder if she's still adding to the collection in her 'Media Coverage' binder.

Just curious, does Mrs JB accompany them on their fantasy vacation or is this a trip for 2? :smoochiesmilie:

 

[ecs5298]

You are not required to help or report.

That is state dependent. Several states have made it a law to not activate the emergency services if they witness or know of a bona fide emergency. I can back that up later, but I have to go get ready for work. Gonna be a busy night.

 

[Wudge]

SNIP

O/T I had a dream about you last night. I was in the underground parking garage for judges and da's office employees. The courthouse is in Dallas. Your name was on one of the spaces very near the elevator. WUDGE Are you a retired Judge? Are you ex Prosecutors office?

SNIP

Upon a bust of Pallas just above my chamber door.

 

[ecs5298]

I had to research your offering of a "Britain EMTS" case, because nothing came to the front of my mind. I found the case yiou referenced. I had not heard of it until now (mind numbing).

It will be interesting to see what the final charges against the two medics ends up being.

Don't know about the UK but here in the US the medics have a "duty to act" if they are on duty and presenting themselves as Emergency Services. Some states have expanded that to off duty personnel as well if they represent themselves as EMS (such as wearing a T-shirt that has Paramedic printed on the back"

I touched on this in another response but the general public does not have to help someone by law, if they do, they are covered by the Good Samaritan Act, but they are still held to their standard of knowledge and equipment available. Several states have recently passed legislation making people have a "duty to inform" meaning they don't have to stop and help but they do have to activate the 911 system.

 

[Wudge]

That is state dependent. Several states have made it a law to not activate the emergency services if they witness or know of a bona fide emergency. I can back that up later, but I have to go get ready for work. Gonna be a busy night.

Please provide the states when you return.

(salute)

 

[cocoamom]

Why does everyone seem to think the "leak" came from SA, LE or prosecution? If the duct tape or other evidence found ON the body was sent with the body for the 2nd autopsy wouldn't Dr. Lee have seen it and others on the defense? Wouldn't it be just like them to try to make it look like LE or SA leaked it?

I guess that is kind of far fetched - it would hurt their defense to leak that it was intentional. - sorry back to lurking

 

[QuietStorm]

Has it ever been stated what time of day on the 15th this "argument" between CA and KC took place? Looking at the text messages between KC and AH, there was a lot going on w/KC in the middle of June. She's feeling pressure from AH about moving (since KC keeps lying about when, where, and how that's going to happen). On the 13th, AH texts KC that she's almost done packing and wants to move her things the next day. KC's supposed to go to Jacksonville w/AH but lies about GA having "almost having" a stroke. She's caught stealing from family members again. So she's basically on or soon to be on a lot of people's list. Could be that she has been planning on ending Caylee's life for some time, and now that the pressure is on her, the time seems right. IMO she's filled her head with fantasies of how the people around her are going to rally to her side when she's the mom of a missing child. So that's a diversion from all the pressures on her. Perfect way in her mind to alleviate all the stress in her life at one time. Only problem is, she is having too much fun to put the plan into motion. She knows once she sounds the alarm, her social life and contact with her fellas will be disrupted.

If CA and Caylee had dinner with SP on the 15th, wouldn't they have returned home around 7pm that night? The cell tower pings are near the Anthony's that day until 9:15 AM, then they ping near TL's until around 7:10 PM that night. They then ping near the Anthony's from that time until about 4:13 PM on June 16th, the next day.

When did the fight take place on the 15th? The only lengthy gaps in the cell records that day where there was enough time for such a large spat occur at the Anthony home were from:

6/15/08
1:51 AM to 6:32 AM (no phone activity)
6:34 AM to 8:31 AM (no phone activity)
9:26 PM to 10:05 PM (no phone activity)
10:06 PM 10:25 PM (on the phone for 619 seconds)
10:49 PM to 11:02 PM (no phone activity)
11:04 PM to 11:44 PM (on the phone for 4814 seconds)

6/16/08
1:54 AM to 2:57 AM
3:22 AM to 7:45 AM

Based on this information, I don't think it's plausible that Caylee was killed on the 15th or 16th due to a fight. If there was a 30 minute fight that began around 9:26 PM, the only time KC was not on the phone immediately afterward was at 10:49 PM for 13 minutes. So, rather than thinking the fight caused her death, I think Caylee was intentionally killed because all of KC's lies were coming to a head and she saw the sensationalism as a way out. Of course, such a huge fight could have been a factor.

