I thought this too but I think she might have been medicated with something like Benadryl. She was seen for a lot of sinus infections. The picture where she is resting her head on her Mom's shoulder is the one that really makes me think she was on allergy meds....she looks sleepy and kind of doped-up. She might have been sick but I wonder if PR occasionally medicated JB to help make her more compliant or less active. Photos would require her to sit still. I also think PR looks angry in some of the pictures taken during that shoot. I wonder how much touch-up was done on those photos too... I have to give some credit/blame for those photos to the photographer. I wonder which ones PR actually purchased. Do we know if these are photos PR approved and bought prints or were they sold by the photographer but never purchased by the R's?
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Steely's curling iron theory
- Thread starter Steely
- Start date
Very Interesting Study on Cutaneous Burns:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1934304/pdf/amjpathol00502-0018.pdf
STUDIES OF THERMAL INJURY
II. THE RELATIVE IMPORTANCE OF TIME AND SURFACE TEMPERATURE
IN THE CAUSATION OF CUTANEOUS BURNs *
A. R. Moxr, M.D., and F. C. HENRIQuES, JR., Ph.D.
(From the Departmen of Legal Medcixe, Harvrd Medical School, Boston, Mass.)
"The pig was used in these studies because it was found that no other
readily available animal has skin that bears so close an anatomical
resemblance to that of man."
"Color of Cutaneous Burns
"Compression of the skin during exposure to heat may alter the surface color of the resulting burn without affecting its severity. Within a certain range of surface temperature, the application during the exposure of sufficient pressure to blanch the skin may cause a burn to remain ischemic that would otherwise be hyperemic. In such circumstances, differences in color are not indicative of differences in the depth of the injury."
"In burns produced without concomitant compression of the skin, the color of the surface of the burn is determined in part by the rapidity and degree of the initial increase in dermal temperature and in part by the duration of the exposure. The surface color of such burns is not a useful criterion for estimating either the severity of injury or the amount of blood that may be pooled in the underlying tissue."
(clip)
"When the initial rise in dermal temperature is rapid and high, the superficial vessels contract so quickly that there is no opportunity for them to become hyperemic. Although such burns are superficially ischemic, there is intense hyperemia of the more deeply situated vessels."
http://www.pathology.med.ohio-state.edu/pews/glossary/FRDetails.aspx
"HYPEREMIA: - a term used to describe a local increased volume of blood in an organ. Active hyperemia refers to increased arteriolar inflow resulting in the affected tissue becoming engorged with oxygenated blood (and therefore appearing redder)."
If JB's "unknown abrasions" are in fact contact burns, the color of those lesions might not look like a "typical burn" and the depth of the burn injuries probably would not have been observable to the human eye.
http://burndoc.net/peck.pdf
"... the depth of burn is often difficult to
diagnose in the first 24 hours. Repeated examinations over
the next few days are often necessary, particularly to delineate burned from unburned skin."
If JB's "unknown abrasions" are contact burns, the true depth and extent of those burns would not be observable at the time of the autopsy and the color (hence the appearance) of those lesions present at the autopsy would depend on:
1)Compression
2)Rapidity and and degree of the initial increase in dermal temperature
3)Duration of the exposure
4)How soon she died after the burns were inflicted
5)How many hours elapsed after she died and she was examined (after death tissue changes)
6)Injuries inflicted after death?
7)Other factors?????????
There are a lot of variables involved in the appearance of cutaneous burns. Given the ME was probably not a burn trauma expert and he did not get tissue samples, can we really completely rule out a contact burn lesion as the differential diagnosis for the “roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion?” Can we rule out branding type burns from the tip of a safety-tip free curling iron as the weapon used to cause some of JB's injuries?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1934304/pdf/amjpathol00502-0018.pdf
STUDIES OF THERMAL INJURY
II. THE RELATIVE IMPORTANCE OF TIME AND SURFACE TEMPERATURE
IN THE CAUSATION OF CUTANEOUS BURNs *
A. R. Moxr, M.D., and F. C. HENRIQuES, JR., Ph.D.
(From the Departmen of Legal Medcixe, Harvrd Medical School, Boston, Mass.)
"The pig was used in these studies because it was found that no other
readily available animal has skin that bears so close an anatomical
resemblance to that of man."
"Color of Cutaneous Burns
"Compression of the skin during exposure to heat may alter the surface color of the resulting burn without affecting its severity. Within a certain range of surface temperature, the application during the exposure of sufficient pressure to blanch the skin may cause a burn to remain ischemic that would otherwise be hyperemic. In such circumstances, differences in color are not indicative of differences in the depth of the injury."
"In burns produced without concomitant compression of the skin, the color of the surface of the burn is determined in part by the rapidity and degree of the initial increase in dermal temperature and in part by the duration of the exposure. The surface color of such burns is not a useful criterion for estimating either the severity of injury or the amount of blood that may be pooled in the underlying tissue."
(clip)
"When the initial rise in dermal temperature is rapid and high, the superficial vessels contract so quickly that there is no opportunity for them to become hyperemic. Although such burns are superficially ischemic, there is intense hyperemia of the more deeply situated vessels."
http://www.pathology.med.ohio-state.edu/pews/glossary/FRDetails.aspx
"HYPEREMIA: - a term used to describe a local increased volume of blood in an organ. Active hyperemia refers to increased arteriolar inflow resulting in the affected tissue becoming engorged with oxygenated blood (and therefore appearing redder)."
If JB's "unknown abrasions" are in fact contact burns, the color of those lesions might not look like a "typical burn" and the depth of the burn injuries probably would not have been observable to the human eye.
http://burndoc.net/peck.pdf
"... the depth of burn is often difficult to
diagnose in the first 24 hours. Repeated examinations over
the next few days are often necessary, particularly to delineate burned from unburned skin."
