***SPOILER ALERT*** Imperfect Justice by Jeff Ashton - CONTENT DISCUSSION

[logicalgirl]

Man, I miss the days of the putting up the Muzikman signal, and waiting anxiously for him to get and post documents...

Me too! :sigh: He was wonderful and never let us down ....we always had them first .... :heartluv:

 

[Talina]

I'll give this one a try. I believe part of the garbage bag was lying on top of the skull which had plant roots entwined in it. When he lifted up the bag which was probably slightly stuck to the skull - there was the skull lying there. I think he was probably so shocked he at first thought the skull rolled out.

I agree but will add that I think JA's frustration with Kronk is that he felt Kronk just couldn't stick to what had really happened when he found the skull but instead sensationalized his "find" by saying that he lifted the bag and a skull rolled out which then gave the defense fodder by saying the recovery site had been changed. I took from the book that JA disagreed with that totally. He said that the skull rolling out or around is just not supported by the evidence with the root growth and other details. So, where they could have had a good witness for the prosecution, instead they ended up with an unreliable witness since his testimony of what happened on that December day is not what really happened.

When I read that part of the book I was thinking thank goodness the prosecution didn't need Kronk as a witness but then quickly reminded myself it didn't matter anyway with the verdict handed down. :maddening:

 

[FLmom777]

I plan on going to the St. Petersburg event with JA. If I get a chance to ask a question, I would like to see what would everybody here wish to have answered. I am giving my question to you here.

List your questions here and we can see what is desired by this team of sleuthers.

Maybe a mod could do a poll to get a consensus.

 

[atthelake]

I plan on going to the St. Petersburg event with JA. If I get a chance to ask a question, I would like to see what would everybody here wish to have answered. I am giving my question to you here.

List your questions here and we can see what is desired by this team of sleuthers.

Maybe a mod could do a poll to get a consensus.

Ruh Roh! May take a few for them to get to you as Mods are busy on the sidebar and just closed it down temporarily. Wasn't me that caused it! :innocent:

Durn! I can't post so that the photo of the Jetson dog Astro shows here.....hmmmm, try again....

http://www.tvacres.com/images/robots_cartoons_rosie_dog.jpg

 

[Etilema]

I agree but will add that I think JA's frustration with Kronk is that he felt Kronk just couldn't stick to what had really happened when he found the skull but instead sensationalized his "find" by saying that he lifted the bag and a skull rolled out which then gave the defense fodder by saying the recovery site had been changed. I took from the book that JA disagreed with that totally. He said that the skull rolling out or around is just not supported by the evidence with the root growth and other details. So, where they could have had a good witness for the prosecution, instead they ended up with an unreliable witness since his testimony of what happened on that December day is not what really happened.

When I read that part of the book I was thinking thank goodness the prosecution didn't need Kronk as a witness but then quickly reminded myself it didn't matter anyway with the verdict handed down. :maddening:

It seemed to me that when JA described the events unfolding, he said that Kronk had picked up the bag, etc.

But that explanation of the skull being part way out does seem to make sense.

 

[Hope4More]

A summary of what JA has to say about the murder of Caylee, and when OCA likely disposed of her.. for those who can't or won't be buying JA's book:

1. Why did OCA murder Caylee?

JA: Caylee had become too inconvenient. CA pushed OCA over the edge by confronting her on June 15th about OCA's thefts and not taking responsibility for Caylee, but the May 08 chloroform searches indicate that OCA had murder on her mind for some time prior to the date of the actual murder. No way to psycho-anlayze what exactly OCA was thinking on the day she murdered Caylee.

2. How did OCA murder Caylee?

She decided to murder Caylee on June 15, 2008, the night she and CA had a huge fight. OCA did not murder Caylee that night or before George left for work on June 16th; George saw OCA leave with Caylee around 12:50PM on the 16th. She told George they would not be back that night and that she had already told CA this- a lie. She called CA after 2 to tell her the same story.

OCA most likely murdered Caylee between 12:50 and 4PM. OCA murdered Caylee by using chloroform to restrain her, then duct tape to suffocate her. Caylee was in OCA's car trunk when OCA watched movies and shacked up with Tony that night and well into the next day, June 17.

3. When did OCA dispose of Caylee's body-- ie, throw her into the trash?

OCA returned home after 2PM on June 17. No evidence of what she did there on the 17th. Caylee was still in the trunk. OCA spent another night at Tony's with Caylee in the trunk.

