Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #2

[CoverMeCagney]

I, too, was in the camp where she only summitted once. I'm trying to speculate how a second summit could logically have come about, since at least half our posters seem to think there were 2 summits.

We only know at what time photos were posted. Not what time they were taken.

Pic de Sauvegarde trip #1 - was documented on Instagram on the evening of 21st.

Pic de Sauvegarde trip 2# - different clothing, message sent to Dan (and presumably a phone ping) and photos taken at a different time of day to trip 1.

 

[otto]

Ok, but my point was that we have no idea where she was in the 24 hours prior to seeing the skier, so cannot rule anywhere out, we do not know where she walked or slept. We don’t know which direction she came from. It’s just guesswork.

And I’ve no issue with guesswork, it’s something we have to do, but it cannot and should not be presented as fact.

Does it seem likely that she hiked from the Refuge de Venasque, through the Port de Venasque, down the mountain in Spain, turned around, hiked back up the mountain, met the witness who was descending at 3PM, ascended the summit at 4PM? That seems like a lot of back and forth.

 

[otto]

I, too, was in the camp where she only summitted once. I'm trying to speculate how a second summit could logically have come about, since at least half our posters seem to think there were 2 summits.

We only know at what time photos were posted. Not what time they were taken.

Fair enough, but we don't have much choice but to trust information from the missing person. She posted a photo around 4PM on Nov 22 stating that she was at the summit.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Does it seem likely that she hiked from the Refuge de Venasque, through the Port de Venasque, down the mountain in Spain, turned around, hiked back up the mountain, met the witness who was descending at 3PM, ascended the summit at 4PM? That seems like a lot of back and forth.

Port de Venasque is at the base of Sauvegarde, not the top. You can walk from the trail head through the port to the refuge in either direction without climbing Sauvegarde.

 

[otto]

Port de Venasque is at the base of Sauvegarde, not the top. You can walk from the trail head through the port to the refuge in either direction without climbing Sauvegarde.

Per the map that I posted upthread

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Per the map that I posted upthread

View attachment 277834

I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. I’d also suggest you check the map out in proper 3D imagery - very difficult to judge the terrain on that map.

 

[otto]

Maybe this helps. She was in Spain ascending the mountain at 3PM. She was at the summit at 4PM. Hiking distance based on researching trail hike times and posted with links previously in discussion.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Blue V - Port de Venasque
Red line - trail up Sauvegarde
Yellow dot - Refuge de Venasque
Green - loop route, arrows point to road.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Maybe this helps. She was in Spain ascending the mountain at 3PM. She was at the summit at 4PM. Hiking distance based on researching trail hike times and posted with links previously in discussion.

View attachment 277835

I get it, Otto. And for the third time I agree with you. But you stated as fact that she has not been in France, and we just don’t know anything for certain, do we?

 

[RickshawFan]

Did ED have her pack on in the photo from the 22nd?
If I'd been scrambling up the Pic for the second day in a row (knowing how it went), I might have left my pack at the Port and got it on the way back. CLIF bar in pocket, and maybe a small amount of water (or, on a hot day, just the sleeve with the bladder...they sometimes have pack straps these days). That would have been a calculated risk that I might have taken, especially with a group. Solo on the way back to the trailhead? Maybe not me, but I could see someone doing that.
If she didn't have her pack with her, it would mean she encountered the Olympian NOT on the Port-Pic trail.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Did ED have her pack on in the photo from the 22nd?
If I'd been scrambling up the Pic for the second day in a row (knowing how it went), I might have left my pack at the Port and got it on the way back. CLIF bar in pocket, and maybe a small amount of water (or, on a hot day, just the sleeve with the bladder...they sometimes have pack straps these days). That would have been a calculated risk that I might have taken, especially with a group. Solo on the way back to the trailhead? Maybe not me, but I could see someone doing that.
If she didn't have her pack with her, it would mean she encountered the Olympian NOT on the Port-Pic trail.

Do hikers just leave their backpacks somewhere for a couple of hours? Don’t you worry someone will rifle through it or even steal it?

 

[RickshawFan]

We can determine where she was based on when she was seen (3PM), where she was seen (in Spain) and how long it takes to hike from that location to the Port de Venasque / Summit trail options (30 minutes from witness).

She was witnessed one hour before she was at the summit, and it's a 30 minutes hike from the Port to the summit. Therefore, she was 30 minutes from the Port when she spoke with the witness.

On paper, the hike from Port to Pic might be 1/2 hour or 1 hour round trip, BUT.... ED might have decided she could do it faster than the guidebooks say. Or that the rule of thumb the Olympian used. Or that the rule of thumb our French blogger uses and recorded on his trip. And she might have hustled! And she might have been wrong! She very likely wasn't as fast as an Olympian, or our French blogger; she might be waay off or just a little; she could have tried to come down so fast, she made a mistake... (accidents are more likely on the way down).

So, we don't really know what the timing of her Port-Pic climb was.

 

[RedHaus]

I'm interested that you're dubious regarding Esther summiting the Pic de S twice. I am, really, too. Do you have an explanation for how a scenario arose whereby she only summited once?. Something to explain away second summit.

Hi @PeggyHenry. To answer your question, please see my post on page 13 of Thread #2, quoted here.... That is when I first grappled with this question.

"Location of ED's Encounter with Spanish Skier" - I think it was deep in Thread #1 where a poster (sorry, I can't recall who!) wondered where exactly on the (only) trail up to Pic de Sauvegarde ED encountered the Spanish skier. Why does this matter? IMO it matters because if it was below Port de Vanesque, it leaves open the possibility that that encounter does not necessarily mean ED summited the Pic that day (we know she did on 11/21 and took many pictures).