If JB's "unknown abrasions" are contact burns, the true depth and extent of those burns would not be observable at the time of the autopsy and the color (hence the appearance) of those lesions present at the autopsy would depend on:
1)Compression
2)Rapidity and and degree of the initial increase in dermal temperature
3)Duration of the exposure
4)How soon she died after the burns were inflicted
5)How many hours elapsed after she died and she was examined (after death tissue changes)
6)Injuries inflicted after death?
7)Other factors?????????
There are a lot of variables involved in the appearance of cutaneous burns. Given the ME was probably not a burn trauma expert and he did not get tissue samples, can we really completely rule out a contact burn lesion as the differential diagnosis for the “roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion?” Can we rule out branding type burns from the tip of a safety-tip free curling iron as the weapon used to cause some of JB's injuries?
"More than any other evidence, detective Lou Smit believes that small marks left on JonBenets face and back, prove that an intruder killed JonBenet."
The killer had a stun gun. I am sure the killer had a stun gun, he says.
"John Ramsey. We had buried our child, she was at peace, she was safe. That was just an abhorrent thought to me, he says. Weve got people that know what theyre doing that say with 95 percent medical certainty that a stun gun was used, no question. Despite the uncertainty that leaves, he says he didnt want to disturb his child."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/01/48hours/main523887.shtml
No question? Really?
"The mother had a curling iron. I am sure the mother had a curling iron," Steely says.
But did the mother have a safety-tip free curling iron of the right diameter? Did it have a tip the right shape to make those marks? Could it have inflicted those lesions? Who would/could do such a thing to JB's face and back? Are there any PHOTOS or VIDEOS of PR curling her own or JB's hair with safety-tip free curling irons? Hmmmmmm.......
The killer had a stun gun. I am sure the killer had a stun gun, he says.
"John Ramsey. We had buried our child, she was at peace, she was safe. That was just an abhorrent thought to me, he says. Weve got people that know what theyre doing that say with 95 percent medical certainty that a stun gun was used, no question. Despite the uncertainty that leaves, he says he didnt want to disturb his child."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/01/48hours/main523887.shtml
No question? Really?
"The mother had a curling iron. I am sure the mother had a curling iron," Steely says.
But did the mother have a safety-tip free curling iron of the right diameter? Did it have a tip the right shape to make those marks? Could it have inflicted those lesions? Who would/could do such a thing to JB's face and back? Are there any PHOTOS or VIDEOS of PR curling her own or JB's hair with safety-tip free curling irons? Hmmmmmm.......
"More than any other evidence, detective Lou Smit believes that small marks left on JonBenets face and back, prove that an intruder killed JonBenet."
The killer had a stun gun. I am sure the killer had a stun gun, he says.
"John Ramsey. We had buried our child, she was at peace, she was safe. That was just an abhorrent thought to me, he says. Weve got people that know what theyre doing that say with 95 percent medical certainty that a stun gun was used, no question. Despite the uncertainty that leaves, he says he didnt want to disturb his child."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/01/48hours/main523887.shtml
No question? Really?
"The mother had a curling iron. I am sure the mother had a curling iron," Steely says.
But did the mother have a safety-tip free curling iron of the right diameter? Did it have a tip the right shape to make those marks? Could it have inflicted those lesions? Who would/could do such a thing to JB's face and back? Are there any PHOTOS or VIDEOS of PR curling her own or JB's hair with safety-tip free curling irons? Hmmmmmm.......
Steely,
A curling iron may have been used, but I doubt any of JonBenet's injuries have been inflicted by a curling iron, unless it was cold.
If Coroner Meyer had missed the abrasions being caused by a burn due to the use of a curling iron. I'm fairly certain other pathologists who had access to clearer and larger photographs than we have , would have commented before now?
.
UK Guy, great point. It could have been used cold too. You are in good company not believing these are burns. Dr. Werner Spitz, a "nationally known pathologist who has worked on major cases including the assassination of J.F. Kennedy" doesn't think they look like burns and at least three other pathologists agreed the photo of the marks didn't look like stun gun marks. But Dr. Michael Doberson the forensic pathologist who was the coroner for neighboring Arapahoe County thinks they are stun gun marks and stun gun marks are electrical burns.
I admit I am no expert, but I think they look like burns..."branding" type burns not an abrasion from a clothing SNAP. These marks are patterned...they show the shape of the weapon/object that made them. Without a histological examination, we can not be sure what made those lesions. You can't tell from a photo and expert opinion can be WRONG.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1112740/
"Most general practitioners who excise skin biopsy specimens are not trained dermatologists, and even the most “obvious” clinical lesion may not turn out to be what it was thought to be. This happens even to experienced specialist surgeons. A policy of selective histological referral when the doctor is not necessarily an expert dermatologist will certainly miss important diagnoses, but it also misses the basic point that these specimens are diagnostic and, once lost, can never be retrieved. It is also, I would argue, on dubious grounds legally if complications should develop."
Was the ME an expert dermatologist? How experienced was he with child abuse trauma death investigations? How experienced was he with burn trauma? His failure to use separate fingernail clippers is evidence he made at least one huge mistake while conducting this autopsy. After the fact, is he going to admit he should have looked at those lesions more carefully and he should have gotten tissue samples for a histological examination? Most "abrasions" aren't patterned and if they are they usually take the shape of the weapon or object that inflicted the injury. A patterned trauma injury needs to be examined very carefully and the crime scene searched for ANYTHING capable of making an injury with that pattern.
Sure, if IDI, he/she could have taken that weapon (not likely to be a curling iron) with them or if RDI they could have (probably did) get rid of that weapon/object as soon as they were able to do so. (Disposed of that night? Sister picked it up? Cleaned along with the flashlight and left in a bathroom?) Some think JB might have been strangled twice...could a curling iron cord have been used the first time? If the red cone-shaped mark WAS a burn from a curling iron then the ligature could have been staged specifically to throw investigators off. Imagine if that mark was on her neck but there were no signs of strangulation or ligature marks, what would people think when they saw that?
http://www.acandyrose.com/10042002-48hrs.htm
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "The coroner for neighboring Arapahoe County, also believes the marks on JonBenet were left by a stun gun."
