South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi Van Breda, 22, Murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #5

[Fluffykins]

I was surprised how much weight he'd lost, but even more surprised to see how skinny Danielle was - a shadow of her former self.

Too worried to have any appetite.

 

[JudgeJudi]

But he did not just kill his parents. He killed or tried to kill anyone who had a claim on his parent's money. That is what this was about.

I was quoting from the conversation. He was convicted of murdering both parents and his brother and the attempted murder of his sister. There was no evidence before the court that he killed or tried to kill anyone who had a claim on his parents' money. While everyone wants to know what his motive was, to date nobody knows. I direct your attention to p.47 of the Summary of Judgment:

"No evidence exists to indicate a specific motive for killing any of the apparent decent family members, whether they were killed by an unknown intruder or the Accused".

 

[Interested Bystander]

I think there was more discord in the family than they would have you believe. I doubt even the extended family knew how much. I feel sure Martin was a disciplinarian and liked to be obeyed. I have a feeling Theresa referred to being frustrated at being 'hamstrung' by him in comments made by somebody she knew/was related to but I can find the specific report at the moment (the words used I have forgotten but 'hamstrung' is my interpretation not the actual description) and I am sure many of you will recall Marli's boyfriend saying he would like to murder them because of the way they were treating her. I also feel that it was overly important to the family that they, externally, and even to family, appeared near perfect.

 

[Fluffykins]

I meant it is a comprehensive Judgement that has sound reasons for all the findings. It's very clever because when I have thought of things he didn't include I realize there is a rationale for not including them - it's always matters of speculation. I'll try and think of some examples tomorrow because I'm a bit tired right now, but when I read the whole summary judgment yesterday these things occurred to me along the way.

Having said that there was a little niggle in the back of my mind at one point. I thought of something that the defence might challenge, but I can't remember what that was either right now. I will sleep on it and see if I can take my mind back to it tomorrow.

Was it that Henri didn't like the way Judge Desai dealt with Dr Olckers? That's the only thing I can think of that the defence might be able to use in an appeal.

 

[Tortoise]

Was it that Henri didn't like the way Judge Desai dealt with Dr Olckers? That's the only thing I can think of that the defence might be able to use in an appeal.

No, I've only remembered that it was a line in the summary judgement that stood alone, it was not backed up by reason or if you like, weighing. It was such a long document that took me virtually all day to read and it's going to take me an age to find it again (should have made a note!) but I will try to find it. In the overall scheme of things I'm not sure it would lead to an appeal but as I said it was just a niggle I had when I read it. The weight of all the evidence was what mattered in this case.

 

[Fluffykins]

I was quoting from the conversation. There is no evidence before the court that he killed or tried to kill anyone who had a claim on his parents' money. While everyone wants to know what his motive was, to date nobody knows. I direct your attention to p.47 of the Judgment:

"No evidence exists to indicate a specific motive for killing any of the apparent decent family members, whether they were killed by an unknown intruder or the Accused".

Well for what my opinion is worth, I think it was that Martin had high expectations of his kids and wasn't going to let Henri get away with being a non-contributing dropout, and he held up Rudi as the example of how he wanted Henri to behave, and I think Rudi would have sided with his father thus making them the main targets. Henri probably also saw Theresa and Marli as being supportive of Martin's authoritative parenting.

The passage you've bolded in Part 2 above by researcher Kathleen Hyde strikes me as being spot on.

 

[Fluffykins]

I think there was more discord in the family than they would have you believe. I doubt even the extended family knew how much. I feel sure Martin was a disciplinarian and liked to be obeyed. I have a feeling Theresa referred to being frustrated at being 'hamstrung' by him in comments made by somebody she knew/was related to but I can find the specific report at the moment (the words used I have forgotten but 'hamstrung' is my interpretation not the actual description). and I am sure many of you will recall Marli's boyfriend saying he would like to murder them because of the way they were treating her. I also feel that it was overly important to the family that they, externally, and even to family, appeared near perfect.

Absolutely agree, IB - the image of a perfect family was hugely important.

 

[Interested Bystander]

This is all I can find on a quick search but I think it was a friend of Theresa's who made the comment. It seems that Jahn had also noticed this.

Here is one report that alludes to all not being quite as calm as is described by the extended family. This was taken from Jahn’s (Marli’s boyfriend) testimony. I get the feeling that Jahn was careful about what he said in his testimony. I have only used a few elements of Jahn’s testimony which, to me, seem to point to problems within the family. I am guessing but I imagine that Martin would have not allowed Jahn to see the full extent of his controlling nature.

We all want our children to do well but there are times that some parents pressurise their children to the point of breakdown. Did this happen?

Marli van Breda's ex takes the stand

“Jahn said the parents had a good relationship with each other, although the father was more dominant, “a more controlling figure in the family”.