In the early afternoon of JUne 18, OCA called home to make sure George had left, then drove there in the car, borrowed the neighbor's shovel, and returned it less than an hour later, looking unused. She then returned to Tony's.

OCA and Tony were together all day and night on June 19th, looking for an apartment.

June 20- "hot" body contest at Fusion.

June 23 was the day OCA had Tony over to her house to break into the shed and steal gas cans.

June 25th was 1st day OCA began mentioned the smell in her car, telling Amy the story of dead squirrels.

June 27th, more texts to Amy about the smell in the car, at the same time she was driving from Tony's to the vacinity of the Ants house. She spent 17 minutes in the area, then drove her car to Amsot's where she abandoned it, after calling Tony to come pick her up. By inference- Caylee was discarded that afternoon. Later that night, OCA partied it up at Fusion.

4. JA finds meaning in the Pattern of OCA's lies early in the 31 days.

Beginning the night of June 18th, through June 26 (a Thursday): OCA's lies to CA get bigger and more elaborate.. throwing in lies of pretend friend's pretend children, etc.

Over the weekend of June 27-June 29 (after Caylee has been discarded), OCA's lies change direction (no longer are day by day and Zanny related), laying the groundwork for the Jeff Hopkins lie to CA. This lie could be used to cover a longer period of time of not producing Caylee.. perhaps indefinitely. Jeff is rich and out of town and has a kid for Caylee to play with.. and wants OCA.

Shortly after June 30, OCA no longer bothers to call CA nightly, which she has done up to this point.

OCA has moved on the all way & isn't looking back.

 

[wonders]

Thanks 'Beach - and I wish Muzikman would stop in for a minute and just say hello - I miss him! He did so much for WS and I would love to say thank you one more time..

I was thinking about him yesterday.
I don't think he's been back in here since verdict day. I have been wondering if he is so heart broken and angry that he just cannot come back. He put so much blood, sweat and tears in this case for Caylee's sake.
I truely hope he is okay and I miss him too.

 

[Hope4More]

Summary, JA's timeline of OCA's lies and actions through mid-July:

First week of July:

Tony is in NY from June 30 to July 5.

OCA refuses to answer CA's numerous calls (8 times in 24 minutes on July 2 alone, the day before OCA gets her tattoo).

CA sends Lee to find OCA, catches her by phone by having one of her girlfriends call who then passes the phone to Lee. OCA snarls at Lee and hangs up on him.

Lee tell CA, CA posts her lament on MySpace.

OCA responds by telling CA to leave her alone, she's an adult, she's hooking up with Hopkins, and that she and Caylee one day would be gone for good.

July 8, drives Amy to airport, steals her checkbook, and 2 hours after dropping Amy off is in a Target store, where she spent 2 hours shopping and spent $111.01. JA- OCA stole from Amy because Tony was out of town, and access to CA's accounts had been closed off.

July 13. GA finds notice about abandoned car.

July 15. OCA cashes one last forged check of Amy's, for $250, on her way to pick Amy up from the airport.

 

[zippitydoda]

Didn't see this posted, if it was sry for the repeat.. I'm about 2/3 done with the book, and I read that JA noted that the Laura Buchanan/TES paperwork matter is closed - so that's another loose end tied up, and another person getting away with phoney investigation shenanigans.

I would love to learn more about what's on Joe J's secret tape, and what MS said to him. JA noted that EE did listen to it as related to an investigation, and it did contain "something" LE wanted the SA's to hear, but JA, nor anyone could not listen to it due to how it was recorded.

 

[Niner]

You're right - anyone can buy them and they are costly.

We used to have a local who would get docs for us released per the Sunshine Laws and it gets very, very expensive.

The problem with the sidebar transcripts is that there were SO MANY sidebars - some of them very lengthy. There is no way of knowing which ones are worth buying and which ones would be *yawn*. It would cost a fortune to buy them all.

I think the media may have had some sources who gave them "hints" or, at the very least, a very good clue which ones were worth buying.

Just to remind everyone how many there were - quoting my own post, since I kept track of the sidebars...

Total Sidebars Week 7 & Total for Trial:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Week 7:

Closing Agruments:

7/3, Sunday, Day 34: 1 (When all hell broke loose with JB Saying “Laughing Guy” re Jeff Ashton)
- Total Objections: 2 from Baez on State Close; 11 from State on Defense (Baez) close.

