Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #4

[SpanishMossAntiques]

I've been reading through her SM on FB, and she certainly seems like she was profoundly depressed- enough so that she apparently had a difficult time getting out of the house, and may not have done so without her dogs. Just look at her post from October 21st on her FB page - OMG, that sounds like someone who is really struggling... Also, she did not write anything in FB between July and October - why?

Anyway, so of you who have seen my posts on various cases before know I used to work as a park ranger - and I can tell you that a lot of people 1. die accidentally while hiking, bike riding, etc - though most of those I'd dealt with males; older ones who fell and struck their head and died later (and refused medical care, only to go home and lie down to sleep because they had gotten very tired - they wind up with a hematoma that were not aware of and never wake up, and most often middle-aged males who were out-of-shape and doing something strenuous (there was this one hill that they'd hike up not realizing how strenuous it actually was, since the grade appeared gentle but it was actually very very long) and they'd have a heart attack, and older men who just died from heart failure while walking around, and...

2. Suicides; we had one person who left a trail of sticks and rocks that we found that led us to the body - he had sat down at the base of a huge oak tree and shot himself in the head. A woman died when she burned herself to death in her car. Still others just took pills and went to sleep. Any time I would be clearing the woods at sunset and there would be a car parked with no one in it I would worry. Especially if I made announcements over my cruiser's PA, and I'd come back 30 minutes later and the car was still there, unoccupied. After 1/2 hour past sunset I'd have to start documenting all my activities to find the missing person - at 45 minutes I'd need to start patrolling the trails, often by foot (I had to carry a lot of equipment with me, so this could be a slow process). At 1 1/2 hours we'd have to start a formal search using night-vision equipment, drones, helicopters, numerous S&R personnel, etc...

3. There was a sharply-curved road going downhill next to the preserve, and the speed limit was 25mph. Despite heavy enforcement of the speed limit by us and the sheriff, many people would speed - and every 6 months we'd have someone drive through the vehicle barrier and usually head-first into a tree. I worked the night shift, and I would always stop near that heavily wooded area and listen for groups of coyotes howling - which was usually a sign that someone had crashed and was dead, and the animals found the body.

My own view is that Esther did not commit suicide although it probably remains a line of enquiry. She had some history of depression although we don’t know how severe or what type. If she was suicidal and chose to take her life then I don’t see why using sleeping pills etc would not have been a considered option. Preferable to jumping off a ledge into a lake .. a lot more peaceful perhaps. It would have been difficult perhaps for her to get the amount of pills required, but if she did have access to them then I imagine she would have taken herself off to some peaceful spot. I still don’t think that Esther committed suicide but until we hear more news it’s an option I guess.

 

[Grouse]

<snipped for focus and BBM>
Sure, but suicidal people put some time into thinking about the easiest way to achieve the goal. Pills at home or topple off a mountain, but climbing a mountain to get drugged out of one's mind seems complicated, like a contradiction.

Did you ever read the David Lytton case?

 

[stmarysmead]

I've been reading through her SM on FB, and she certainly seems like she was profoundly depressed- enough so that she apparently had a difficult time getting out of the house, and may not have done so without her dogs. Just look at her post from October 21st on her FB page - OMG, that sounds like someone who is really struggling... Also, she did not write anything in FB between July and October - why?

Anyway, so of you who have seen my posts on various cases before know I used to work as a park ranger - and I can tell you that a lot of people 1. die accidentally while hiking, bike riding, etc - though most of those I'd dealt with males; older ones who fell and struck their head and died later (and refused medical care, only to go home and lie down to sleep because they had gotten very tired - they wind up with a hematoma that were not aware of and never wake up, and most often middle-aged males who were out-of-shape and doing something strenuous (there was this one hill that they'd hike up not realizing how strenuous it actually was, since the grade appeared gentle but it was actually very very long) and they'd have a heart attack, and older men who just died from heart failure while walking around, and...

2. Suicides; we had one person who left a trail of sticks and rocks that we found that led us to the body - he had sat down at the base of a huge oak tree and shot himself in the head. A woman died when she burned herself to death in her car. Still others just took pills and went to sleep. Any time I would be clearing the woods at sunset and there would be a car parked with no one in it I would worry. Especially if I made announcements over my cruiser's PA, and I'd come back 30 minutes later and the car was still there, unoccupied. After 1/2 hour past sunset I'd have to start documenting all my activities to find the missing person - at 45 minutes I'd need to start patrolling the trails, often by foot (I had to carry a lot of equipment with me, so this could be a slow process). At 1 1/2 hours we'd have to start a formal search using night-vision equipment, drones, helicopters, numerous S&R personnel, etc...

