Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #3

[The_Investigator]

Fair enough.

But reading thru his dossier, Esther is so careful, reliable, risk-adverse, predictable, and she prefers to keep in very frequent contact. She always lets them know her route.

But NOW he knows that route actually DID have good cell service. Yet no calls, texts, social media.

Either she didn’t get that far for some reason, or she was behaving quite out of her pattern and just not checking. Most of us who like frequent contact, would certainly be checking frequently to see if service improved.

So shouldn’t we assume that whatever happened, happened quickly, and in that area where she could not make contact.

Yes completely agree, have thought this all along. Have we a detailed topography of this small er area?

 

[Grouse]

The video call was relatively brief and could have been made with Esther under force/threat. Plus we don't know the content of that call. If reports are accurate, DC leans strongly towards involvement of someone else. We've discussed why he might believe this. Maybe the content of the call instilled this belief in him.

If there was a bad actor involved at that point it seems a bit risky to force her to make that call rather than just let the texts suffice. I can't see why someone would do that. But yes without knowing the details of the video call I guess it is a possibility. DC described it thus and I see no reason to doubt him "Our last conversation was totally loving and all smiles. She was so happy, and we were excited to see each other." Esther & Dan (see 14th December). Knowing her as long as he had I doubt he wouldn't have picked up on something if those smiles were forced.

 

[The_Investigator]

Fair enough.

But reading thru his dossier, Esther is so careful, reliable, risk-adverse, predictable, and she prefers to keep in very frequent contact. She always lets them know her route.

But NOW he knows that route actually DID have good cell service. Yet no calls, texts, social media.

Either she didn’t get that far for some reason, or she was behaving quite out of her pattern and just not checking. Most of us who like frequent contact, would certainly be checking frequently to see if service improved.

So shouldn’t we assume that whatever happened, happened quickly, and in that area where she could not make contact.

Yes completely agree, have thought this all along. Have we a detailed topography of this small er area?

If Esther arrived at the Refuge de Venasque, she should have left evidence that she was there. She was required to sign the attendance book and make a payment. Since there is no evidence that she was at the refuge, I think she must have had an accident between the Pic de Sauvegarde and the Refuge de Venasque.

Looking at the dossier, it seems that whomever put the information together wants the focus to be on the trail from the Refuge to the Port de Glere.

My question for her partner would be : does she follow the rules and sign-in, plus pay, at unmanned refuges? If it was her practice to stay without paying, that complicates the search.

No wifi at the refuge at any time of year at the refuge, so I'm guessing that her partner expected her to be in wifi range again later on Nov 23 as she climbed higher. I think this narrows down where she can be found - narrowed down even more when it is confirmed that she used the honour system to sign-in and pay.

"During unguarded periods, all of the FFCAM shelters keep an accessible and open part, “the winter refuge”, in order to play their role of shelter and relief.

The use of the “winter” part has been modified in order to contribute to the fight against the Covid-19 pandemic. To use this space, you must bring your sleeping bag, kitchen equipment, your masks and hand gel. Wearing a mask is mandatory, in this place and in the presence of several people, as well as respect for barrier gestures. An attendance book in the winter refuge is to be completed upon your arrival.

You will be able to enjoy the FFCAM shelters in complete safety, without forgetting to pay for your overnight stay, which is essential to maintain the services offered."​

View attachment 279295
​

Accueil, Refuge de Vénasque

Perhaps the pen or pencil was missing and she had nothing to write with??? I only carry a 1/2 size biro and a couple of notepad pieces of paper for emergency notes. Never used the pen, perhaps it's dried up, and perhaps if she had a pen/pencil, she may have lost it and not realised.

 

[The_Investigator]

How would they pay? Yep, there would be a box. And you'd better pay, unless you're selfish, or at least that's what the website seems to be suggesting.

I've been places where I didn't have the correct amount, so payed more at the next place, i.e. only have a large note, so payed the wrong but a larger amount at the next place (all goes into the same pot eventually for the sum total of refuges). I do know a serious hiker who never pays as he considers himself as a hippy-nomad,... and paying is for conformists. Perhaps why I often overpay to make up for people like him.