He told the court that Teresa wanted a little more freedom after returning to South Africa, and Martin wasn’t used to that.

Martin’s relationship with all three children was good he added. “He dealt with the children in a similar way, he wanted the best for his children and wanted them to be diligent and work as hard as possible. He tried to be a good father.”

The family had also wanted Marli to scale back her relationship with Jahn as they felt it was interfering in her school work. Jahn said Marli had been very upset after the argument, and had told him her mother had been too.

“I was concerned about why Theresa was so upset, something else may have cropped up.”

 

[patCee]

Martin was very involved in education, the reason he returned to South Africa. Henri was not an achiever and had dropped out of his uni course. This in contrast to his older brother. Henri was also involved in drug use. Earlier reports claimed that Martin had stopped his allowance, presumably to make him 'measure up', take his life seriously, and stand on his own two feet. Henri was failing, resulting in resentment towards Martin and his older brother, rather than 'getting his act together'. So killing them would be revenge - he killed his, apparently successful, brother first who was his main rival in the family. In the drama and high emotions he carried on killing the rest of the family as they ran to the bedroom. Who knows if it was his initial plan to kill them too, or just use the intruder excuse for his brothers death. The money would be a bonus.

Little has been said about Marli's recovery and to what extent she has brain damage and possible disabilities. I can understand her having no memory of being attacked. As she rushed to the commotion in her brother's bedroom, she was attacked. She would not have known what was happening. Probably within seconds after a glimpse of her mother lying on the landing she would have fallen unconscious from the attack. So really very little to remember in that situation.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Well for what my opinion is worth, I think it was that Martin had high expectations of his kids and wasn't going to let Henri get away with being a non-contributing dropout, and he held up Rudi as the example of how he wanted Henri to behave, and I think Rudi would have sided with his father thus making them the main targets. Henri probably also saw Theresa and Marli as being supportive of Martin's authoritative parenting.

The passage you've bolded in Part 2 above by researcher Kathleen Hyde strikes me as being spot on.

I think the BIB was spot on as well. I can't see how a parent can take a softly softly approach if the child is taking drugs, has been sent to rehab and then continues taking them. He dropped out of university and sat around the house doing nothing all day. A man with a strong work ethic like Martin wouldn't tolerate that.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Martin was very involved in education, the reason he returned to South Africa. Henri was not an achiever and had dropped out of his uni course. This in contrast to his older brother. Henri was also involved in drug use. Earlier reports claimed that Martin had stopped his allowance, presumably to make him 'measure up', take his life seriously, and stand on his own two feet. Henri was failing, resulting in resentment towards Martin and his older brother, rather than 'getting his act together'. So killing them would be revenge - he killed his, apparently successful, brother first who was his main rival in the family. In the drama and high emotions he carried on killing the rest of the family as they ran to the bedroom. Who knows if it was his initial plan to kill them too, or just use the intruder excuse for his brothers death. The money would be a bonus.

Little has been said about Marli's recovery and to what extent she has brain damage and possible disabilities. I can understand her having no memory of being attacked. As she rushed to the commotion in her brother's bedroom, she was attacked. She would not have known what was happening. Probably within seconds after a glimpse of her mother lying on the landing she would have fallen unconscious from the attack. So really very little to remember in that situation.

Marli had numerous defensive injuries on her extremities and hands which were indicative of a severe struggle going on during the attack in an attempt to save her life. She was the last person to be attacked.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Jahn also testified that the parents had a “good interaction” with their children, and often wanted to spend time together as a family.

On the night of the argument when Marli and Jahn were sending WhatsApp messages to one another, she told him that her mother was attacking her more than ever, more than her dad was.

Here’s a link to Exhibit FF containing all their WhatsApp messages that night. Scroll down to 9:07:33 in particular.

Marli van Breda's Whatsapp messages | CapeTown ETC

Click on the link under para. 1 to download the file.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I think the BIB was spot on as well. I can't see how a parent can take a softly softly approach if the child is taking drugs, has been sent to rehab and then continues taking them. He dropped out of university and sat around the house doing nothing all day. A man with a strong work ethic like Martin wouldn't tolerate that.

I agree with what you say re Henri's behaviour. Any decent parent would find this difficult to deal with but as Labuschagne said this type of parental stress that causes some children to kill. There is no way Martin would have known he had pushed Henri over the edge. He was doing what he thought best for his son. I recall Marli saying of Henri that he was a bit of an odd ball. I read that to mean a bit strange (my word not hers, as I haven't yet found the report). I wonder exactly what she meant by that.