3. There was a sharply-curved road going downhill next to the preserve, and the speed limit was 25mph. Despite heavy enforcement of the speed limit by us and the sheriff, many people would speed - and every 6 months we'd have someone drive through the vehicle barrier and usually head-first into a tree. I worked the night shift, and I would always stop near that heavily wooded area and listen for groups of coyotes howling - which was usually a sign that someone had crashed and was dead, and the animals found the body.

Thank you so much for your insightful post and for joining this discussion! You bring a unique and valuable perspective.

 

[PeggyHenry]

DBM

Ive got to know BBM - (bolded by me?) but cant work out DBM (d by me) - thanks in advance for someone to explain as cant find a glossary

 

[stmarysmead]

Ive got to know BBM - (bolded by me?) but cant work out DBM (d by me) - thanks in advance for someone to explain as cant find a glossary

Deleted by me....took me awhile too.

 

[Grouse]

Ive got to know BBM - (bolded by me?) but cant work out DBM (d by me) - thanks in advance for someone to explain as cant find a glossary

Think you asked me this once before Peggy and I told you what it meant and included a link to Websleuths Lingo, but it got removed for being off topic (maybe before you saw it?) so I won't post it again.

Basically (and to make this post less off topic) I removed the content of the post as on rereading it I thought it came across (unintended) a little insensitive/irrelevant.

ETA: seems mean not to include the link so here you go Websleuths Lingo .

 

[ZaZara]

In the interview with their college that I posted the other day, it was revealed by Dan that Esther has wanted to live this itinerant lifestyle since college. She pursued numerous degrees but I haven’t found any reference to a job, rather than a brief stint at “personal training.”

She excelled as a student but is there anything we can find that she was ever able to function among other working people in a job?

RSBM & BBM


Can we please put this beast to rest? At last? She worked her behind off in her twenties, ignoring her health to the point of breakdown.

From the introduction Meet Esther on their website:

Meet Esther | Esther & Dan - Adventuring Together - Life, Love, Health & Travel


Being one to always push myself to do what was expected, namely get a good career, make money, pay bills; I was in desperate need to slow down and learn what it meant to look after myself. Cheesecake, pizza and late nights juggling 3 jobs were not the way to health and happiness.

(...)

What followed was a decade of more study (Masters degree), working (Durham and Cambridge University, starting my own business, paying of bills, juggling jobs, self-employment and much more. There were the many good times too. Trips to the seaside, Lake District, evenings with friends, family visits to Holland and games of cards. But not knowing any different, I followed the crowd and got busy trying to carve out a career for myself.

BBM

 

[Grouse]

<snipped for focus and BBM>
Can we please put this beast to rest? At last? She worked her behind off in her twenties, ignoring her health to the point of breakdown.

This ^^^^

 

[stmarysmead]

RSBM & BBM


Can we please put this beast to rest? At last? She worked her behind off in her twenties, ignoring her health to the point of breakdown.

From the introduction Meet Esther on their website:

Meet Esther | Esther & Dan - Adventuring Together - Life, Love, Health & Travel


Being one to always push myself to do what was expected, namely get a good career, make money, pay bills; I was in desperate need to slow down and learn what it meant to look after myself. Cheesecake, pizza and late nights juggling 3 jobs were not the way to health and happiness.

(...)

What followed was a decade of more study (Masters degree), working (Durham and Cambridge University, starting my own business, paying of bills, juggling jobs, self-employment and much more. There were the many good times too. Trips to the seaside, Lake District, evenings with friends, family visits to Holland and games of cards. But not knowing any different, I followed the crowd and got busy trying to carve out a career for myself.

BBM

Yes, I must yield the point, you are correct...she does say she had three jobs. Something is still off to me, but I must, by our terms here, accept Esther’s explanation. I d0 think that their interviews...marketing pieces...do tend to vary and seem IMO somewhat exaggerated to create a narrative to m0netize.

With her degrees shouldn’t she have been able to get ONE good j0b and not have to have three? Just wondering....

 

[Grouse]

<snipped for focus>
With her degrees shouldn’t she have been able to get ONE good j0b and not have to have three? Just wondering....

The poor girl can't do right for wrong. First she was in the wrong for not having a job, now she's in the wrong for having too many!

 

[RedHaus]

Why make absolute judgement on it and dogmatically rule it out? It's perfectly possible. She wouldn't know the perfect spot until she found it, but given Sauvegarde's auspicious name, and the fact that it's one of the highest mountains around, and within easy drive/hike of home, it could hardly have been random. The route is obvious from the first glance of a map of the area so it doesn't seem likely that she heard about it only from a stranger.