 

[stmarysmead]

What is it about this case that keeps pulling me back to this thread? On the face of it, this is just the tragic story of a lovely young woman who had an accident in the mountains and has yet to be recovered. On the face of it, there should be no mystery.

But the pull for me, is that something is...off. Actually, a number of things. According to Dan, she communicated her route. The terrain of that route looks so bare and bleak...yet no trace of her or anything she owned has been found.

According to Dan, she was a faithful and frequent communicator...looking to touch base with him and her Mother and share encouragement and just loving human contact. Yet the route where she would have hiked, 0nly had poor service in a relatively short area. That bleak and mostly barren area shows no trace of her. Yet she made no attempt to contact any0ne as she would have traversed areas where cell service was good.

Great point that her lack of knowledge about whether there was a winter room at the Refuge certainly belies the point of her careful preparations. Also, her choice of clothing colors and backpack colors.

I also find it curious about making plans with strangers so often. Is this common in the sport? Since authorities do not have her phone, no one can know if she was contacted by “new friends” to switch up her plans and hike with them.

The sequence of texts and the last phone call...just sound so strange to me. If you text someone that you are leaving...why do you check back in JUST a minutes time...to report you haven’t left? And then...call fora minutes conversation?

And finally, the text telling Dan not to worry if he didn’t hear from her. Was THAT alone sufficient to explain THREE days of silence?

 

[Grouse]

What is it about this case that keeps pulling me back to this thread? On the face of it, this is just the tragic story of a lovely young woman who had an accident in the mountains and has yet to be recovered. On the face of it, there should be no mystery.

The pull for me was due to reading their story on the BBC website and then seeing she'd disappeared about a week later. It really shocked me and it led to me signing up on WS.

The sequence of texts and the last phone call...just sound so strange to me. If you text someone that you are leaving...why do you check back in JUST a minutes time...to report you haven’t left? And then...call fora minutes conversation?

Although I said upthread I didn't see those messages with any sinister implications, I can see why they might seem a bit strange especially "I'm heading off now" "Still in the same area". I wonder if the video call a minute later was just made on impulse, knowing she might be out of signal for quite a while (she'd no way of knowing at that time that the signal improved further on after the refuge, which DC only discovered later).

ETA: actually on rereading that part in the dossier the message below strikes me as odd in that it seems it's the first time she's telling him her plans for the day after. This seems a bit last minute as she realises she might be out of contact. It does make the routes seem less pre-planned than I had thought.

"16:06: “Still in the same area. Tomorrow heading for Port de le Glere or something spelt like that. Might dip into France. Hoping Refuge Venasque has a winter room. Keep you posted when can xx”

BBM​

 

[patCee]

actually on rereading that part in the dossier the message below strikes me as odd in that it seems it's the first time she's telling him her plans for the day after. This seems a bit last minute as she realises she might be out of contact. It does make the routes seem less pre-planned than I had thought.
"16:06: “Still in the same area. Tomorrow heading for Port de le Glere or something spelt like that. Might dip into France. Hoping Refuge Venasque has a winter room. Keep you posted when can xx”

The route was suggested by the mystery hiker. Maybe she was inspired about it from him and decided to hike it herself without looking too closely at what was involved in the route. A simple internet search would have reassured her about access to the refuge at that time. DC mentions a 'handful' of more difficult areas that were thoroughly searched. Never mind the overnights, on her own, that were necessary.

 

[axelcruze]

I read about this case recently in my local paper, I live in a nearby town and I can understand why they may be upset about returning to cold bleak North East England in mind of lockdown and Brexit. They were apprehensive about future no doubt, then the solo hikes indicate EDs determination perhaps to make the best of the clear winter days. Reading the dossier, it is clear that we cannot rely 100% on this information, we do not know if ED posted the messages and without mobile mast, the location data is not known or unreliable. We do not have information to go on of the identity of the mystery stranger. If it was ED sending the sms, was her final message indicating a final goodbye , it cannot be ruled out as voluntary disappearance i.e. Meeting someone, making a connection, maybe wanting to avoid a hard break up/unwanting to return to UK or maybe wanting New experiences and to meet a local perhaps - certainly this has happened before and is the best case scenario for ED imo. The other thought is that if hopefully we are assuming she is still alive, based on conditions, is a kidnap/captor motive particularly in lockdown with few people around and therefore increased opportunity. Unfortunately, it seems that other than accident, the outlook atm is a range of uncomfortable scenarios.