7/4, Monday, Day 35: 0 (Rebuttal by J. Ashton & LDB)
- Total Objections: 24 (9 from Baez to Ashton Rebuttal, 1 from Cheney to Ashton; 14 from Baez to LDB Rebuttal; 1 ask for sidebar – no per HHJBP!)


Grand Total Sidebars Week 7: 1

Grand Total for Trial – Sidebars: 271

 

[logicalgirl]

Just to remind everyone how many there were - quoting my own post, since I kept track of the sidebars...

Niners - that is amazing - I had no idea you were keeping numbers on sidebars - that total is mind boggling - I remember feeling we were in one long sidebar..
Thanks for this.

 

[logicalgirl]

Didn't see this posted, if it was sry for the repeat.. I'm about 2/3 done with the book, and I read that JA noted that the Laura Buchanan/TES paperwork matter is closed - so that's another loose end tied up, and another person getting away with phoney investigation shenanigans.

I would love to learn more about what's on Joe J's secret tape, and what MS said to him. JA noted that EE did listen to it as related to an investigation, and it did contain "something" LE wanted the SA's to hear, but JA, nor anyone could not listen to it due to how it was recorded.

No - thank you Zippy - no one has mentioned that! Tidbits! Lovely juicy tidbits - the book seems chock full of them - I love it! :loveyou:

 

[atthelake]

A summary of what JA has to say about the murder of Caylee, and when OCA likely disposed of her.. for those who can't or won't be buying JA's book:

1. Why did OCA murder Caylee?

JA: Caylee had become too inconvenient. CA pushed OCA over the edge by confronting her on June 15th about OCA's thefts and not taking responsibility for Caylee, but the May 08 chloroform searches indicate that OCA had murder on her mind for some time prior to the date of the actual murder. No way to psycho-anlayze what exactly OCA was thinking on the day she murdered Caylee.

2. How did OCA murder Caylee?

She decided to murder Caylee on June 15, 2008, the night she and CA had a huge fight. OCA did not murder Caylee that night or before George left for work on June 16th; George saw OCA leave with Caylee around 12:50PM on the 16th. She told George they would not be back that night and that she had already told CA this- a lie. She called CA after 2 to tell her the same story.

OCA most likely murdered Caylee between 12:50 and 4PM. OCA murdered Caylee by using chloroform to restrain her, then duct tape to suffocate her. Caylee was in OCA's car trunk when OCA watched movies and shacked up with Tony that night and well into the next day, June 17.

3. When did OCA dispose of Caylee's body-- ie, throw her into the trash?

OCA returned home after 2PM on June 17. No evidence of what she did there on the 17th. Caylee was still in the trunk. OCA spent another night at Tony's with Caylee in the trunk.

In the early afternoon of JUne 18, OCA called home to make sure George had left, then drove there in the car, borrowed the neighbor's shovel, and returned it less than an hour later, looking unused. She then returned to Tony's.

OCA and Tony were together all day and night on June 19th, looking for an apartment.

June 20- "hot" body contest at Fusion.

June 23 was the day OCA had Tony over to her house to break into the shed and steal gas cans.

June 25th was 1st day OCA began mentioned the smell in her car, telling Amy the story of dead squirrels.

June 27th, more texts to Amy about the smell in the car, at the same time she was driving from Tony's to the vacinity of the Ants house. She spent 17 minutes in the area, then drove her car to Amsot's where she abandoned it, after calling Tony to come pick her up. By inference- Caylee was discarded that afternoon. Later that night, OCA partied it up at Fusion.

4. JA finds meaning in the Pattern of OCA's lies early in the 31 days.

Beginning the night of June 18th, through June 26 (a Thursday): OCA's lies to CA get bigger and more elaborate.. throwing in lies of pretend friend's pretend children, etc.

Over the weekend of June 27-June 29 (after Caylee has been discarded), OCA's lies change direction (no longer are day by day and Zanny related), laying the groundwork for the Jeff Hopkins lie to CA. This lie could be used to cover a longer period of time of not producing Caylee.. perhaps indefinitely. Jeff is rich and out of town and has a kid for Caylee to play with.. and wants OCA.

Shortly after June 30, OCA no longer bothers to call CA nightly, which she has done up to this point.

OCA has moved on the all way & isn't looking back.

Jeez - so succinct Hope4More, thanks - and you followed with this also.... [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7364477&postcount=808"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7364477&postcount=808[/ame] perhaps this is what the jury might have benefited from - a great bullet point summary-yet unfortunately, it brings into what WE knew, but the jury didn't as to motive and CA/GA relationship with FCA. Again - so succint and well done.