Dr. Michael Dobersen: "What we have to do is match up the injuries with the weapon."
Lou Smit: "What you are seeing on the left, is you're seeing the actual injury on the back of JonBenet, the marks are similar in size and shape and color and they are a certain distant apart.. And the pig too, you see marks that were left on the skin of the pig."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "While there are some differences, both Dobersen and Smit believe the experiment confirms a stun gun was used."
Dr. Michael Dobersen: "If it's not a stun gun I would like to know what it is."
Dr. Werner Spitz: "Are you telling me that this looks to you like the other one, the one that JonBenet has? They don't look like that to me at all. A stun gun injury is an electrical burn, it's a burn essentially. And these don't look like burns."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Instead, Spitz believes the large dark mark on JonBenet's face was left by a snap on a piece of clothing"
Dr. Werner Spitz: "You know like the snaps they have on blue jeans for instance. If you look at this one below the ear, this thing here. If you look at it closely with a magnify glass you will see within this brownish mark is a boat shaped structure which is missing with any of the other injuries."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Unfortunately with only photographs to go by no expert, not Dr. Spitz and not Dr. Dobersen can be one hundred percent sure."
How many pathologists do you suppose know curling irons can be safety-tip free, in a huge variety of diameters, and in shapes such as triangular and square? We don't know if PR even had a safety-tip free curling iron but perhaps photos and videos could be examined or witnesses (housekeepers? hairdressers? friends? BR? pageant moms?) interviewed.
I admit I am no expert, but I think they look like burns..."branding" type burns not an abrasion from a clothing SNAP. These marks are patterned...they show the shape of the weapon/object that made them. Without a histological examination, we can not be sure what made those lesions. You can't tell from a photo and expert opinion can be WRONG.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1112740/
"Most general practitioners who excise skin biopsy specimens are not trained dermatologists, and even the most “obvious” clinical lesion may not turn out to be what it was thought to be. This happens even to experienced specialist surgeons. A policy of selective histological referral when the doctor is not necessarily an expert dermatologist will certainly miss important diagnoses, but it also misses the basic point that these specimens are diagnostic and, once lost, can never be retrieved. It is also, I would argue, on dubious grounds legally if complications should develop."
Was the ME an expert dermatologist? How experienced was he with child abuse trauma death investigations? How experienced was he with burn trauma? His failure to use separate fingernail clippers is evidence he made at least one huge mistake while conducting this autopsy. After the fact, is he going to admit he should have looked at those lesions more carefully and he should have gotten tissue samples for a histological examination? Most "abrasions" aren't patterned and if they are they usually take the shape of the weapon or object that inflicted the injury. A patterned trauma injury needs to be examined very carefully and the crime scene searched for ANYTHING capable of making an injury with that pattern.
Sure, if IDI, he/she could have taken that weapon (not likely to be a curling iron) with them or if RDI they could have (probably did) get rid of that weapon/object as soon as they were able to do so. (Disposed of that night? Sister picked it up? Cleaned along with the flashlight and left in a bathroom?) Some think JB might have been strangled twice...could a curling iron cord have been used the first time? If the red cone-shaped mark WAS a burn from a curling iron then the ligature could have been staged specifically to throw investigators off. Imagine if that mark was on her neck but there were no signs of strangulation or ligature marks, what would people think when they saw that?
http://www.acandyrose.com/10042002-48hrs.htm
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "The coroner for neighboring Arapahoe County, also believes the marks on JonBenet were left by a stun gun."
Dr. Michael Dobersen: "What we have to do is match up the injuries with the weapon."
Lou Smit: "What you are seeing on the left, is you're seeing the actual injury on the back of JonBenet, the marks are similar in size and shape and color and they are a certain distant apart.. And the pig too, you see marks that were left on the skin of the pig."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "While there are some differences, both Dobersen and Smit believe the experiment confirms a stun gun was used."
Dr. Michael Dobersen: "If it's not a stun gun I would like to know what it is."
Dr. Werner Spitz: "Are you telling me that this looks to you like the other one, the one that JonBenet has? They don't look like that to me at all. A stun gun injury is an electrical burn, it's a burn essentially. And these don't look like burns."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Instead, Spitz believes the large dark mark on JonBenet's face was left by a snap on a piece of clothing"
Dr. Werner Spitz: "You know like the snaps they have on blue jeans for instance. If you look at this one below the ear, this thing here. If you look at it closely with a magnify glass you will see within this brownish mark is a boat shaped structure which is missing with any of the other injuries."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Unfortunately with only photographs to go by no expert, not Dr. Spitz and not Dr. Dobersen can be one hundred percent sure."
How many pathologists do you suppose know curling irons can be safety-tip free, in a huge variety of diameters, and in shapes such as triangular and square? We don't know if PR even had a safety-tip free curling iron but perhaps photos and videos could be examined or witnesses (housekeepers? hairdressers? friends? BR? pageant moms?) interviewed.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3vbXuXFWS4&feature=related[/ame]
Really listen to this video....
I think:
PR wanted JB's hair to look good for the photos they'd be taking with JR's kids the next day. PR sectioned her hair with hair ties and held the top section up out of the way with a "scrunchie" so she'd have room to work. But the family's little "spark plug" wouldn't sit still...
It was PR.
In her own bathroom.
With the curling iron.
