Steve Thomas's Theory/Murder Timeline

[BOESP]

Of course, this is the same Linda Arndt that foolishly directed JR to search the house, with the end result of a highly compromised crime scene.

And, then you suggest that we should value her judgment regarding JR's culpability.

I value Arndt's statements more than I value the lying and story-changing from the Ramseys.

 

[redheadedgal]

I value Arndt's statements more than I value the lying and story-changing from the Ramseys.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124659"]Ramsey Documented Lies! - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[Tricia]

Very simply. The garrote is applied to keep bleeding to a minimum. She is then smashed over the head with a crowbar when she starts flailing her limbs.



Because screaming is impossible with a garrote around one's throat.



Not according to Cyril Wecht. Of course, it could have been the other way around, but I suspect that there would have been significant blood splatter considering the damage to the skull expressed in the autopsy photo.



If there was a scream, it was likely from the female burglar, upon her discovering that her psycho boyfriend had murdered JonBenet while she was writing the ransom note. The sound of metal clanging on concrete could have been caused by a crowbar being dropped on the basement floor.

Unless you can show in any logical way or point to anyone with the slightest bit of expertise that states any possibility a crowbar was used please stop posting about this topic. This adds nothing to the conversation .

 

[midwest mama]

E.DIII: Your intruder theory revolves around a burglary by a female who was known by JB, and the female's psychotic, murderous boyfriend.

Here's a quote from your post #132 above:

The plea by the female intruder to kidnap JonBenet rather than kill her was a sincere one. Unfortunately, she did not know that all the while she was writing the note, her male accomplice was busy murdering JonBenet.

OK, if the female was sincerely writing a ransom note in the hopes of kidnapping JB, and the plan was to extort money from JR followed by JR being able to pickup JB, how does that fit with the fact that JB STILL would have been able to ID the female afterward. (She did not want JB killed.) So why would kidnapping work to get the female burglar off the hook?

Then, once she discovered her psychotic boyfriend had murdered JB, why would she run off with him and leave the note behind, when her plan no longer held water? Even a dipsy-doodle would want to call the cops to protect herself from the chance he would then kill her also, right on the spot, since she could ID him at any time from that moment forward. Or at least she could have scooped up the ransom note, and used it as evidence that might help her turning states evidence against the murderer in the future. Better to do some time, alive in a jail, than to become the next target for a crazed freak.

You want someone who does not agree with you to consider logic and logical inference, (from your post #128 above: Not speculation, logic and logical inference. There's a difference. ). Believe me, I'm trying to do just that regarding your theory, but simply cannot.

So, I state again, I do not agree with your choice of suspects or your theory.
:moo:

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

Do you have anything to show that the garrote as applied to JBR would prevent her from screaming?

Yes, and you will find it in Grey's Anatomy (and I don't mean the T.V. show).

How would blood splatter through an undamaged scalp?

It wouldn't. Nevertheless, JBR's cranium experienced massive damage, and not the sort of damage that is likely to be caused by a momentary loss of self-control during an episode of parental rage over bedwetting, but the sort of damage that occurs through a very deliberate fatal blow with a heavy blunt object. A sizable piece of bone was punched out of her skull, along with the creation of an eight inch fissure across sutures. Was there some point you were trying to make?

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

OK, if the female was sincerely writing a ransom note in the hopes of kidnapping JB, and the plan was to extort money from JR followed by JR being able to pickup JB, how does that fit with the fact that JB STILL would have been able to ID the female afterward. (She did not want JB killed.) So why would kidnapping work to get the female burglar off the hook?

It wouldn't, which is probably why her psychopathic boyfriend killed JonBenet. He recognized that JonBenet would have to die eventually, and being devoid of all human empathy and sentiment, as psychopaths typically are, he acted deliberately and decisively, making absolutely certain that JonBenet was dead.

 

[wengr]

It wouldn't.

Well then WHY do you suspect that if the head blow came first that there "would be significant blood splatter"?

Nevertheless, JBR's cranium experienced massive damage, and not the sort of damage that is likely to be caused by a momentary loss of self-control during an episode of parental rage over bedwetting, but the sort of damage that occurs through a very deliberate fatal blow with a heavy blunt object. A sizable piece of bone was punched out of her skull, along with the creation of an eight inch fissure across sutures.

This is opinion. The edge of a toilet or the edge of the ceramic tiled tub surround can certainly cause this type of damage to a six year old.

Was there some point you were trying to make?

Yes. The point is - if your theory requires repeated speculation to be stated as fact, then maybe you need a better theory.