 

[Aedrys]

A summary of what JA has to say about the murder of Caylee, and when OCA likely disposed of her.. for those who can't or won't be buying JA's book:


2. How did OCA murder Caylee?

She decided to murder Caylee on June 15, 2008, the night she and CA had a huge fight. OCA did not murder Caylee that night or before George left for work on June 16th; George saw OCA leave with Caylee around 12:50PM on the 16th. She told George they would not be back that night and that she had already told CA this- a lie. She called CA after 2 to tell her the same story.

OCA most likely murdered Caylee between 12:50 and 4PM. OCA murdered Caylee by using chloroform to restrain her, then duct tape to suffocate her. Caylee was in OCA's car trunk when OCA watched movies and shacked up with Tony that night and well into the next day, June 17.

BBM. Snipped for space. Whoa. I have never heard that before now! Wow. How come this tidbit never came up in court? Just dang. That is damning. She really did plan before hand...(not that I ever thought she hadn't, but this summary does send some shivers up my spine...)

Of course, with the Pinellas 12, it probably wouldn't have done any good anyway...I really need to read Jeff's book!

 

[Niner]

Thought I'd post this here - SyraKelly has agreed to pass along her book to me :great: after she reads it - and said to pass it along to others who would also like to read it. I started this thread in the "private" forum of WS - under the WebSleuths BookClub!!!!

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155088"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[MissJames]

I'll give this one a try. I believe part of the garbage bag was lying on top of the skull which had plant roots entwined in it. When he lifted up the bag which was probably slightly stuck to the skull - there was the skull lying there. I think he was probably so shocked he at first thought the skull rolled out.

And that's why you are our Logicalgirl ! :rocker:

 

[atthelake]

A summary of what JA has to say about the murder of Caylee, and when OCA likely disposed of her.. for those who can't or won't be buying JA's book:

1. Why did OCA murder Caylee?

JA: Caylee had become too inconvenient. CA pushed OCA over the edge by confronting her on June 15th about OCA's thefts and not taking responsibility for Caylee, but the May 08 chloroform searches indicate that OCA had murder on her mind for some time prior to the date of the actual murder. No way to psycho-anlayze what exactly OCA was thinking on the day she murdered Caylee.

2. How did OCA murder Caylee?

She decided to murder Caylee on June 15, 2008, the night she and CA had a huge fight. OCA did not murder Caylee that night or before George left for work on June 16th; George saw OCA leave with Caylee around 12:50PM on the 16th. She told George they would not be back that night and that she had already told CA this- a lie. She called CA after 2 to tell her the same story.

OCA most likely murdered Caylee between 12:50 and 4PM. OCA murdered Caylee by using chloroform to restrain her, then duct tape to suffocate her. Caylee was in OCA's car trunk when OCA watched movies and shacked up with Tony that night and well into the next day, June 17.

3. When did OCA dispose of Caylee's body-- ie, throw her into the trash?

OCA returned home after 2PM on June 17. No evidence of what she did there on the 17th. Caylee was still in the trunk. OCA spent another night at Tony's with Caylee in the trunk.

In the early afternoon of JUne 18, OCA called home to make sure George had left, then drove there in the car, borrowed the neighbor's shovel, and returned it less than an hour later, looking unused. She then returned to Tony's.

OCA and Tony were together all day and night on June 19th, looking for an apartment.

June 20- "hot" body contest at Fusion.

June 23 was the day OCA had Tony over to her house to break into the shed and steal gas cans.

June 25th was 1st day OCA began mentioned the smell in her car, telling Amy the story of dead squirrels.

June 27th, more texts to Amy about the smell in the car, at the same time she was driving from Tony's to the vacinity of the Ants house. She spent 17 minutes in the area, then drove her car to Amsot's where she abandoned it, after calling Tony to come pick her up. By inference- Caylee was discarded that afternoon. Later that night, OCA partied it up at Fusion.

4. JA finds meaning in the Pattern of OCA's lies early in the 31 days.

Beginning the night of June 18th, through June 26 (a Thursday): OCA's lies to CA get bigger and more elaborate.. throwing in lies of pretend friend's pretend children, etc.

Over the weekend of June 27-June 29 (after Caylee has been discarded), OCA's lies change direction (no longer are day by day and Zanny related), laying the groundwork for the Jeff Hopkins lie to CA. This lie could be used to cover a longer period of time of not producing Caylee.. perhaps indefinitely. Jeff is rich and out of town and has a kid for Caylee to play with.. and wants OCA.