The iron was so hot the quick touches with the curling iron caused second and third degree burns...JB either jerked away,was shoved, or had a vaso-vagal syncope and she hit her head on the tub or the toilet. The burns were so bad and the head injury so grave, they knew if they took her to the ER she would surely die anyway and PR would spend the rest of her life in jail. JR knew his wife loved their daughter, it was a terrible accident, she never would have intentionally done that to her. They could get rid of her body but they'd be denied proper burial. Neither one would agree to that. So the staging began and when JB breathed no more, lying on the floor in the cellar, and the final horrible "pedophile did it" staging was done... it was PR who screamed...one horrible long scream of lament.
Just my theory! We don't know if PR even HAD a safety-tip free curling iron, and even if she did, we don't know if one could have made those "unidentified abrasions."
Really listen to this video....
I think:
PR wanted JB's hair to look good for the photos they'd be taking with JR's kids the next day. PR sectioned her hair with hair ties and held the top section up out of the way with a "scrunchie" so she'd have room to work. But the family's little "spark plug" wouldn't sit still...
It was PR.
In her own bathroom.
With the curling iron.
The iron was so hot the quick touches with the curling iron caused second and third degree burns...JB either jerked away,was shoved, or had a vaso-vagal syncope and she hit her head on the tub or the toilet. The burns were so bad and the head injury so grave, they knew if they took her to the ER she would surely die anyway and PR would spend the rest of her life in jail. JR knew his wife loved their daughter, it was a terrible accident, she never would have intentionally done that to her. They could get rid of her body but they'd be denied proper burial. Neither one would agree to that. So the staging began and when JB breathed no more, lying on the floor in the cellar, and the final horrible "pedophile did it" staging was done... it was PR who screamed...one horrible long scream of lament.
Just my theory! We don't know if PR even HAD a safety-tip free curling iron, and even if she did, we don't know if one could have made those "unidentified abrasions."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3vbXuXFWS4&feature=related
Really listen to this video....
I think:
PR wanted JB's hair to look good for the photos they'd be taking with JR's kids the next day. PR sectioned her hair with hair ties and held the top section up out of the way with a "scrunchie" so she'd have room to work. But the family's little "spark plug" wouldn't sit still...
It was PR.
In her own bathroom.
With the curling iron.
The iron was so hot the quick touches with the curling iron caused second and third degree burns...JB either jerked away,was shoved, or had a vaso-vagal syncope and she hit her head on the tub or the toilet. The burns were so bad and the head injury so grave, they knew if they took her to the ER she would surely die anyway and PR would spend the rest of her life in jail. JR knew his wife loved their daughter, it was a terrible accident, she never would have intentionally done that to her. They could get rid of her body but they'd be denied proper burial. Neither one would agree to that. So the staging began and when JB breathed no more, lying on the floor in the cellar, and the final horrible "pedophile did it" staging was done... it was PR who screamed...one horrible long scream of lament.
Just my theory! We don't know if PR even HAD a safety-tip free curling iron, and even if she did, we don't know if one could have made those "unidentified abrasions."
Great Theory, no way lol. No mom, no matter how neurotic would try to do the hair. Especailly if they had to do it all the time. It was XMAS vacation. Possible, not clicking with me.
eileenhawkeye
Well-Known Member
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Couldn't Patsy have just done JonBenet's hair on 12/26 in Michigan? I curl my hair a lot and it doesn't take long at all. Also, JonBenet only had her hair and makeup done when she was doing a photoshoot or a pageant. I really can't see Melinda and especially JAR taking part in one of JonBenet's photoshoots. I can definitely see Patsy wanting pictures of JBR, Burke, Melinda, and JAR for Christmas but I think at the most, she would have done JonBenet's hair like at the 12/23 party.
Great Theory, no way lol. No mom, no matter how neurotic would try to do the hair. Especailly if they had to do it all the time. It was XMAS vacation. Possible, not clicking with me.
Thanks, EastCoast. LOL. Photos were a priority for PR. JB's hair was a priority for PR. (Even in the 911 call..."She's blond.... she's blond." According to another poster, PR's friends were planning an "intervention" because of the "JonBenet thing." Apparently PR was so obsessed with JB being a beauty queen, her friends were concerned about it. No mom would try to do the hair? I think PR would. Look at all the photos, all the trophies for a six year old, and then look at the photo with JR's other kids.
Yes, it was Christmas vacation. That's exactly why she WOULD want to do her hair. Christmas was a huge deal for PR. Check out the home tour photos! Look at all the family photos in matching outfits. Christmas, photos, and Christmas photos were priorities for PR!!!!!! Are you saying someone who was recovering from cancer treatment who would go to all the trouble to decorate her home like she did wouldn't stay up a little later to do her little beauty queen's hair?
PR didn't "have" to do her hair all the time... I think she liked to do it and she had probably gotten pretty fast at it. Little girls don't have to wash their hair every day and curls hold better on hair that has been washed the day before. So PR probably didn't need to wash it. She might have planned to do JB's hair that night thinking they'd be home earlier than they were. With a few minutes with a curling iron, PR could put in tight spiral curls and by the next day her hair would be perfect for the family Christmas photos. (Not fake-looking pageant hair but lovely loose flowing curls... Be sure you've watched the video from post #26) It was late. But BR was building a toy with his Dad two floors below. Maybe Christmas music was playing. Would BR and JR have heard a scuffle up in PR's bathroom from down there?
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/photogallery/ramsey.html?curPhoto=1
I think PR wanted "her kids" to look perfect in the family photos with JR's kids the next day. I also think she wanted JB to take that red turtleneck outfit to wear for more photos so the two of them would match for the photos they'd be taking with JOHN's kids from his first family. (I wonder if they'd hired a professional photographer and scheduled a sitting? HMMM..)
I think PR was mad about having to leave her home with her little family to go see JR's kids. She was hurt about the My Twinn doll. She had probably gotten little sleep the night before helping Santa with the stockings and wrapping presents (she said she was down wrapping the 24th and 25th.) I think PR was tired, resentful, cranky and out of patience. I think PR was sick of the little power struggles. I think she flew into a rage when JB whined and wouldn't sit still. I don't think PR meant to do it. "We didn't mean for this to happen."