 

[Anyhoo]

JBR's cranium experienced massive damage, and not the sort of damage that is likely to be caused by a momentary loss of self-control during an episode of parental rage over bedwetting, but the sort of damage that occurs through a very deliberate fatal blow with a heavy blunt object. A sizable piece of bone was punched out of her skull, along with the creation of an eight inch fissure across sutures. Was there some point you were trying to make?

I come up against this every single time I consider the head blow and I must agree with Edmond here. The head blow was so severe that I don't think it was an accident but instead was a purposeful blow meant to be fatal. Nothing I have seen or heard anywhere on this forum has led me to think differently. This does not exclude RDI because certainly a Ramsey could have done it, but the motive/intent of the head blow would be different from most explanations I have ever read. If RDI, then the intent of one or both parents would seem to be the purposeful murder of their daughter, not accidental. And I would like to hear someone from the RDI side explain why one or both parents would want to kill their daughter purposefully, not accidently. The extreme force of the head blow is enhanced by the brutality of the garrote. You cannot separate the two. They are tied together and must be considered together. Although I expect many on the RDI side to disagree with me, this does not suggest that RDI unless a motive can be found for it. No motive I have ever read that one or both parents may have had adequatly explains this. Edmond has done nothing but to point this out very clearly and I for one appreciate his analysis.

 

[Nom de plume]

I come up against this every single time I consider the head blow and I must agree with Edmond here. The head blow was so severe that I don't think it was an accident but instead was a purposeful blow meant to be fatal. Nothing I have seen or heard anywhere on this forum has led me to think differently. This does not exclude RDI because certainly a Ramsey could have done it, but the motive/intent of the head blow would be different from most explanations I have ever read. If RDI, then the intent of one or both parents would seem to be the purposeful murder of their daughter, not accidental. And I would like to hear someone from the RDI side explain why one or both parents would want to kill their daughter purposefully, not accidently.

KISS rule. IMO it's the most obvious reason.

If JR was molesting his little girl and she decided it hurt and she didn't want to do it anymore, then threatened to tell, he would lose everything. House, family, business, money, life as he knew it, and would wind up in prison. At the very least, his life would be destroyed and he'd be forever seen as a child molester.

I know, I know, there's no evidence JR was a child molester. Well there IS evidence that SOMEONE was molesting her, and in the VAST majority of cases it's the father. There have also been rumors that Beth told friends he molested her and that she was so upset over it she tried to commit suicide. Where there's smoke there's usually fire.

And yes, I do believe that this was intentional murder. I don't necessarily think it was planned for that night, but circumstances led to it being that night.

 

[Anyhoo]

KISS rule. IMO it's the most obvious reason.

If JR was molesting his little girl and she decided it hurt and she didn't want to do it anymore, then threatened to tell, he would lose everything. House, family, business, money, life as he knew it, and would wind up in prison. At the very least, his life would be destroyed and he'd be forever seen as a child molester.

I know, I know, there's no evidence JR was a child molester. Well there IS evidence that SOMEONE was molesting her, and in the VAST majority of cases it's the father. There have also been rumors that Beth told friends he molested her and that she was so upset over it she tried to commit suicide. Where there's smoke there's usually fire.

And yes, I do believe that this was intentional murder. I don't necessarily think it was planned for that night, but circumstances led to it being that night.

Is there proven evidence that someone was molesting JBR? Could the apparent evidence of molestation be nothing more than staging, to give the appearance that the motive for the murder was rape when in reality rape had nothing to do with it? In other words, could this be nothing more than crime scene spoliation? My intuition tells me that there was not long term molestation even if there was vaginal trauma inflicted to fool LE.

It just does not add up for me that a man like JR would take such a risk. Also the timing of it is very suspect for me. On the night before they are to take a long trip this happens, when it could have happened at any other time? I don't like it as a theory. But I do like intentional murder as an explanation of JBR's death much more than accidental murder. If someone else can lay out a theory of why a Ramsey would intentionally murder their daughter (or sister), I would like to hear it.

 

[OpenMind4U]

I come up against this every single time I consider the head blow and I must agree with Edmond here. The head blow was so severe that I don't think it was an accident but instead was a purposeful blow meant to be fatal. Nothing I have seen or heard anywhere on this forum has led me to think differently. This does not exclude RDI because certainly a Ramsey could have done it, but the motive/intent of the head blow would be different from most explanations I have ever read. If RDI, then the intent of one or both parents would seem to be the purposeful murder of their daughter, not accidental. And I would like to hear someone from the RDI side explain why one or both parents would want to kill their daughter purposefully, not accidently. The extreme force of the head blow is enhanced by the brutality of the garrote. You cannot separate the two. They are tied together and must be considered together. Although I expect many on the RDI side to disagree with me, this does not suggest that RDI unless a motive can be found for it. No motive I have ever read that one or both parents may have had adequatly explains this. Edmond has done nothing but to point this out very clearly and I for one appreciate his analysis.