If I recall correctly that encounter occurred about an hour hike from the summit (please correct me if I'm wrong!). So it is possible that could put their encounter below the Port - would anyone know? The Spanish skier said ED continued up after their encounter. But do we really know how far up? And certainly if they met below the Port, IMO, ED may have hiked through the Port towards (or past) the Refuge de Vanesque rather than summiting the Pic again. And that would have put her on that challenging terrain towards the Refuge at mid-afternoon with much less risk.

I realize we have the phone transaction with DC about an hour later, and we believe that occurred from the summit of Pic de Sauvegarde. But what if ED was not actually on the summit, but within range of the cell tower on the summit? If that summit tower picked up the ping from another location, could ED have just sent DC a summit picture from later in the day on 11/21? Some here wonder if ED spent a few hours on the summit 11/21 to explain differences in the pics.

And even if ED didn't go directly through the Port after meeting the skier, could she have aborted her second summit attempt somewhere higher up? If so, IMO, she could have turned around and descended (to Port or Banasque, etc.)

I am not supposing why any of what I postulate here may have happened. I am just trying to look at the data a little differently to see if there are other scenarios that could emerge if we had more specific information on this location.

 

[otto]

I get it, Otto. And for the third time I agree with you. But you stated as fact that she has not been in France, and we just don’t know anything for certain, do we?

Based on official information that has been released, she started the hike on Nov 22. Nov 21 does not seem to be in question.

"We are actively looking for Ester Maria D., 37, of English nationality.

This hiker who left for the mountains in Luchonnais on Sunday 22 November had planned to return on Wednesday 25 November.

The sector envisaged for his hike extends from the port of Glère to the port of Vénasque (French and Spanish sides).

Anyone who has seen or passed this hiker is invited to contact the PGHM of Bagnères de Luchon at 05.61.79.28.36 or call 17.
Please feel free to share this post.

The sole purpose of this message is to safeguard human life. While we understand the emotion aroused by this behaviour during this time of confinement, please do not comment on it. We are here in an emergency situation."​

Pyrénées. Neuf jours après son dernier message, aucune trace de la randonneuse disparue en Haute-Garonne

 

[RickshawFan]

Pic de Sauvegarde trip #1 - was documented on Instagram on the evening of 21st.

Pic de Sauvegarde trip 2# - different clothing, message sent to Dan (and presumably a phone ping) and photos taken at a different time of day to trip 1.

On trip #2, while that may be true, we don't know if she did the message and the photo while offline (for whatever reason). The moment she stepped into a spot with cell service (or turned her phone on, or scheduled the posting), the photo/message would have posted live with a time stamp. Ergo, we only know what time it posted.

 

[Oregonmama]

I get it, Otto. And for the third time I agree with you. But you stated as fact that she has not been in France, and we just don’t know anything for certain, do we?

The timeline shows there is a very high chance that she was not in France. JMO

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Based on official information that has been released, she started the hike on Nov 22. Nov 21 does not seem to be in question.

"We are actively looking for Ester Maria D., 37, of English nationality.

This hiker who left for the mountains in Luchonnais on Sunday 22 November had planned to return on Wednesday 25 November.

The sector envisaged for his hike extends from the port of Glère to the port of Vénasque (French and Spanish sides).

Anyone who has seen or passed this hiker is invited to contact the PGHM of Bagnères de Luchon at 05.61.79.28.36 or call 17.
Please feel free to share this post.

The sole purpose of this message is to safeguard human life. While we understand the emotion aroused by this behaviour during this time of confinement, please do not comment on it. We are here in an emergency situation."​

Pyrénées. Neuf jours après son dernier message, aucune trace de la randonneuse disparue en Haute-Garonne

That’s from 5 weeks ago. We now know she was definitely in the same area on 21st, we just don’t know where she actually slept overnight. Personally, I’d favour the refuge on the road - Plan d’Estan / La Besurta - or even the van, somewhere on the Spanish side. Seems much more likely. Still not fact though.

And actually, it’s not even relevant. Because we know whatever happened, happened AFTER 3pm on 22nd. Where she was before then, and from which direction she came, had no bearing on what she did after reaching the summit.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Fair enough, but we don't have much choice but to trust information from the missing person. She posted a photo around 4PM on Nov 22 stating that she was at the summit.

It seems picky- but she didn’t post a photo at 4.00 (she didn’t post anything on the numerous SM platforms that she had)- she sent her partner a WhatsApp photo at 4.00. Assumptions have been drawn from this, but they aren’t necessarily accurate.

 

[otto]

On trip #2, while that may be true, we don't know if she did the message and the photo while offline (for whatever reason). The moment she stepped into a spot with cell service (or turned her phone on, or scheduled the posting), the photo/message would have posted live with a time stamp. Ergo, we only know what time it posted.

We know that there is solar panel and wifi mast at the summit. There is no wifi at the Refuge de Venasque. It makes sense that she sent the photo from the summit using the available wifi signal at the summit.

The timing of the witness (3PM) and trip plan (summit to refuge) are consistent with sending the photo from the summit.

"Miss Dingley had parked her camper van in Benasque, northern Spain – then hitched to Pic de Sauvegarde. She was seen by fellow hikers on November 22, when she also sent a final photo to Mr Colegate from the mountain top – a solar panel and communications mast reflected in her sunglasses."​

Partner of missing hiker slams 'wild theories' about disappearance

 

[HongKongPhooey]

I think we're getting a little tangled up here with the difference between something which is logical to presume, and something which is a confirmed fact.

There are so many interesting theories and suggestions on this thread, but very few actual facts.