For what it's worth, in my own case, I was thinking of the Utah Canyonlands and I fully expected to hike around several days before finding the right spot with the intention, in the process, of inducing terminal dehydration which I gather is a very serene and painless way to go. Anyway, don't worry - that plan is on indefinite hold. I mention it simply to illustrate to those who have never previously imagined such a thing that certain mental states are possible.

Thank you @CharlesSwann for sharing your perspective and personal experiences. And I am happy to hear you are OK now. For what its worth (FWIW) there are a few others of us who have carefully compiled the available data into a cogent suicide theory on this forum to explain ED's disappearance. That includes @Hatty, @stmarysmead and myself. Sorry if I am missing others who supported any of those ideas... there are many posts and many sleuthers on this case!

Anyhow you may want to find those musings, likely on Thread #2 or #3. Since I posted my suicide theory for ED several weeks ago, I have refined in my own mind, how she might have died. If, IMO, she committed suicide, she could have descended from the col thru the port de vanesque at dusk and simply walked as far as she could into boum de vanesque and drowned. Weighed down by her "heavy" pack (per the skier she encountered) her body would have sunk into the deep.

Whether an accident or a suicide, many if us are hoping that lake will be searched when it is safe to.

All that said, I have a few other theories for ED's disappearance that are still rattling around in my mind. I try to keep an open mind about how the limited data we have fit together.

 

[RickshawFan]

There was never any question of our asking.

We would pay for farinha and "tucupí", a kind of spicy dip.

We were often offered a free meal.

From experience we knew what items they would appreciate - these are communities without much communication. They welcomed watches, tennis shoes etc. Nowadays they have mobiles and Whatsapp..

I'm sure as much as I can visualize this trip, I would never approximate how awesome it was. I am envious!
IMO, back to the topic at hand, it's another instance where food is exchanged as a point of community and connection, but it is never solicited. Soliciting it actually severs contact. That's why I think ED's asking for food is striking: something else is going on there, and it's not about connection.

 

[RickshawFan]

FELL IN? Surely you jest.

No, no jesting. I have this fear every time I look down a privy hole and see the gunk. It comes after the moment when I worry about dropping my car keys into it. It's called casalatrinophobia.

Seriously, it would be all too easy to stand up suddenly, get dizzy, and have a serious accident. Maybe there was black ice on the floor, maybe you dropped your priceless 3 sheets of toilet paper...

 

[Grouse]

I'm sure as much as I can visualize this trip, I would never approximate how awesome it was. I am envious!
IMO, back to the topic at hand, it's another instance where food is exchanged as a point of community and connection, but it is never solicited. Soliciting it actually severs contact. That's why I think ED's asking for food is striking: something else is going on there, and it's not about connection.

Maybe we can explore the asking for food thing a bit more. We seem to have three camps on here.

1) those that think it OK, just a means of connecting
2) those that think it is bit odd, maybe a bit of a concern about ED's well being
3) those that disapprove

All perspectives that we see being brought to the table are valuable.

As I've probably made clear I am definitely not in camp 3. I'm somewhere between 1 and 2. It's a way of connecting I have no doubt. But it is unusual. If I had met the girl on a hike and she asked me for food, I'd gladly offer it if I had some spare. If I didn't have any, or I really needed what I had, I think would probably politely decline, but I'd be a bit concerned and I'd be asking her first if she was OK and trying to judge if she really was before making the decision. I certainly wouldn't ignore her. Our camp 3ers may think I'm irresponsible for not stoutly condemning this activity, but that's just how I am, I can't change that I'm afraid.

<edited to correct minor error on the category numbering>

 

[RickshawFan]

I've been reading through her SM on FB, and she certainly seems like she was profoundly depressed- enough so that she apparently had a difficult time getting out of the house, and may not have done so without her dogs. Just look at her post from October 21st on her FB page - OMG, that sounds like someone who is really struggling... Also, she did not write anything in FB between July and October - why?

Anyway, so of you who have seen my posts on various cases before know I used to work as a park ranger - and I can tell you that a lot of people 1. die accidentally while hiking, bike riding, etc - though most of those I'd dealt with males; older ones who fell and struck their head and died later (and refused medical care, only to go home and lie down to sleep because they had gotten very tired - they wind up with a hematoma that were not aware of and never wake up, and most often middle-aged males who were out-of-shape and doing something strenuous (there was this one hill that they'd hike up not realizing how strenuous it actually was, since the grade appeared gentle but it was actually very very long) and they'd have a heart attack, and older men who just died from heart failure while walking around, and...