Using cell tower pings to form theories is tricky because a person can always turn their phone off. But since KC is known to be on the phone constantly, gaps in time can be significant clues IMO.

On the 16th, cell tower pings place KC at or near the family home until 4:18 pm, then she pings traveling, and then near TL's at 5:57 PM, plenty of time for KC to have killed her baby or prepare her for death. I see many possible scenarios for this to have happened (all intential to stay on topic), but here are my strongest.

Possible: KC left Caylee in the trunk to die from chloroform inhalation on the 16th after her father left for work and either before she got to TL's or in his parking lot. There was a one-hour gap between 4:53 PM and 5:57 PM after she passed the towers on Chickasaw and Old Cheney Highway, both that ping when she is between destinations. Her last call that pinged near the towers that normally ping when KC is known to be home ended around 4:16 pm.

Possible: KC buried KC at home on the 16th or left her in or near the playhouse and returned on the 17th or 18th and placed her in the trunk of her car.)

On the 17th, cell pings show KC home from 2:29 PM to about 4:05 PM. She then pings near Fusion for a few hours, then back to TL's.

On the 18th, cell pings show KC home from 2:47 PM until 4:10 PM. She then pings traveling and then back near TL's at 4:27 PM.

There are no cell pings near the Anthony's on the 19th. On the 20th, there are pings near the home from 1:44 PM to 1:53 PM.

On the 21st and 22nd, there are no cell pings near the Anthony's. On the 23rd, she pings there from 2:44 PM to 3:19 PM (or later, her call lasted about 5 minutes).

On the 24th, she pings near the Anthony's between 2:42 PM and 2:59 PM. There are no pings near there on the 25th or 26th. On the 27th, she pings near the Anthony's between 11:09 AM and 11:33 AM. Did she go home to fumigate her call and thus tell AH the dead squirrel story?

What cell towers are closest to Suburban Drive and Hopespring Drive? Using walking distance and google maps, below is a list and ping results. If any WS's went to the recovery site and used their cell phone, I'd be interested in knowing what tower they pinged from.

When home, KC pings strongest from McCoy Rd, Goldenrod Rd, and Lee Vista Rd. She pings from Chickasaw Trl and Econlockhatchee Trl most strongly when she is on the move.

28.5028444 -81.2863333 2820 S Goldenrod Rd, 2.4 miles
28.4691667 -81.2916667 6900 Lee Vista Blvd, 3.4 miles
28.5105556 -81.2383333 10398 Curry Ford Rd, 3.8 mi
28.4547222 -81.2836111 7000 McCoy Rd, 4 miles
28.5280556 -81.2486111 1200 S Econlockhatchee Trl, 4.3 miles
28.5234722 -81.3077222 5820 Curry Ford Rd, 4.5 miles
28.5444 -81.2767472 100 S Chickasaw Trl, 4.7 miles
28.4547222 -81.2836111 7000 McCoy Rd, 4 miles

Cross-posted on cell ping thread

 

[alwaysonmymind]

Upon a bust of Pallas just above my chamber door.

--Perched , and sat, and nothing more.

 

[RR0004]

The problems I find with this news report are first the "sources close to the investigation" actually making these types of statements. I do agree that the investigators involved in this case in every deoartment have conducted themselves in a very professional and ethical manner. This leak doesn't match that pattern of behavior.
I also believe that these leaked statements actually hurt the prosecution more than the defense. The leak gives JB lots to complain about and drag this case on longer arguing that Casey is unable to receive a fair trial.
The reporter choosing to report info from these anonymous sources is acting solely with ratings in mind. She is playing to a sector of the public's insaitible appetite for real-life drama. The reporter has only served to give JB a good argument for Casey's sixth amendment rights being violated. Like it or not, we all are entitled to a fair trial. Her story throws yet another wrench, another wrinkle into this mess. And in my opinion that does NOTHING to help bring about swift justice for the victim (who has been completely lost in this media circus)...Caylee.

