Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #6

[Auntie Cipation]

I didn't realize her skull had been found -- how long ago did that happen?

I noticed this article on CNN today about a bone being identified as hers, with no mention of the skull being previously found, so I'm a bit confused:

Esther Dingley's remains found in Pyrenees, eight months after her disappearance - CNN

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I didn't realize her skull had been found -- how long ago did that happen?

I noticed this article on CNN today about a bone being identified as hers, with no mention of the skull being previously found, so I'm a bit confused:

Esther Dingley's remains found in Pyrenees, eight months after her disappearance - CNN

I don’t think it was a full skull, but there was some hair attached and Esther’s family was asked for dental records. The authorities haven’t given much more info than that.

Esther Dingley's DNA and dental records to be sent to France after bones found | ITV News

Esther Dingley: family grieve after skull is confirmed as lost hiker’s | News | The Times

 

[Grouse]

I wonder what the Saint-Gaudens gendarm meant by stating that the bones (skull and animal bones) had "certainly stayed in a cavity." The French original text is: "Jean-Marc Bordinaro, le commandant en second de la compagnie de gendarmerie de Saint-Gaudens, précisant qu’ils avaient séjourné « certainement dans une cavité ». To me cavity could mean buried (by animal or human), or just that they had been in a hole, depression or crevice. I think he was explaining their sudden surprising appearance, but possibly it was their actual appearance (eg stained). Forensics will tell.

Yes I had assumed that meant a crevice or similar. I wonder if the animal bones that were also present alongside the skull fragment might have some relevance in determining where they all came from, maybe from chemical analysis? Think this is getting into forensic anthropology territory.

 

[Mel79]

I didn't realize her skull had been found -- how long ago did that happen?

I noticed this article on CNN today about a bone being identified as hers, with no mention of the skull being previously found, so I'm a bit confused:

Esther Dingley's remains found in Pyrenees, eight months after her disappearance - CNN

As I understand it, the "bone" was all along the top part of a skull with hair. The other bones were animal bones.

 

[Herat]

I'm surprised that nothing else of her or her gear has been yet been found.

I'd think Dan would be up there day and night with a drone searching every crevice, canyon, nook and cranny.

And there must be other people regularly enjoying those trails in the summer weather.

 

[Herat]

As I understand it, the "bone" was all along the top part of a skull with hair. The other bones were animal bones.

From the brief description it was a piece of bone from the skull that would have had enough teeth and hair to recognize it as human, not animal. But not the entire skull. And there appear to have been at least two other piece of bone found that were determined not to be human

 

[Hexe]

I'm surprised that nothing else of her or her gear has been yet been found.

I'd think Dan would be up there day and night with a drone searching every crevice, canyon, nook and cranny.

And there must be other people regularly enjoying those trails in the summer weather.

It's impossible to check every crevice, canyon, nook and cranny in the mountains, especially that most of them are not accessible from the trails. We should also take in consideration that the rest of her remains might be away from her gear and from the place where a piece of her skull was found. As in she might leave her gear somewhere being in a daze, due to hypothermia, exhaustion or injury, and wander away, then hide herself in some nook, die there and then, in the spring the bearded vultures got to whatever left of her body, took her head and transported it to their favorite bone-dropping spot. The presence of the animal bones, I think, points towards bearded vultures moving at least some parts of Esther's remains.

 

[windrower]

The implication in this case is that GPS on ED's phone was unreliable. This point responds to comments ^^^ that reference GPS on the phone for pinging, but for route-finding as well. In the mountains, you can't rely on GPS on your phone. It actually can point SAR away from you (this happened in a White Mountains case; SAR went on a wild goose chase based on a GPS signal, totally in the wrong direction; and, yes, it became a fatality).

I wasn't commenting so much on the phone aspect of the GPS, but of GPS in general in mountainous areas. The mountains get between the satellites and the GPS. IIRC at least 3 satellites are required. I'm not a techie, but perhaps someone else has insight. SAR ended up in totally the wrong place during the rescue I'm thinking of where all they had was a ping. It seems to have delayed them for several hours.