 

[Tortoise]

I linked an interview with Julian Jansen right after the judgement (post #592). I've transcribed just this portion as it relates to Henri's relationship with Martin (English is not Jansen's first language which may account for some of the problematic wording - I am really trying to make sense of the bit in bold) :

In the words of his own grandmother Rika Du Toit she mentioned to a report on Saturday that Martin van Breda Henri's father at times was very aggressive towards Henri. Henri admitted in court he had a stuttering problem and the response to Martin to that stuttered speech of Henri was very negative and I myself am of the opinion that Henri, over time, it impacted on him psychologically.

The father took away his money because his father and his mother knew that he used that to buy drugs and I think over time, since he arrived in August 2014 that he encountered clashes with his parents, some of that witnessed by the carer of Martin that was a neighbour, and rendering her actually into a nervous breakdown. That told us that over time it built up - Henri was a living time bomb and on 26th January 2015 the neighbour Stefanie O'pt Hof accounted for hearing raised voices, angry male voices emanating from the opposite house of the van Breda family, so I think that actually on that fateful night Henri just grabbed the axe and he went berserk.

I wonder if carer (if I've heard him correctly) might mean the person who was looking after Martin's health since he was recovering from bowel cancer surgery at the time of the murder?

 

[JudgeJudi]

Was it that Henri didn't like the way Judge Desai dealt with Dr Olckers? That's the only thing I can think of that the defence might be able to use in an appeal.

Here's the bit you're thinking about Fluffy, but it's not a ground for appeal.


Court has adjourned for a "few seconds" as Botha says he needs to take instruction from client.
The Defence putting on record that their client (Henri) is concerned with Desai's demeanour and interaction with witness.
Botha says his client is concerned by the "irritation" of Judge Desai with the witness and his tone of voice, which displays "impatience".
Adv Botha says his client is concerned about Judge Desai's demeanour. Desai: Are you asking for my recusal?
Impatience is not a cardinal sin, says Desai. He notes Van Breda's concern and asks for the case to continue.
Moving on, the matter has been placed on record. Adv. Galloway continues.

AS IT HAPPENED: Are you asking for my recusal, asks judge in #VanBreda trial

 

[Tortoise]

Read more at link

“After sharing childhood memories the subject turned to Henri’s current state of mind, his counselling sessions and his future plans if found not guilty which include possible emigration to Canada...

Rabie also speculates in his book that if found guilty Van Breda’s therapist in all likelihood will be a crucial witness during argument in mitigation of sentence.

Henri visits ouma before judgment on Monday | Weekend Argus

Canadians can breathe a sigh of relief.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Re my earlier comment that Marli thought Henri was a bit weird. The only reference I can find is from Marli's boyfriend at the time when he referred to Henri as a "dick" which in slang can refer to someone who is stupid, simple, idiot but goes on to say that he is a "good guy".

We know Henri was very bright indeed, so he must be referring to Henri's behaviour.

 

[Fluffykins]

Here's the bit you're thinking about Fluffy, but it's not a ground for appeal.

Court has adjourned for a "few seconds" as Botha says he needs to take instruction from client.
The Defence putting on record that their client (Henri) is concerned with Desai's demeanour and interaction with witness.
Botha says his client is concerned by the "irritation" of Judge Desai with the witness and his tone of voice, which displays "impatience".
Adv Botha says his client is concerned about Judge Desai's demeanour. Desai: Are you asking for my recusal?
Impatience is not a cardinal sin, says Desai. He notes Van Breda's concern and asks for the case to continue.
Moving on, the matter has been placed on record. Adv. Galloway continues.

AS IT HAPPENED: Are you asking for my recusal, asks judge in #VanBreda trial

Thanks JJ, yes, I did wonder if that might have been a ground for appeal and am very glad to hear it isn't. :relieved: (making up my own non-existent smiley, lol)

I know Tortoise said it's unappealable, and on the face of it I absolutely agree; there certainly shouldn't be any grounds for appeal, but ... I can't help but think there will be an appeal because - and this goes back to a point made in the third part of your posts of the Labuschagne and Stollarz interview:

You get family members – the family gets very divided. Half the family supports the accused, believing that he’s innocent and the half of the family doesn’t, even after conviction, which happened with Henri. His remaining family believes he’s innocent.

Q. Do they believe he’s innocent even if it’s overwhelmingly pointing in their direction.

A. No. I think they just like to maintain the pretence for whatever reasons, because I think I think if they admitted it, then they’d lose their other family support also.

I'm assuming it's the extended family who are administering the family's estate, and if they've seen fit to fund Henri's trial thus far, then who of them is going to refuse to fund an appeal? Who would be game to stand up against the majority opinion? I don't think I would be.

 

[Fluffykins]

Does anyone know what "trophy points" are? :weird:

 

[patCee]

Marli had numerous defensive injuries on her extremities and hands which were indicative of a severe struggle going on during the attack in an attempt to save her life. She was the last person to be attacked.

Good point, overlooked by me, so she would have known, at that time, that it was Henri who attacked her.