Couldn't Patsy have just done JonBenet's hair on 12/26 in Michigan? I curl my hair a lot and it doesn't take long at all. Also, JonBenet only had her hair and makeup done when she was doing a photoshoot or a pageant. I really can't see Melinda and especially JAR taking part in one of JonBenet's photoshoots. I can definitely see Patsy wanting pictures of JBR, Burke, Melinda, and JAR for Christmas but I think at the most, she would have done JonBenet's hair like at the 12/23 party.
You are totally right...she sure could have done it the next day. PR probably traveled with curling iron(s) all the time. But the video shows how by doing the spiral curls the night before they are really beautiful and natural looking the next day. So this would have been "party hair" not "pageant hair" as in no extensions, cascades, falls etc. I think PR knew that, with her cancer, she might not live to see her kids grow up. I think that made getting photos even more important to her than it is for most of us. I think she put a little make-up on JB for some of the non-pageant photos but certainly not full-on pageant make-up.
And thanks for mentioning... "it doesn't take long at all." If you have a professional iron it takes even less time because they get so hot so quickly.
eileenhawkeye
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What non-pageant pictures of JonBenet do you feel she is wearing a little makeup in? If you could post them here, that would be great. Or you could just describe them and I'll find them.
What non-pageant pictures of JonBenet do you feel she is wearing a little makeup in? If you could post them here, that would be great. Or you could just describe them and I'll find them.
I think she is bare-faced in the ones below. Her lips are dark but not as dark and glossy as the ones below and the eyes are not as defined:
http://candycane121.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=55974830
http://candycane121.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=55974332
I could be wrong about this but I think she is wearing a little make-up in these photos. JB's lips were naturally redder than average as are BR's but in these photos I suspect lipstain (which makes them look naturally red as it stains the lips and isn't obvious like lipstick) and/or gloss, and maybe a little eyeliner:
http://candycane121.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=55974849
http://candycane121.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=55974325
http://candycane121.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=55974323
Note: JB got in trouble for putting makeup on at the Dec 23rd party but I think that was after her photos that day. I'm not sure but usually when 6 year olds put makeup on themselves it is quite a sight and there is a reason their mom's tell them to wash it off.
Am I seeing things?
I've reposted this wonderful video showing the use of a Marcel curling iron to make ringlets which are meant to be SLEPT in that night so the hair looks great the NEXT day:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3vbXuXFWS4&feature=player_embedded[/ame]
30 seconds into this video:
"It's just gunna be natural dried, which is what mine is now. And then you're going to curl it. When you first do it, the first night it's gunna be like perfect little ringlets, which is not really what you want. Which is kind of what I have on this side, I've already started. But when you sleep on it...so... you're preparing the day before you want your awesome hair. When you sleep on it, the next morning it's going to look amazing."
When you curl hair, it helps if you section it off and hold the sections you're not working on out of the way with clips or hair ties. The cloth hair tie sounds like a "scrunchie" which could hold the ends of the top ponytail up out of the way. Sectioning makes it much easier, less frustrating, and faster to curl the hair. You don't usually curl the top layer of hair first, then clip it out of your way because that would mess up your curls. You start curling the lower levels of hair and work your way up.
My theory:
I think PR was going to start with the lowest levels of hair, the little bit of hair in the front by her ears and the hair at the nape of the neck just behind the ear. After brushing all of JB's hair really well and perhaps adding a little hair styling product to protect the curl and help to hold the curls, I think she sectioned the hair and pulled just the hair at the top into a very high ponytail and secured it with a blue elastic band. She pulled less hair into the ponytail (didn't include all the hair by the ears) and made the ponytail HIGHER up on JB's head (top of her head not the back of the head) than it had been that morning. PR gathered the rest of the hair at the back into a low ponytail and secured that with a blue elastic band to keep it out of the way. She didn't need to wind the elastic bands really tightly because they weren't meant to stay in for long.
Then, PR put the scrunchie (called the "cloth hair tie" or "black/red/white hairtie" by the coroner and LE) over the blue elastic band of the top ponytail pulling the long strands all the way through. She wound it around another time again, pulling the ends through. Next, with the blue elastic hair tie holding the hair together on the top of her head with the scrunchie wound around it... she held the ponytail at the base over the scrunchie with one hand while she wound the hair into a loose bun or loop, then she twisted the scrunchie once again and slipped it over the hair to loosely secure the hair in a messy almost bun shape at the top of JB's head. This way PR wouldn't have to fight to keep the top layers of hair out of her way while she hurriedly curled the hair at the nape. The hair ties could be put in looser than usual because they weren't meant to hold the hair for a long time. This scenario makes sense of why JB had 2 ponytails and 3 "hairties." Hair-fixing intruders probably aren't impossible but PR was the one obsessed with JB's hair.
Patsy Ramsey: "Why is it so hard for people to understand that we loved this child with everything in our being?" We would never touch a hair on the head of one of our children. I mean it just is inconceivable to me."
http://www.jameson245.com/48hours2.htm
I think it is inconceivable to PR that this happened and that is why she is detached from it, because she just can't accept it. She flew into a rage and the curling iron was so hot that it took just mere seconds to do that damage. I believe she was fixing JB's beautiful blond hair and JB wanted to go play with her Dad and brother two floors below and she wouldn't sit still. PR just lost it and burned JB and JB hit her head on the tub or toilet in PR's bathroom. She didn't "touch a hair" on her head... there was NO scalp trauma. She loved JB and her beautiful blonde..."she's blonde" hair.