Yes, there are trackers. They use satellites. They're called Personal Locator Beacons (PLB's). The instance I mentioned upthread where SAR got entirely thrown off course and wasted precious time was a ping from a PLB.

IIRC DC and ED didn't have a PLB.

I believe you are referencing the Kate Matrosova case? She was attempting a winter traverse of the Northern Presidential Range in New Hampshire’s White Mountains.

Someone earlier in one of ED’s thread (I’ll go find the poster) recommended a book about the Matrosova tragedy. I just finished reading it, and highly recommend it. Where You’ll Find Me: Risk, Decisions, and the Last Climb of Kate Matrosova by Ty Gagne covers not only the story of Matrosova, but all of the SAR teams, as well. Plus, hiking generalities and specifics, and why mountain tragedies occur. Excellent read.

RickshawFan, you are mistaken about the PLB and the pings in her case. It’s quite possible that news reports of the rescue and recovery operation were not accurate in their accounting of what happened.

Three teams of SAR went to each of the three areas where pings from Matrosova’s PLB were reportedly recorded. The book describes the difficulties of rescue operations in the mountains, and in the Matrosova case, in the midst of a horrific winter storm.

The reader knows the outcome, and yet, I could not put the book down. Fascinating reading.

 

[Mel79]

It's impossible to check every crevice, canyon, nook and cranny in the mountains, especially that most of them are not accessible from the trails. We should also take in consideration that the rest of her remains might be away from her gear and from the place where a piece of her skull was found. As in she might leave her gear somewhere being in a daze, due to hypothermia, exhaustion or injury, and wander away, then hide herself in some nook, die there and then, in the spring the bearded vultures got to whatever left of her body, took her head and transported it to their favorite bone-dropping spot. The presence of the animal bones, I think, points towards bearded vultures moving at least some parts of Esther's remains.

Yes all sounds most likely. But it doesn't exclude the possibility that if someone killed her, it is also a good way of diverting people away from the location of the actual body and gear, whilst at the same time making people think that her death was due to an accident. A hunter or local familiar with terrain wouldn't have any problems getting some animal bones and dropping them all off together near the path.

 

[fridaybaker]

I believe you are referencing the Kate Matrosova case? She was attempting a winter traverse of the Northern Presidential Range in New Hampshire’s White Mountains.

Someone earlier in one of ED’s thread (I’ll go find the poster) recommended a book about the Matrosova tragedy. I just finished reading it, and highly recommend it. Where You’ll Find Me: Risk, Decisions, and the Last Climb of Kate Matrosova by Ty Gagne covers not only the story of Matrosova, but all of the SAR teams, as well. Plus, hiking generalities and specifics, and why mountain tragedies occur. Excellent read.

RickshawFan, you are mistaken about the PLB and the pings in her case. It’s quite possible that news reports of the rescue and recovery operation were not accurate in their accounting of what happened.

Three teams of SAR went to each of the three areas where pings from Matrosova’s PLB were reportedly recorded. The book describes the difficulties of rescue operations in the mountains, and in the Matrosova case, in the midst of a horrific winter storm.

The reader knows the outcome, and yet, I could not put the book down. Fascinating reading.

My understanding is that Matrosova used a SPOT, not a PLB, which resulted in a devastating mislocation of her by SAR. It continued to send out signals, and misidentified her location several times. By the time she was found it was too late. What she should have used was a PLB.
…

 

[pentimento]

Yes all sounds most likely. But it doesn't exclude the possibility that if someone killed her, it is also a good way of diverting people away from the location of the actual body and gear, whilst at the same time making people think that her death was due to an accident. A hunter or local familiar with terrain wouldn't have any problems getting some animal bones and dropping them all off together near the path.

Yeah, now that you mention it, it does seem a little odd that the bones would be on or near a popular and well traversed trail. I'm no expert in vulture or animal behavior but it does seem like they would be more likely to take bones to a more remote spot away from human activity for consumption (for lack of a better word). We know this path is often used because it was stated that the bones definitely weren't there two days ago. Interesting thought.