You are right, Caylee has been lost for a long time in this mess.
IMO each media outlet is trying for a new angle with this case. Sometimes I think they get their ideas by checking out message board threads. There comes a time in the life of a case that the media needs to do something to keep folks interested. Personally, I'll be surprised if we find out much more factual information before trial (not that I wouldn't love to see more docs!). I don't think Casey's rights have been violated in any way, shape, or form. She'll get her fair trial.

 

[RR0004]

Has it ever been stated what time of day on the 15th this "argument" between CA and KC took place? Looking at the text messages between KC and AH, there was a lot going on w/KC in the middle of June. She's feeling pressure from AH about moving (since KC keeps lying about when, where, and how that's going to happen). On the 13th, AH texts KC that she's almost done packing and wants to move her things the next day. KC's supposed to go to Jacksonville w/AH but lies about GA having "almost having" a stroke. She's caught stealing from family members again. So she's basically on or soon to be on a lot of people's list. Could be that she has been planning on ending Caylee's life for some time, and now that the pressure is on her, the time seems right. IMO she's filled her head with fantasies of how the people around her are going to rally to her side when she's the mom of a missing child. So that's a diversion from all the pressures on her. Perfect way in her mind to alleviate all the stress in her life at one time. Only problem is, she is having too much fun to put the plan into motion. She knows once she sounds the alarm, her social life and contact with her fellas will be disrupted.

If CA and Caylee had dinner with SP on the 15th, wouldn't they have returned home around 7pm that night? The cell tower pings are near the Anthony's that day until 9:15 AM, then they ping near TL's until around 7:10 PM that night. They then ping near the Anthony's from that time until about 4:13 PM on June 16th, the next day.

When did the fight take place on the 15th? The only lengthy gaps in the cell records that day where there was enough time for such a large spat occur at the Anthony home were from:

6/15/08
1:51 AM to 6:32 AM (no phone activity)
6:34 AM to 8:31 AM (no phone activity)
9:26 PM to 10:05 PM (no phone activity)
10:06 PM 10:25 PM (on the phone for 619 seconds)
10:49 PM to 11:02 PM (no phone activity)
11:04 PM to 11:44 PM (on the phone for 4814 seconds)

6/16/08
1:54 AM to 2:57 AM
3:22 AM to 7:45 AM

Based on this information, I don't think it's plausible that Caylee was killed on the 15th or 16th due to a fight. If there was a 30 minute fight that began around 9:26 PM, the only time KC was not on the phone immediately afterward was at 10:49 PM for 13 minutes. So, rather than thinking the fight caused her death, I think Caylee was intentionally killed because all of KC's lies were coming to a head and she saw the sensationalism as a way out. Of course, such a huge fight could have been a factor.

Using cell tower pings to form theories is tricky because a person can always turn their phone off. But since KC is known to be on the phone constantly, gaps in time can be significant clues IMO.

On the 16th, cell tower pings place KC at or near the family home until 4:18 pm, then she pings traveling, and then near TL's at 5:57 PM, plenty of time for KC to have killed her baby or prepare her for death. I see many possible scenarios for this to have happened (all intential to stay on topic), but here are my strongest.

Possible: KC left Caylee in the trunk to die from chloroform inhalation on the 16th after her father left for work and either before she got to TL's or in his parking lot. There was a one-hour gap between 4:53 PM and 5:57 PM after she passed the towers on Chickasaw and Old Cheney Highway, both that ping when she is between destinations. Her last call that pinged near the towers that normally ping when KC is known to be home ended around 4:16 pm.

Possible: KC buried KC at home on the 16th or left her in or near the playhouse and returned on the 17th or 18th and placed her in the trunk of her car.)