What about the RAGE? Would you agree that person in RAGE could deploy such a damage with the right weapon?...Now, result from the RAGE is not necessarily accidental or premeditated. Agree?...so, it could be brother, it could be father, it could be mother.....jmo

In regards of head blow and strangulation, yes you can separate these two...especially, when time between the head blow action and strangulation action is pretty much prolonged...according to some experts, the time = 90 min...how about that??? :banghead:

As you can see my friend, nothing is black and white in this case.

 

[Nom de plume]

Is there proven evidence that someone was molesting JBR? Could the apparent evidence of molestation be nothing more than staging, to give the appearance that the motive for the murder was rape when in reality rape had nothing to do with it? In other words, could this be nothing more than crime scene spoliation? My intuition tells me that there was not long term molestation even if there was vaginal trauma inflicted to fool LE.

It just does not add up for me that a man like JR would take such a risk. Also the timing of it is very suspect for me. On the night before they are to take a long trip this happens, when it could have happened at any other time? I don't like it as a theory. But I do like intentional murder as an explanation of JBR's death much more than accidental murder. If someone else can lay out a theory of why a Ramsey would intentionally murder their daughter (or sister), I would like to hear it.

Anyhoo where have you been? YES there is evidence of prior abuse! That has been discussed ad naseum and I'm almost certain you have been a part of some of those discussions! Now if you choose to disbelieve evidence there is nothing else to discuss. You asked for an RDI theory on why, and I gave you one. Guess you have to keep looking till you find one you like. My guess is that it happened that night because the old perv knew he wouldn't have another chance for a while and things got out of hand.

 

[DeeDee249]

Is there proven evidence that someone was molesting JBR? Could the apparent evidence of molestation be nothing more than staging, to give the appearance that the motive for the murder was rape when in reality rape had nothing to do with it? In other words, could this be nothing more than crime scene spoliation? My intuition tells me that there was not long term molestation even if there was vaginal trauma inflicted to fool LE.

It just does not add up for me that a man like JR would take such a risk. Also the timing of it is very suspect for me. On the night before they are to take a long trip this happens, when it could have happened at any other time? I don't like it as a theory. But I do like intentional murder as an explanation of JBR's death much more than accidental murder. If someone else can lay out a theory of why a Ramsey would intentionally murder their daughter (or sister), I would like to hear it.

There is solid evidence in the autopsy that some of the vaginal injuries occurred at least a day or more before. There were THREE OTHER males in the family that all had regular access to JB.

 

[DeeDee249]

Anyhoo where have you been? YES there is evidence of prior abuse! That has been discussed ad naseum and I'm almost certain you have been a part of some of those discussions! Now if you choose to disbelieve evidence there is nothing else to discuss. You asked for an RDI theory on why, and I gave you one. Guess you have to keep looking till you find one you like. My guess is that it happened that night because the old perv knew he wouldn't have another chance for a while and things got out of hand.

Some people only believe what they want to believe. If there was a VIDEO of it, some would STILL refuse to accept it.

 

[dodie20]

Is there proven evidence that someone was molesting JBR? Could the apparent evidence of molestation be nothing more than staging, to give the appearance that the motive for the murder was rape when in reality rape had nothing to do with it? In other words, could this be nothing more than crime scene spoliation? My intuition tells me that there was not long term molestation even if there was vaginal trauma inflicted to fool LE.

It just does not add up for me that a man like JR would take such a risk. Also the timing of it is very suspect for me. On the night before they are to take a long trip this happens, when it could have happened at any other time? I don't like it as a theory. But I do like intentional murder as an explanation of JBR's death much more than accidental murder. If someone else can lay out a theory of why a Ramsey would intentionally murder their daughter (or sister), I would like to hear it.

Intuition isn't science. After this 1st happened, I thought BR did it out of jealousy, my mother thought JR was a dirty old man, and hardly anybody I knew suspected PR...so much for intuition. As far as a man like JR not taking the risk? Men like him do it every single day. A pedophile is a pedophile no matter how much money he makes. As a matter of fact, a dr here killed himself when he knew he was going to be arrested for molesting a little girl. He had been getting away with it for years, but this was the end. So, I'm never surprised at what men like JR do.