2. Suicides; we had one person who left a trail of sticks and rocks that we found that led us to the body - he had sat down at the base of a huge oak tree and shot himself in the head. A woman died when she burned herself to death in her car. Still others just took pills and went to sleep. Any time I would be clearing the woods at sunset and there would be a car parked with no one in it I would worry. Especially if I made announcements over my cruiser's PA, and I'd come back 30 minutes later and the car was still there, unoccupied. After 1/2 hour past sunset I'd have to start documenting all my activities to find the missing person - at 45 minutes I'd need to start patrolling the trails, often by foot (I had to carry a lot of equipment with me, so this could be a slow process). At 1 1/2 hours we'd have to start a formal search using night-vision equipment, drones, helicopters, numerous S&R personnel, etc...

3. There was a sharply-curved road going downhill next to the preserve, and the speed limit was 25mph. Despite heavy enforcement of the speed limit by us and the sheriff, many people would speed - and every 6 months we'd have someone drive through the vehicle barrier and usually head-first into a tree. I worked the night shift, and I would always stop near that heavily wooded area and listen for groups of coyotes howling - which was usually a sign that someone had crashed and was dead, and the animals found the body.

What a helpful post. Now I have a feel for what this looks like in reality.
I do notice that although there are an alarming number of suicides in our backcountry spaces, the majority are accidents of some kind, or "natural causes", or a combination of both. It's easy to forget that a benign-looking trail in a beautiful setting can invite one to one's death. IMO that's what happened to ED, whether she subconsciously put herself in harm's way, ended up there by accident, or both.
Overall, I'm in the camp of having a death wish, but maybe as a setting for an accident, not a plan.

 

[10ofRods]

Hmm. Surely it's the calmest and least traumatic kind of 'self-euthanasia' there is.
And while I'm prepared to believe that it's a bit of cliché in the movies (eg. Shirley McLaine in The Apartment) the fact is, lots of people surely do it, especially hyper-emotional people.
I'm not sure how you can rule it out. In any case, it's rather more plausible than falling into a latrine or dying of malnutrition a couple of hours from the road.

No one has proposed she died of malnutrition. No one has proposed she fell into a latrine.

You have proposed she may have committed suicide via overdose, though.

As to suicide methods, the literature is vast. Every year, people travel to Yosemite and Grand Canyon (and other natural places) to kill themselves in various ways. People travel to the Golden Gate Bridge to jump off of it. My point is that there's an entire cluster of suicides in nature. We've had two in my county in the last six months (jumping off the pier or rocks into the stormy ocean).

The thing about death by nature (and I'm not suggesting that Esther did this) is that it may never be fully resolved as a suicide. Sometimes, only the close family really knows what was going on. The judgment call on whether something is even a suicide is much more difficult. Did that woman who just fell, almost inexplicably, from an unusual place at Yosemite Falls...plan suicide? We will never know. It will be classified as an accident (and is so classified right now - it happened last week).

But it's a very different experience for the family, don't you think? How could death by drugs be peaceful if you know your family will be distraught at your suicide? I don't get that. Whereas, falling off a cliff while hiking, as this woman in Yosemite just did, is terribly sad, but not as psychologically difficult for the family as death by pills. IMO.

Further, some people have life insurance and want their families to get it. That's the theory behind the probable suicide of the man in Arches NP (it is classified as hyperthermia, but people who knew him think it was likely a deliberate act).

There is also suicidal behavior, in contrast to suicidality. High risk behavior, such as drifting or mountain climbing, has been a topic in the psychiatric (and other) literature for more than 100 years. High risk behaviors have many variables.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Since the food request is continuing to be discussed...

The main reason I think asking others for food is odd or inappropriate is because of the reasonable assumption that the askees have, wanting to minimize their own weight burden, only brought what they themselves will need, perhaps including some buffer of emergency extra rations. Under that reasonable assumption, I would, barring emergency, find it rude and inappropriate to ask a hiker for some of their own ration.

On the other hand we've read descriptions of ED apparently pushing herself to do just this. I have no idea how to rationalize that.

There is, however, one situation (again, barring emergency) when it seems less callous to ask a passing hiker for food, and that is when the other hiker is about done with their hike. Once they are approaching the trailhead, it might reasonably be assumed that any food they still carry is extra, at least in terms of survival on the trail.

This is why I was previously asking how near the trailhead the skier was.

I understand from responses to my earlier question that the skier was NOT at the very end of his hike, so I recognize this thought isn't applicable to ED's case, but I did want to fully explain my own thinking about it.