On the 17th, cell pings show KC home from 2:29 PM to about 4:05 PM. She then pings near Fusion for a few hours, then back to TL's.

On the 18th, cell pings show KC home from 2:47 PM until 4:10 PM. She then pings traveling and then back near TL's at 4:27 PM.

There are no cell pings near the Anthony's on the 19th. On the 20th, there are pings near the home from 1:44 PM to 1:53 PM.

On the 21st and 22nd, there are no cell pings near the Anthony's. On the 23rd, she pings there from 2:44 PM to 3:19 PM (or later, her call lasted about 5 minutes).

On the 24th, she pings near the Anthony's between 2:42 PM and 2:59 PM. There are no pings near there on the 25th or 26th. On the 27th, she pings near the Anthony's between 11:09 AM and 11:33 AM. Did she go home to fumigate her call and thus tell AH the dead squirrel story?

What cell towers are closest to Suburban Drive and Hopespring Drive? Using walking distance and google maps, below is a list and ping results. If any WS's went to the recovery site and used their cell phone, I'd be interested in knowing what tower they pinged from.

When home, KC pings strongest from McCoy Rd, Goldenrod Rd, and Lee Vista Rd. She pings from Chickasaw Trl and Econlockhatchee Trl most strongly when she is on the move.

28.5028444 -81.2863333 2820 S Goldenrod Rd, 2.4 miles
28.4691667 -81.2916667 6900 Lee Vista Blvd, 3.4 miles
28.5105556 -81.2383333 10398 Curry Ford Rd, 3.8 mi
28.4547222 -81.2836111 7000 McCoy Rd, 4 miles
28.5280556 -81.2486111 1200 S Econlockhatchee Trl, 4.3 miles
28.5234722 -81.3077222 5820 Curry Ford Rd, 4.5 miles
28.5444 -81.2767472 100 S Chickasaw Trl, 4.7 miles
28.4547222 -81.2836111 7000 McCoy Rd, 4 miles

Cross-posted on cell ping thread

What was Casey doing between 7 and 10 the night of the 15th?

 

[Texas Mist]

Just curious, does Mrs JB accompany them on their fantasy vacation or is this a trip for 2? :smoochiesmilie:

Trip for 2, of course!

I bet she's doodling "kayseeomarie baez" as we speak. LOL

 

[stagehand]

You are right, Caylee has been lost for a long time in this mess.
IMO each media outlet is trying for a new angle with this case. Sometimes I think they get their ideas by checking out message board threads. There comes a time in the life of a case that the media needs to do something to keep folks interested. Personally, I'll be surprised if we find out much more factual information before trial (not that I wouldn't love to see more docs!). I don't think Casey's rights have been violated in any way, shape, or form. She'll get her fair trial.

Based on the comment by the SA in the hearing last week about when a trial might occur in this case, it could end up being next year at this time or later before that occurs. It won't be much longer until this case slips to the back pages. It's going to be difficult to keep running stories about who bought what at the jail commissary, most of the general public could care less.

 

[LCoastMom]

Don't know about the UK but here in the US the medics have a "duty to act" if they are on duty and presenting themselves as Emergency Services. Some states have expanded that to off duty personnel as well if they represent themselves as EMS (such as wearing a T-shirt that has Paramedic printed on the back"

I touched on this in another response but the general public does not have to help someone by law, if they do, they are covered by the Good Samaritan Act, but they are still held to their standard of knowledge and equipment available. Several states have recently passed legislation making people have a "duty to inform" meaning they don't have to stop and help but they do have to activate the 911 system.

A few years back (quite a few) in So Calif an ambulance with a Pt in transport went past an accident scene on the way to drop their patient. Coming back the ambulance went past the same accident. For whatever reason the techs didn't want to get involved so one lay down on the gurney as they drove past an observant cop or CHiP recognized them as going past twice and investigated. They were later charged and convicted. Quite appropriately IMO.