 

[windrower]

My understanding is that Matrosova used a SPOT, not a PLB, which resulted in a devastating mislocation of her by SAR. It continued to send out signals, and misidentified her location several times. By the time she was found it was too late. What she should have used was a PLB.
…

I don’t know what a SPOT is, but the book says she did have a PLB, a “ResQLink personal locator beacon.” More specifically, an ACR Electronics ResQLink 375, whose signal, in this case, was monitored by the National Oceanic and Atmosphere Agency (NOAA) and the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center (AFRCC).

Sadly, by the time Matrosova used her PLB, it was already too late for anyone to reach her in time to help save her. The device gave off conflicting signals because she folded the antenna and put the PLB in her backpack after activating it.

I thought about Esther the whole time I was reading the book, wondering what her story will be.

 

[otto]

Yeah, now that you mention it, it does seem a little odd that the bones would be on or near a popular and well traversed trail. I'm no expert in vulture or animal behavior but it does seem like they would be more likely to take bones to a more remote spot away from human activity for consumption (for lack of a better word). We know this path is often used because it was stated that the bones definitely weren't there two days ago. Interesting thought.

I understood that the bones were found shortly after the trail was opened, shortly after the snow melted. The trail had been checked a few days earlier, and there were no bones in that area.

Vultures drop bones onto the rocks from a high elevation to break them and eat bone marrow. It takes 7 years for the birds to get it right (linked upthread). Young birds could have dropped the bones near the trail before the "run" was held. That is, the birds could have been aiming for a different area, missed, and the bones landed close to the trail.

 

[otto]

Yes all sounds most likely. But it doesn't exclude the possibility that if someone killed her, it is also a good way of diverting people away from the location of the actual body and gear, whilst at the same time making people think that her death was due to an accident. A hunter or local familiar with terrain wouldn't have any problems getting some animal bones and dropping them all off together near the path.

The search for Esther's equipment and the rest of her body continues. Locals would know that the search for missing hikers does not end with the discovery of part of a skull.

 

[Seni]

Yes, I think about her a lot, la querida Esther. We have learned so much from many of you. The inputs on this thread have been so enlightening and fabulous.

 

[x44]

Phone GPS are often rather rubbish. It all depends on how the geolocation is done and how this is related to whatever base map is available on the phone.
Take the UK's ordnance survey map application. The geolocation is done by both GPS and cell tower location triangulation. Now the phone cannot store much of a map as they simply do not have the memory. So with the OS app you get the free base map which is actually not bad in urban areas but a total rubbish in rural and outback areas. You can subscribe to the OS's map service and then get their full map of the OS 1:25000 scale maps on the phone - but, this is the important point, the map is streamed live to the phone via the data connection to your phone. So once you go out of 3G,4G whatever connection the app basically ceases to work. Ironically in the Welsh part of the UK mountains area the OS map app will work at the top of mountains (easy to see cell towers umpteen miles away) but it won't work in the valleys where there is often no phone cell phone reception let alone a data connection. So although the GPS part will still be working and you can use another GPS app which tells you your lat and long position and how many satellites it can 'see' without a base map you are a bit stuffed for using it for navigation.

Now move on to the proper walkers dedicated GPS units from the like of Garmin who moved into this area from their former stronghold in aviation grade gps. I've got one and have purchased the full UK map details at 1:25000 which comes on an SD type card and is installed behind the batteries. This will track my path and can "see" satellites even when the gps unit is (as normal) in my trouser pocket. If I deviate off a track 5 yards to go and take a picture it will record that deviation and I can later download the track to view it on a PC. Its also tracking my altitude and heights climbed. Zoom in, zoom out, built in compass etc. The screen is actually about the same size as a phone but you are trading power required to run the screen and the gps engine and the tracking so larger screens as well as making a more bulky unit degrade batteries more. You need to be able to re-charge the batteries every day as 2 AA rechargeables will only last a day's walking. I've found it pin point accurate recording every left,right, dogleg turn etc up mountains, in forests etc - though you often wonder how accurate are the location of some of the paths marked anyway. Obviously their ain't cheap and you make sure you do not drop it!