 

[dodie20]

Is there proven evidence that someone was molesting JBR? Could the apparent evidence of molestation be nothing more than staging, to give the appearance that the motive for the murder was rape when in reality rape had nothing to do with it? In other words, could this be nothing more than crime scene spoliation? My intuition tells me that there was not long term molestation even if there was vaginal trauma inflicted to fool LE.

It just does not add up for me that a man like JR would take such a risk. Also the timing of it is very suspect for me. On the night before they are to take a long trip this happens, when it could have happened at any other time? I don't like it as a theory. But I do like intentional murder as an explanation of JBR's death much more than accidental murder. If someone else can lay out a theory of why a Ramsey would intentionally murder their daughter (or sister), I would like to hear it.

I feel the need to point something out in case you missed it. A grand jury voted to indict both Rs, (not just PR like so many expected), for this murder. And they voted based on CHILD ABUSE resulting in death. For these people to conclude that this is what happened, they saw convincing evidence that there was child abuse. And not only was there child abuse, but the abuse was so severe, that it resulted in JB's death. So, JR might convince some people that this is 'just more drama', because he's not the kind of man who would take this kind of risk, but I'm not buying it. On this matter, I'll defer to the grand jury, not John Ramsey.

 

[dodie20]

It is entirely possible that they fell asleep around 11pm, and the burglars arrived just after midnight.

I cannot attest to JR's circadian rhythms, and I don't think you can either.

I just thought of something. You say it's possible they were asleep at around 11? So, why did the Rs put JB's death as the 25th? If they were still awake at around 11, and JB was murdered before 12, they would have heard something. I don't know what time she died, but since the smell of decomposition was on her, I would think that maybe the Rs were right or pretty close with the 25th. moo

 

[Nom de plume]

I just thought of something. You say it's possible they were asleep at around 11? So, why did the Rs put JB's death as the 25th? If they were still awake at around 11, and JB was murdered before 12, they would have heard something. I don't know what time she died, but since the smell of decomposition was on her, I would think that maybe the Rs were right or pretty close with the 25th. moo

The date of the 25th on her marker has always puzzled me. Why would they do that since the ME said she died around 1:00 am on the 26th? Only reason I can think of is that they KNEW she died before midnight. As with all things "Patsy" everything must be proper, even if it's a glaring indication of guilt.

 

[midwest mama]

The date of the 25th on her marker has always puzzled me. Why would they do that since the ME said she died around 1:00 am on the 26th? Only reason I can think of is that they KNEW she died before midnight. As with all things "Patsy" everything must be proper, even if it's a glaring indication of guilt.

Once again, here is an answer, straight from the lizard lips: (during an interview)

Response (John):``Of course, we don't know exactly when JonBenet died.... Her small body was cool and rigid when I found her (the morning of Dec. 26). I selected Dec. 25 because I didn't want the world to ever forget what it did to our daughter on the day of joy and peace, Christmas Day. I want people 50 years from now, a hundred years from now, to look at that marker and say,`The world went mad on that Christmas Day.'''

In other words, IMO, he felt it was his right to decry the decision of experts who used scientific methods to determine she died on the 26th, in favor of being able to shift the blame of her death on what the world had created in the personna of a heinous, murdering, monster. Why does everything he is involved in end of having to be about what HE wants, and what HE thinks? :yuck:

 

[Nom de plume]

Once again, here is an answer, straight from the lizard lips: (during an interview)

Response (John):``Of course, we don't know exactly when JonBenet died.... Her small body was cool and rigid when I found her (the morning of Dec. 26). I selected Dec. 25 because I didn't want the world to ever forget what it did to our daughter on the day of joy and peace, Christmas Day. I want people 50 years from now, a hundred years from now, to look at that marker and say,`The world went mad on that Christmas Day.'''

In other words, IMO, he felt it was his right to decry the decision of experts who used scientific methods to determine she died on the 26th, in favor of being able to shift the blame of her death on what the world had created in the personna of a heinous, murdering, monster. Why does everything he is involved in end of having to be about what HE wants, and what HE thinks? :yuck:

CBM Very interesting choice of word there. He should have just dropped the "t" and would have been far more accurate! :banghead:

You're so right about "it's all about me" John. Still, when we're talking about an hour one way or the other... They can only be so accurate sooo long after her death. I believe she DID die on the 25th and this was a big "tell" on the R's part.