 

[patCee]

It's been said that the hiking culture there is supportive and taking help and lifts from people is 'normal'. Nevertheless I find it unwise for a women to hike where its necessary to bivouac alone. If a predatory character was around, they would think, however briefly, about whether the sleeper who hikes would be a fit/tough opponent, or have a knife etc. A self protective consideration. For a women bedded down for the night, would seem less so. No matter how we all aim for equality there are situations where that just doesn't cut it.

 

[sundaaaay]

Considering the cell coverage as you descend into France, I’m beginning to think she returned to Spain after the pic and something happened there. To me it’s starting to be the most logical explanation as we know coverage was bad on that side. She may have had second doubts after reading the news about covid in France at the summit and decided she didn’t want to risk getting in to trouble. I think ED seems like a good person but she’s no doubt very trusting of others and that’s not always a good thing obviously.

 

[sundaaaay]

The dossier has actually provided a great deal of new information and I think the phone coverage could be key to cracking this case. We know she kept in contact a lot so it’s likely whatever incident occurred, happened where there was no coverage.

She had already spent one night in a refuge and was asking for food which tells me she may have not been happy with the food she brought with her. She may very well have been keen to return to the camper van.

I understand that a mountain accident is the most likely scenario but it is strange no trace was found during the search and there’s definitely a small but significant possibility foul play is involved if ED is a lone female in a rush to get back to her campervan with her head torch descending the trail she would have been very visible in the distance. And showing zero reluctance to ask strangers for help makes me wonder about this scenario.

 

[RedHaus]

Considering the cell coverage as you descend into France, I’m beginning to think she returned to Spain after the pic and something happened there. To me it’s starting to be the most logical explanation as we know coverage was bad on that side. She may have had second doubts after reading the news about covid in France at the summit and decided she didn’t want to risk getting in to trouble. I think ED seems like a good person but she’s no doubt very trusting of others and that’s not always a good thing obviously.

Yes, Sundaay. I realized after I sent my post last night with the five possible reasons ED may never have "dipped into France" as she told DC she might, that a sixth reason could be she decided against the risk of breaking the French Covid lockdown rules and instead headed back towards Banasque on 22/11.

 

[RedHaus]

BBM There's no trail from the summit to the Port de Glere without descending to the Hospice de Benasque.
Regarding starting into the hike from the summit to the Port de Glere, what do you mean? That she should have hiked to the refuge on the 21st? View attachment 279361Le Port de Venasque

BBM
You know, otto and RickshawFan, now that you bring this point up, I wonder if ED's 21/11 descent from the summit of Pic de Sauvegarde to stay at the Cabane de la Besurtas was another indication of ambivalence of her planned multi-day solo trek. What if she had planned on starting her "loop" into France on 21/11 and then aborted that plan for some reason. As well, her late ascent back to the summit on 22/11 could possibly indicate further hesitation since she got there so late in the day (~4pm). It is hard to figure out the logic for that sequence of events and the timing of them. I'm not locking into the aborted-her-trip idea, but I am seeing more data to support it.

 

[RedHaus]

Another scenario I’ve considered is that if she was hitching in the dark, did she get hit by a vehicle......

snipped for focus
Hatty, I have wondered this too. I am not completely clear how much of the trek back to ED's van in Banasque from the Pic de Sauvegarde trail head was on a paved road vs. trail, but I have imagined there is a good amount of paved road. Hence the idea of hitching a ride, especially if it was getting late and dark. But, like you, I have also thought of all the time spent on the Susan McLean case looking for her on the side of the narrow road where she had walked. Were the side of the roads searched for ED?