From the autopsy:
"The scalp is covered by long blond hair which is fixed in two ponytails, one on top of the head secured by a cloth hair tie and blue elastic band, and one in the lower back of the head secured by a blue elastic band. No scalp trauma is identified."
http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/jonbenet_ramsey/jonbenet_ramsey_autopsy.pdf
The Coroner, Dr. John E. Meyer MD, did not mention the color of the cloth hair tie but the search warrant does.
The search warrant list from 12/26 lists:
Black/red/white hairtie
Blue hairtie
Hairtie
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-Flight755-baggagecheck12261996.htm
Warning! Crime scene photo of the hair ties:
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-Flight755-baggagecheck12261996.htm
http://candycane121.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=31541595
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3vbXuXFWS4&feature=player_embedded[/ame]
30 seconds into this video:
"It's just gunna be natural dried, which is what mine is now. And then you're going to curl it. When you first do it, the first night it's gunna be like perfect little ringlets, which is not really what you want. Which is kind of what I have on this side, I've already started. But when you sleep on it...so... you're preparing the day before you want your awesome hair. When you sleep on it, the next morning it's going to look amazing."
When you curl hair, it helps if you section it off and hold the sections you're not working on out of the way with clips or hair ties. The cloth hair tie sounds like a "scrunchie" which could hold the ends of the top ponytail up out of the way. Sectioning makes it much easier, less frustrating, and faster to curl the hair. You don't usually curl the top layer of hair first, then clip it out of your way because that would mess up your curls. You start curling the lower levels of hair and work your way up.
My theory:
I think PR was going to start with the lowest levels of hair, the little bit of hair in the front by her ears and the hair at the nape of the neck just behind the ear. After brushing all of JB's hair really well and perhaps adding a little hair styling product to protect the curl and help to hold the curls, I think she sectioned the hair and pulled just the hair at the top into a very high ponytail and secured it with a blue elastic band. She pulled less hair into the ponytail (didn't include all the hair by the ears) and made the ponytail HIGHER up on JB's head (top of her head not the back of the head) than it had been that morning. PR gathered the rest of the hair at the back into a low ponytail and secured that with a blue elastic band to keep it out of the way. She didn't need to wind the elastic bands really tightly because they weren't meant to stay in for long.
Then, PR put the scrunchie (called the "cloth hair tie" or "black/red/white hairtie" by the coroner and LE) over the blue elastic band of the top ponytail pulling the long strands all the way through. She wound it around another time again, pulling the ends through. Next, with the blue elastic hair tie holding the hair together on the top of her head with the scrunchie wound around it... she held the ponytail at the base over the scrunchie with one hand while she wound the hair into a loose bun or loop, then she twisted the scrunchie once again and slipped it over the hair to loosely secure the hair in a messy almost bun shape at the top of JB's head. This way PR wouldn't have to fight to keep the top layers of hair out of her way while she hurriedly curled the hair at the nape. The hair ties could be put in looser than usual because they weren't meant to hold the hair for a long time. This scenario makes sense of why JB had 2 ponytails and 3 "hairties." Hair-fixing intruders probably aren't impossible but PR was the one obsessed with JB's hair.
Patsy Ramsey: "Why is it so hard for people to understand that we loved this child with everything in our being?" We would never touch a hair on the head of one of our children. I mean it just is inconceivable to me."
http://www.jameson245.com/48hours2.htm
I think it is inconceivable to PR that this happened and that is why she is detached from it, because she just can't accept it. She flew into a rage and the curling iron was so hot that it took just mere seconds to do that damage. I believe she was fixing JB's beautiful blond hair and JB wanted to go play with her Dad and brother two floors below and she wouldn't sit still. PR just lost it and burned JB and JB hit her head on the tub or toilet in PR's bathroom. She didn't "touch a hair" on her head... there was NO scalp trauma. She loved JB and her beautiful blonde..."she's blonde" hair.
From the autopsy:
"The scalp is covered by long blond hair which is fixed in two ponytails, one on top of the head secured by a cloth hair tie and blue elastic band, and one in the lower back of the head secured by a blue elastic band. No scalp trauma is identified."
http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/jonbenet_ramsey/jonbenet_ramsey_autopsy.pdf
The Coroner, Dr. John E. Meyer MD, did not mention the color of the cloth hair tie but the search warrant does.
The search warrant list from 12/26 lists:
Black/red/white hairtie
Blue hairtie
Hairtie
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-Flight755-baggagecheck12261996.htm
Warning! Crime scene photo of the hair ties:
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-Flight755-baggagecheck12261996.htm
http://candycane121.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=31541595
Thanks, EastCoast. LOL. Photos were a priority for PR. JB's hair was a priority for PR. (Even in the 911 call..."She's blond.... she's blond." According to another poster, PR's friends were planning an "intervention" because of the "JonBenet thing." Apparently PR was so obsessed with JB being a beauty queen, her friends were concerned about it. No mom would try to do the hair? I think PR would. Look at all the photos, all the trophies for a six year old, and then look at the photo with JR's other kids.
Yes, it was Christmas vacation. That's exactly why she WOULD want to do her hair. Christmas was a huge deal for PR. Check out the home tour photos! Look at all the family photos in matching outfits. Christmas, photos, and Christmas photos were priorities for PR!!!!!! Are you saying someone who was recovering from cancer treatment who would go to all the trouble to decorate her home like she did wouldn't stay up a little later to do her little beauty queen's hair?
PR didn't "have" to do her hair all the time... I think she liked to do it and she had probably gotten pretty fast at it. Little girls don't have to wash their hair every day and curls hold better on hair that has been washed the day before. So PR probably didn't need to wash it. She might have planned to do JB's hair that night thinking they'd be home earlier than they were. With a few minutes with a curling iron, PR could put in tight spiral curls and by the next day her hair would be perfect for the family Christmas photos. (Not fake-looking pageant hair but lovely loose flowing curls... Be sure you've watched the video from post #26) It was late. But BR was building a toy with his Dad two floors below. Maybe Christmas music was playing. Would BR and JR have heard a scuffle up in PR's bathroom from down there?