 

[Hexe]

Yes all sounds most likely. But it doesn't exclude the possibility that if someone killed her, it is also a good way of diverting people away from the location of the actual body and gear, whilst at the same time making people think that her death was due to an accident. A hunter or local familiar with terrain wouldn't have any problems getting some animal bones and dropping them all off together near the path.

I think this possibility is very, very small. Also, it would require the killer to go to Esther's grave, open it, take a piece of her remains and then transport it to Port de la Glere. Risky, a lot of trouble and leaves a metric ton of potential evidence behind. The gloves he used, the bag he transported remains in, his clothes, all of it would have to be destroyed.

 

[otto]

Phone GPS are often rather rubbish. It all depends on how the geolocation is done and how this is related to whatever base map is available on the phone.
Take the UK's ordnance survey map application. The geolocation is done by both GPS and cell tower location triangulation. Now the phone cannot store much of a map as they simply do not have the memory. So with the OS app you get the free base map which is actually not bad in urban areas but a total rubbish in rural and outback areas. You can subscribe to the OS's map service and then get their full map of the OS 1:25000 scale maps on the phone - but, this is the important point, the map is streamed live to the phone via the data connection to your phone. So once you go out of 3G,4G whatever connection the app basically ceases to work. Ironically in the Welsh part of the UK mountains area the OS map app will work at the top of mountains (easy to see cell towers umpteen miles away) but it won't work in the valleys where there is often no phone cell phone reception let alone a data connection. So although the GPS part will still be working and you can use another GPS app which tells you your lat and long position and how many satellites it can 'see' without a base map you are a bit stuffed for using it for navigation.

Now move on to the proper walkers dedicated GPS units from the like of Garmin who moved into this area from their former stronghold in aviation grade gps. I've got one and have purchased the full UK map details at 1:25000 which comes on an SD type card and is installed behind the batteries. This will track my path and can "see" satellites even when the gps unit is (as normal) in my trouser pocket. If I deviate off a track 5 yards to go and take a picture it will record that deviation and I can later download the track to view it on a PC. Its also tracking my altitude and heights climbed. Zoom in, zoom out, built in compass etc. The screen is actually about the same size as a phone but you are trading power required to run the screen and the gps engine and the tracking so larger screens as well as making a more bulky unit degrade batteries more. You need to be able to re-charge the batteries every day as 2 AA rechargeables will only last a day's walking. I've found it pin point accurate recording every left,right, dogleg turn etc up mountains, in forests etc - though you often wonder how accurate are the location of some of the paths marked anyway. Obviously their ain't cheap and you make sure you do not drop it!

Thank you for explaining why cell phone geolocating doesn't always work.

Esther carried her phone in a back pack pouch near her left hand - based on recently linked photos. It was not protected from the cold. Cold weather can quickly drain cell phones. Esther could charge her phone with a portable charger. However, if the phone is draining quickly due to cold temperatures, and the geolocator isn't connecting quickly, a phone charger won't fix the problem.

Perhaps Esther was halfway up the mountain to Port de la Glere when she needed to know whether the trail was left or right? What if she had to make a guess and got it wrong?

I'm inclined to now consider that Esther descended to the Refuge de Venasque as dusk set in. That surprises me, but her partner seems convinced (is he still convinced?). She got up in the morning and did not discover the wifi on the trail to Hospice de France because she went in the other direction, around the lake, and then the short cut. For me, that makes sense to explain the skull fragment location.

 

[otto]

Cavity versus crevice?

A cavity could be a narrow space between two rock ledges. A crevice is usually a gap in the terrain. Given that cavity is used, I'm thinking the former.

 

[Ruthbullock]

The movement of bones and the articles that state the bones were dragged by an animal to me are more accurate than the posters who believe these bones were dropped in that location by a bird. If the bones were taken by a bird and dropped to smash them, there would be surely more than one segment of skull at the location. It is plausible where ever ED ended up the skull was removed by a bird and then dropped to smash it, but it has then been moved again by another animal. There is potentially still two sites that need to be discovered- one where ED met her maker, and another where her bones had ended up being moved and dropped by birds and the final location where the skull piece was dragged to.