 

[RickshawFan]

I thought of a card payment as it didn't seem likely there would be a means of leaving cash at the refuge. Myself, I don't keep card details on my phone, as I worry about losing it. If set on my plan I'd have paid in advance. Nowadays many (younger) just use their phones for everything, even at the supermarket checkout.

Well, that's true. I rarely use cash any more. However, I would expect a backcountry shelter to be "cash only" if there's no wifi. With wifi, I'd expect "cash or charge".
In the US, we have the honor system at many publicly-owned campgrounds. The main exception are super-busy campgrounds in national parks/state parks. The busiest "honor system" campgrounds have "campground hosts" these days, usually motorhome owners who get to use the camp spot in return for chores. The host does not collect money AT ALL (the odds of embezzlement or risk to the host would be colossal).
So, when you get to a campground with this kind of set up (and all federal campgrounds without hosts), you pick your spot and within half an hour or so register at the "virtual ranger" booth. You fill out a registration form with ID info, and the cash/check goes into a tube made out of metal pipe.
Backcountry parking lots at trailheads are similar.
I was imagining honor-system refuges have a setup like this: a "virtual ranger", where you fill out a form and insert cash into a pipe.

 

[RickshawFan]

BBM

There's no trail from the summit to the Port de Glere without descending to the Hospice de Benasque.

Regarding starting into the hike from the summit to the Port de Glere, what do you mean? That she should have hiked to the refuge on the 21st?

View attachment 279361

Le Port de Venasque

BBM
Whatever plan ED said she intended on the 22nd at the top of the Pic.... why didn't she start on the 21st at the top of the Pic?

 

[RickshawFan]

Reference the fruit - See m) on page 20 of DC’s information pack. It says that if ED felt she had a good rapport with someone she would sometimes ask them for fruit. This was not “abnormal behaviour for Esther”.

Still seems odd to me!

Why didn't she ask for chocolate, then?

 

[axelcruze]

The dossier has actually provided a great deal of new information and I think the phone coverage could be key to cracking this case. We know she kept in contact a lot so it’s likely whatever incident occurred, happened where there was no coverage.

She had already spent one night in a refuge and was asking for food which tells me she may have not been happy with the food she brought with her. She may very well have been keen to return to the camper van.

I understand that a mountain accident is the most likely scenario but it is strange no trace was found during the search and there’s definitely a small but significant possibility foul play is involved if ED is a lone female in a rush to get back to her campervan with her head torch descending the trail she would have been very visible in the distance. And showing zero reluctance to ask strangers for help makes me wonder about this scenario.

In a case like this with no eyeballs, the information and any mobile location data will offer the best chance to narrow it down and conduct search / enquiries and yes someone knowing of lone hiker / chancer may look out for headtorch at this time.

 

[RickshawFan]

Sure, but why are we rejecting information that is clearly stated on the website for the Refuge de Venasque? Is there a valid, authored link somewhere with information that clearly contradicts information that is stated on the landing page of the refuge website?
I wouldn't reject any information.
My point was that, regardless of any stated rules, for pracical purposes it could be possible to spend a night alone at a refuge out of season and no one would know.
I really have no strong views one way or the other, I'm just trying to paint a picture of what the refuges can be like for those on this board who aren't familiar with them.

This is my sense of it, too, although I've not overnighted at an alpine refuge. If, for instance, weather came in, and you could shelter in a Refuge, and didn't have any cash on you...... no reasonable person would expect you to stay out in the weather.
My guess is, too, that off-season the Refuges weren't policed regularly for scofflaws; there would be no economic or practical advantage to doing that. And during COVID, no one is supposed to be out there.

 

[RickshawFan]

Can someone point me to the recent document in French? I'd love to look at it.

I commented on it when it first came out, so I have to go back through my posts. Even in English, I find the gendarme's statement not to be neutral, especially in the word "preference" and in the number of words used to elaborate on the simple notion that this is an LE/SAR operation and those don't involve non-credentialed searchers. He could have even said, "I can only speak for our professional team."