Shortly after June 30, OCA no longer bothers to call CA nightly, which she has done up to this point.

OCA has moved on the all way & isn't looking back.

I still haven't gotten the book yet, but does Jeff mention those PROPHETIC words uttered by Shirley Plesea - That FCA hated CA more than she loved Caylee. Jeezzzzzzzzzzzz :banghead::banghead:

 

[angeldust]

A summary of what JA has to say about the murder of Caylee, and when OCA likely disposed of her.. for those who can't or won't be buying JA's book:

1. Why did OCA murder Caylee?

JA: Caylee had become too inconvenient. CA pushed OCA over the edge by confronting her on June 15th about OCA's thefts and not taking responsibility for Caylee, but the May 08 chloroform searches indicate that OCA had murder on her mind for some time prior to the date of the actual murder. No way to psycho-anlayze what exactly OCA was thinking on the day she murdered Caylee.

2. How did OCA murder Caylee?

She decided to murder Caylee on June 15, 2008, the night she and CA had a huge fight. OCA did not murder Caylee that night or before George left for work on June 16th; George saw OCA leave with Caylee around 12:50PM on the 16th. She told George they would not be back that night and that she had already told CA this- a lie. She called CA after 2 to tell her the same story.

OCA most likely murdered Caylee between 12:50 and 4PM. OCA murdered Caylee by using chloroform to restrain her, then duct tape to suffocate her. Caylee was in OCA's car trunk when OCA watched movies and shacked up with Tony that night and well into the next day, June 17.

3. When did OCA dispose of Caylee's body-- ie, throw her into the trash?

OCA returned home after 2PM on June 17. No evidence of what she did there on the 17th. Caylee was still in the trunk. OCA spent another night at Tony's with Caylee in the trunk.

In the early afternoon of JUne 18, OCA called home to make sure George had left, then drove there in the car, borrowed the neighbor's shovel, and returned it less than an hour later, looking unused. She then returned to Tony's.

OCA and Tony were together all day and night on June 19th, looking for an apartment.

June 20- "hot" body contest at Fusion.

June 23 was the day OCA had Tony over to her house to break into the shed and steal gas cans.

June 25th was 1st day OCA began mentioned the smell in her car, telling Amy the story of dead squirrels.

June 27th, more texts to Amy about the smell in the car, at the same time she was driving from Tony's to the vacinity of the Ants house. She spent 17 minutes in the area, then drove her car to Amsot's where she abandoned it, after calling Tony to come pick her up. By inference- Caylee was discarded that afternoon. Later that night, OCA partied it up at Fusion.

4. JA finds meaning in the Pattern of OCA's lies early in the 31 days.

Beginning the night of June 18th, through June 26 (a Thursday): OCA's lies to CA get bigger and more elaborate.. throwing in lies of pretend friend's pretend children, etc.

Over the weekend of June 27-June 29 (after Caylee has been discarded), OCA's lies change direction (no longer are day by day and Zanny related), laying the groundwork for the Jeff Hopkins lie to CA. This lie could be used to cover a longer period of time of not producing Caylee.. perhaps indefinitely. Jeff is rich and out of town and has a kid for Caylee to play with.. and wants OCA.

Shortly after June 30, OCA no longer bothers to call CA nightly, which she has done up to this point.

OCA has moved on the all way & isn't looking back.

thanks hope4more

this actually makes me feel a little better JA obviously sees what happened the same way a lot of us here thought.

He must be spitting feathers like the rest of us who cannot understand why something so obvious went so wrong in court .

I would love to believe the jury has sleepless night s because of their actions a cold blooded child murderer walks free

 

[Schmerty_Jones]

I still haven't gotten the book yet, but does Jeff mention those PROPHETIC words uttered by Shirley Plesea - That FCA hated CA more than she loved Caylee. Jeezzzzzzzzzzzz :banghead::banghead:

Now off to read the book which I got yesterday!!!

 

[logicalgirl]

I still haven't gotten the book yet, but does Jeff mention those PROPHETIC words uttered by Shirley Plesea - That FCA hated CA more than she loved Caylee. Jeezzzzzzzzzzzz :banghead::banghead:

I don't believe FCA loved Caylee or anyone else besides herself - she is the empty shell CA was talking about - she can only love her self..the rest of her is empty - she just isn't capable of it.