 

[Grouse]

<snipped for focus>
But it's a very different experience for the family, don't you think? How could death by drugs be peaceful if you know your family will be distraught at your suicide? I don't get that.

Maybe you don't get it because you are fortunate enough to have never been in that position, and I hope that is the case. And if you haven't then you cannot possibly understand how it feels, or what logic is involved, no matter how educated you are or how much literature you have read.

There can't be many forms of suicide that won't upset the family. Not to mention the people who discover the body, and others who may get involved such as train drivers who are haunted by those who jump on the track.

Making it appear as an accident would appear to be the kindest, but I don't imagine most people who are in such a state of mind will be able to organise and execute that successfully.

There are no easy explanations or solutions. Sadly.

 

[SpanishMossAntiques]

I've been reading through her SM on FB, and she certainly seems like she was profoundly depressed- enough so that she apparently had a difficult time getting out of the house, and may not have done so without her dogs. Just look at her post from October 21st on her FB page - OMG, that sounds like someone who is really struggling... Also, she did not write anything in FB between July and October - why?

Anyway, so of you who have seen my posts on various cases before know I used to work as a park ranger - and I can tell you that a lot of people 1. die accidentally while hiking, bike riding, etc - though most of those I'd dealt with males; older ones who fell and struck their head and died later (and refused medical care, only to go home and lie down to sleep because they had gotten very tired - they wind up with a hematoma that were not aware of and never wake up), and most often middle-aged males who were out-of-shape and doing something strenuous (there was this one hill that they'd hike up not realizing how strenuous it actually was, since the grade appeared gentle but it was actually very very long) and they'd have a heart attack, and older men who just died from heart failure while walking around, and...

2. Suicides; we had one person who left a trail of sticks and rocks that we found that led us to the body - he had sat down at the vase of a huge oak tree and shot himself in the head. A woman died when she burned herself to death in her car. Still others just took pills and went to sleep. Any time I would be clearing the woods at sunset and there would be a car parked with no one in it I would worry. Especially if I made announcements over my cruiser's PA, and I'd come back 30 minutes later and the car was still there, unoccupied. After 1/2 hour past sunset I'd have to start documenting all my activities to find the missing person - at 45 minutes I'd need to start patrolling the trails, often by foot (I had to carry a lot of equipment with me, so this could be a slow process). At 1 1/2 hours we'd have to start a formal search using night-vision equipment, drones, helicopters, numerous S&R personnel, etc...

3. There was a sharply-curved road going downhill next to the preserve, and the speed limit was 25mph. Despite heavy enforcement of the speed limit by us and the sheriff, many people would speed - and every 6 months we'd have someone drive through the vehicle barrier and usually head-first into a tree. I worked the night shift, and I would always stop near that heavily wooded area and listen for groups of coyotes howling - which was usually a sign that someone had crashed and was dead, and the animals found the body.

My own view is that Esther did not commit suicide although it probably remains a line of enquiry. She had some history of depression although we don’t know how severe or what type. If she was suicidal and chose to take her life then I don’t see why using sleeping pills etc would not have been a considered option. Preferable to jumping off a ledge into a lake .. a lot more peaceful perhaps. It would have been difficult perhaps for her to get the amount of pills required, but if she did have access to them then I imagine she would have taken herself off to some peaceful spot. I still don’t think that Esther committed suicide but until we hear more news it’s an option I guess.

 

[Rush4087]

Thank you @CharlesSwann for sharing your perspective and personal experiences. And I am happy to hear you are OK now. For what its worth (FWIW) there are a few others of us who have carefully compiled the available data into a cogent suicide theory on this forum to explain ED's disappearance. That includes @Hatty, @stmarysmead and myself. Sorry if I am missing others who supported any of those ideas... there are many posts and many sleuthers on this case!

Anyhow you may want to find those musings, likely on Thread #2 or #3. Since I posted my suicide theory for ED several weeks ago, I have refined in my own mind, how she might have died. If, IMO, she committed suicide, she could have descended from the col thru the port de vanesque at dusk and simply walked as far as she could into boum de vanesque and drowned. Weighed down by her "heavy" pack (per the skier she encountered) her body would have sunk into the deep.

Whether an accident or a suicide, many if us are hoping that lake will be searched when it is safe to.

All that said, I have a few other theories for ED's disappearance that are still rattling around in my mind. I try to keep an open mind about how the limited data we have fit together.

I also think suicide is likely (3, #851), but I don't think it involved a lake. I think she will eventually be found in Spain, and well off trail (I don't think she ever went through Port de Venasque). Jmo