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/photogallery/ramsey.html?curPhoto=1
I think PR wanted "her kids" to look perfect in the family photos with JR's kids the next day. I also think she wanted JB to take that red turtleneck outfit to wear for more photos so the two of them would match for the photos they'd be taking with JOHN's kids from his first family. (I wonder if they'd hired a professional photographer and scheduled a sitting? HMMM..)
I think PR was mad about having to leave her home with her little family to go see JR's kids. She was hurt about the My Twinn doll. She had probably gotten little sleep the night before helping Santa with the stockings and wrapping presents (she said she was down wrapping the 24th and 25th.) I think PR was tired, resentful, cranky and out of patience. I think PR was sick of the little power struggles. I think she flew into a rage when JB whined and wouldn't sit still. I don't think PR meant to do it. "We didn't mean for this to happen."
Nicely written; thanks for spending the time to put some of these different things together in one cohesive theory.
On the above bolding, given what we have learned about Patsy's childhood traumas AND what we know about her cancer diagnosis, I can easily see Patsy being on the obsessive-compulsive side with JB. She may well have been a 'mirror' for Patsy, a reflection of herself that must be perfect. Patsy had been ill for some time and probably felt her youth, vitality, and superficial 'looks' waning, so pushing a perfect JB out front and center so that JB could reflect glory on HER as 'architect' and the perfect mother seems plausible. If Patsy was obsessive-compulsive about her need for JB to always reflect well on HER, I have NO problem imagining her doing JB's hair that night, especially for the 'competitive' situation with the stepkids the next day. And if Patsy had routine issues with insomnia or night time discomfort due to her illness or fearful night ruminations, this is even more believable. She may well have thought the kids would sleep better on the plane the next day if they were up late, then just didn't want to admit it publicly because it didn't "fit" with the perfect mother image and also because it put the time of death uncomfortably close to the time she last saw JB. I feel sure she wanted to distance from that as far as she could without it being disproven.
I wish Burke would agree to professional hypnosis to ascertain details of that night that he may not remember consciously or accurately.
For what its worth, I knew a woman once who had stage 4 breast cancer and at the time was doing well following surgery and treatment. She had an eleven year old daughter that she clearly used to "cling to life" with, something of a floating life vest. She simply would NOT let that daughter live a normal eleven-year-old life, never had sleepovers, never could accept invitations without MOM being asked along (even among the closest friends, family, and neighbors), her mother spoke for her, chose for her, and dictated every detail of her existence. She just could not let go of the child for one second. I kinda got the idea that she felt if she let the daughter individuate and go on to live her own life that she would slip away and die, and be forgotten. As creepy as it seems, I can well imagine this woman "immortalizing" her daughter ahead of her own death so that they could live together in perfection in the hereafter.
http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm
3 LOU SMIT: Okay, we're still talking
4 Christmas day. And what time do you think you left
5 for the airport?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was after breakfast. You
7 know, 11, 12, probably somewhere there. I spent
8 some time, it was in the Steven's Aviation hangar.
9 There were a couple of mechanics there and running
10 boys. But the place was pretty well closed down.
11 But I spent some time cleaning it, having it
12 ready.
13 LOU SMIT: Anybody that you talked to or anything?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: I spoke to one of the line guys.
15 LOU SMIT: You know his name?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. He was just one of the
17 guys that was there on Christmas day. But the
18 airplane was in their hangar, in the maintenance
19 hangar. Which is not normally where it's kept. But
20 it was there that day. And I just puttered around
21 for a few hours actually. Probably got home about
22 threeish, probably.
23 LOU SMIT: Did you have a run-in with somebody
24 at the airport over the parking of the plane, that
25 I remember reading someplace; some guy that you
0096
1 had a run-in with at the airport? Could you just
2 think of that for a little bit?
3 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) I don't remember
4 that now.
5 LOU SMIT: I remember something (INAUDIBLE).
6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't specifically remember
7 anything like that.
8 LOU SMIT: So got home at about three?
9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
So it took JR 3 to 4 HOURS to drive to the airport, load the plane, clean and putter around, and then return home on CHRISTMAS DAY?????????? :waitasec:
Right....I wonder if PR bought that story when he got home?
3 LOU SMIT: Okay, we're still talking
4 Christmas day. And what time do you think you left
5 for the airport?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was after breakfast. You
7 know, 11, 12, probably somewhere there. I spent
8 some time, it was in the Steven's Aviation hangar.
9 There were a couple of mechanics there and running
10 boys. But the place was pretty well closed down.
11 But I spent some time cleaning it, having it
12 ready.
13 LOU SMIT: Anybody that you talked to or anything?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: I spoke to one of the line guys.
15 LOU SMIT: You know his name?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. He was just one of the
17 guys that was there on Christmas day. But the
18 airplane was in their hangar, in the maintenance
19 hangar. Which is not normally where it's kept. But
20 it was there that day. And I just puttered around
21 for a few hours actually. Probably got home about
22 threeish, probably.
23 LOU SMIT: Did you have a run-in with somebody
24 at the airport over the parking of the plane, that
25 I remember reading someplace; some guy that you
0096
1 had a run-in with at the airport? Could you just
2 think of that for a little bit?
3 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) I don't remember
4 that now.
5 LOU SMIT: I remember something (INAUDIBLE).
6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't specifically remember
7 anything like that.
8 LOU SMIT: So got home at about three?
9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
So it took JR 3 to 4 HOURS to drive to the airport, load the plane, clean and putter around, and then return home on CHRISTMAS DAY?????????? :waitasec:
Right....I wonder if PR bought that story when he got home?
http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm
I had gone out to the
5 airport Christmas day to kind of tinker with
6 airplane and load some presents and kind of get it
7 pre-loaded because we're going to leave early in
8 the morning. We had to be there, I wanted to be
9 there when the kids arrive in Minneapolis.