 

[vickycopsy]

Posting in response to a few other posts -

I always laugh when I watch NG, I think she is hysterical but I do glean some interesting tidbits of info from the show that I then research -

As far as KC carrying a corpse of Caylee past GA, no way. Sorry to be graphic but shortly after death the bowels and stomach release. I seriously doubt KC would change her clothes - besides, odor would probably have begun within that 12 hours and what if he came up to her to kiss Caylee? Too much risk even for the demon...

I agree Cocoamom, she wouldn't carry the corpse past GA. No way.

Regarding Nancy Grace, hows' come 'SHEEBA FROM ILLINOIS' can get through to Nancy Grace at least once or twice a week and I can NEVER get through. YOu would think her staff screening the calls would tell SHEEBA she has called enough... Geez! Anyone else notice this Sheeba lady???

 

[PaddieAB]

My post is in reply to discussions on the previous thread regarding accidental versus intentional death.

When the word “accident” is used in reference to Caylee’s death, I don’t think most people are suggesting Casey is not accountable....Caylee may have had an accident and Casey could well have intentionally caused her death!

A simplistic example....If I went for a walk with someone out in the wilderness - say that person was Joe. Joe stumbled on a tree root and fell over a cliff by accident, it was not my fault that Joe fell over the cliff. I don’t know if Joe is dead or alive and I can’t see or hear him down there.

So I have two options:
>>>>I immediately call 911. Unfortunately Joe died on the way to the hospital. Was Joe’s death an accident? Yes he fell over a cliff. I’m not charged as I did the right thing.

OR
>>>>I walk on my merry away and don't report the accident (for whatever reason - maybe I’m scared someone will think I pushed him). I act like nothing happened and coverup the fact that Joe and I went for a walk. I tell people who wonder what happened to Joe that he told me he had planned a vacation in Barbados. When someone eventually finds Joe’s dead body it’s discovered he scrawled a note just before he died....”paddieAB left me”. So the police investigate and I’m charged with murder. Was Joe’s death an accident? Yes or no? Did I intentionally cause his Joe’s death? Yes IMO because I deliberately walked away from the accident, I led people to believe he was on vacation and therefore no one was searching for him, and so I denied Joe the medical intervention that may have saved his life. I’m guilty.

And so may be Casey IMO

Thank you everyone for contributing your interesting thoughts.

I’ll just finish my scenario.

When Joe’s body is found I still don’t confess to any involvement. I shut right up, and claim I’m not guilty. I thought Joe was in Barbados all this time!

I am charged with murder and prosecutors argue that I INTENTIONALLY pushed Joe down that cliff and the reason I didn’t report the accident and lied about his whereabouts was because I was covering up the fact I murdered him. There is strong evidence to tie me to the scene. The jury listens to the case put forth and nod their heads in unison. I’m guilty of murder - regardless of Joe had an accident or not. Forget whether I didn’t seek medical intervention or not - no one cares because it is believed I was PLANNING TO KILL HIM!

OR....

What if at the 11th hour I cry “okay, okay, I admit I went for that walk with Joe. But I didn’t push him! Honest! He tripped over a tree root and stumbled!” But I’ve already lied through and through. No one had a gun to my head - I just lied. The jury believed I lied because I was guilty, so I was convicted. (And maybe I did push Joe over the cliff - no one knows but me!)

But I suppose my lawyer could plea bargain with the state, to save the cost of the trial or whatever. I really don’t have much to bargain on.... Conviction of Leaving the Scene of an Accident can substantial if death is involved. I don’t know about the State of Florida. Add in the charges that Theonly1 and others have mentioned, more regarding dead body disposal, and dozens of counts of misleading. I’m willing to bet the charges would total as much or more than a guilty plea to a murder rap.

*****
Casey has no bargaining position if she were to confess at this 11th hour either. IMO The state would throw the book at her for all the time and energy she has cost them and that’s the way it should be. Since she's NEVER claimed she was involved in Caylee's death in any way, or that it was accidental, she will be prosecuted on the basis the death was INTENTIONAL.

I think JB has no choice but to defend Casey on murder charges - regardless of what really happened, with the hope he could get her off on some technicality. Can’t see that he has any other option. The open window for truth is gone....

Hope I’m making sense.