10 LOU SMIT: What kinds of presents did you
11 bring there (INAUDIBLE)?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we were going to have
13 a kind of second Christmas up in Charlevoix for
14 the big kids. And so we had their presents. We had
15 a few little extra presents for Burke and JonBenet
16 so they wouldn't feel left out.
17 So I guess I kind of fussed around that for a few
18 hours and then I came home.
19 LOU SMIT: Where were those presents kept?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well there were some presents
21 in a little, what we call, the butler's kitchen,
22 but it was a lower level kitchen. There were some
23 presents some presents down there. In fact, I
24 think I wrapped some Christmas day to take to the
25 airplane to get ready for the next day.
Hmmm...all this tinkering, puttering, fussing and WRAPPING? Wrapping present(s) to take where? To the airplane? uh, huh. Sure.
I had gone out to the
5 airport Christmas day to kind of tinker with
6 airplane and load some presents and kind of get it
7 pre-loaded because we're going to leave early in
8 the morning. We had to be there, I wanted to be
9 there when the kids arrive in Minneapolis.
10 LOU SMIT: What kinds of presents did you
11 bring there (INAUDIBLE)?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we were going to have
13 a kind of second Christmas up in Charlevoix for
14 the big kids. And so we had their presents. We had
15 a few little extra presents for Burke and JonBenet
16 so they wouldn't feel left out.
17 So I guess I kind of fussed around that for a few
18 hours and then I came home.
19 LOU SMIT: Where were those presents kept?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well there were some presents
21 in a little, what we call, the butler's kitchen,
22 but it was a lower level kitchen. There were some
23 presents some presents down there. In fact, I
24 think I wrapped some Christmas day to take to the
25 airplane to get ready for the next day.
Hmmm...all this tinkering, puttering, fussing and WRAPPING? Wrapping present(s) to take where? To the airplane? uh, huh. Sure.
eileenhawkeye
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http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm
I had gone out to the
5 airport Christmas day to kind of tinker with
6 airplane and load some presents and kind of get it
7 pre-loaded because we're going to leave early in
8 the morning. We had to be there, I wanted to be
9 there when the kids arrive in Minneapolis.
10 LOU SMIT: What kinds of presents did you
11 bring there (INAUDIBLE)?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we were going to have
13 a kind of second Christmas up in Charlevoix for
14 the big kids. And so we had their presents. We had
15 a few little extra presents for Burke and JonBenet
16 so they wouldn't feel left out.
17 So I guess I kind of fussed around that for a few
18 hours and then I came home.
19 LOU SMIT: Where were those presents kept?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well there were some presents
21 in a little, what we call, the butler's kitchen,
22 but it was a lower level kitchen. There were some
23 presents some presents down there. In fact, I
24 think I wrapped some Christmas day to take to the
25 airplane to get ready for the next day.
Hmmm...all this tinkering, puttering, fussing and WRAPPING? Wrapping present(s) to take where? To the airplane? uh, huh. Sure.
They were bringing presents to Michigan because they were going to celebrate Christmas with John's two kids from his first marriage. I hope I read your question right.
Thanks for responding! I know they were but I bet PR wrapped most of the presents. I think it is possible JR was wrapping present(s) for someone he saw either before or after fussing, puttering, tinkering, and loading the plane. Someone JR did NOT want PR to know about and presents he did NOT want her to see. I mean...3 to 4 hours and "tinkering" with the plane on CHRISTMAS DAY? I don't buy it and I bet PR grew suspicious when he was gone that long too.They were bringing presents to Michigan because they were going to celebrate Christmas with John's two kids from his first marriage. I hope I read your question right.
http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm
Hmmm...all this tinkering, puttering, fussing and WRAPPING? Wrapping present(s) to take where? To the airplane? uh, huh. Sure.
More about the plane...and JR's CLEANING. Cleaning the wheels of the plane while it is inside the hangar?
http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm
8 MIKE KANE: You said that you went down
9 the say before, I guess it was Christmas day, you
10 went down to prepare. What was your reasons to
11 cleaning?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean I spend more time on
13 the airplane on the ground than I do in the air. I
14 like to keep it clean and polished. And part of it
15 is just I like airplanes. It's fun to be around
16 them. And part of it is, if it's clean then you
17 know if there's a problem, because you can see it
18 right away. If there's an oil leak or a fuel leak.
19 I just like it to look -- if it looks right, it is
20 right. Plus Melinda's, who is my (INAUDIBLE)
21 fiancTe, who's going to be with us, and I wanted
22 the airplane to look nice. Make her feel
23 comfortable. I just like it to be clean.
24 So I spent some time cleaning. I cleaned the
25 wheels; I remember that being dirty. Just getting
0234
1 ready for a big trip.
2 MIKE KANE: And what was your family while
3 you were doing this?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy was home. I guess
5 the kids were playing. They were basically at
6 home.
7 MIKE KANE: Other than going to the Whites,
8 did you have any plans for Christmas day?
9 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
10 MIKE KANE: When you went to the airport,
11 Jeffco, did you usually drive?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
13 MIKE KANE: You have a place to park there?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I park near Steven's
15 Aviation, yeah.
So JR was cleaning the wheels of the plane while it was parked INSIDE the Steven's Aviation Hangar? Would that require a hose? Wouldn't cleaning the wheels normally be done OUTSIDE of the hangar? I don't clean the wheels of my car when it is parked in the garage. :waitasec:
It might require a hose, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were hoses and water available inside the hangar. It isn't like the inside of an garage (but I had a water spigot inside mine). And there may be an area similar to the kind of car washes where they are partially enclosed and hoses are available. We shouldn't assume that there was no water or hose available inside to wash the wheels.
He could also have been using a spray cleaner made just for that.
He could also have been using a spray cleaner made just for that.
DNASolves
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