The bed-wetting theory

[DeeDee249]

Hmm, it certainly looks like something heavy had been there and then removed, as it's much too sharp an outline to have been from someone kneeling (which was what I thought too at first). But my understanding of these photos is that they were taken immediately after her body was found, so whatever had been there was already moved before the cops starting collecting evidence. I'm sure that eventually I'll remember what makes a shape like that, because it seems familiar.

Remember that the round part may be the mark from the object and the wide, long part may be where it was slid across the floor.
There were paint cans reportedly found in that room, too, and the sound of paint cans being slid across the floor will also produce the sound of metal scraping concrete.

 

[MurriFlower]

Remember that the round part may be the mark from the object and the wide, long part may be where it was slid across the floor.
There were paint cans reportedly found in that room, too, and the sound of paint cans being slid across the floor will also produce the sound of metal scraping concrete.

No, I think if it was something dragged that removed the powder, you would see a pile of the powder at the end of the drag mark. The wide part is quite square/straight. The powder is thicker at the round end. It really does look like something has been removed from there that had been sitting in that position for a fair while.

Notice also how there is no powder in the left foreground of the photo. It is possible the child in the blanket was dragged from the hallway into the wine cellar (a matter of only a few feet).

 

[Ames]

Not dragged into the wineceller, though. There would be evidence of that in the mold on the floor. She was carried in there, lifted and placed on the blanket, which had been placed on the floor first.

I personally don't believe that she was dragged at all...now that I think of it, there would have been some sort of evidence of that. IMO

 

[Bennettras]

Murriflower,

If I am looking at the part of the picture you are writing about, could it be that the smaller round part is a knee where someone knelt and the longer part is where the lower leg slid a bit side-to-side, with jeans/pants on when the person got up?

I am just vexed!!! I like the word too. :dance:

 

[MurriFlower]

Murriflower,

If I am looking at the part of the picture you are writing about, could it be that the smaller round part is a knee where someone knelt and the longer part is where the lower leg slid a bit side-to-side, with jeans/pants on when the person got up?

I am just vexed!!! I like the word too. :dance:

Like I said previously, this was my first thought. However, on closer inspection, I think the edges are too well defined. Pity we can't see the other edge (RHS), which is hidden by the blanket.

I try not to be vexed but sometimes it's unavoidable :waitasec:

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm always vexed about something or other...but that keeps me on my toes.

 

[claudicici]

I think you're right Murry about the sharp edges.

 

[Bennettras]

I try not to be vexed but sometimes it's unavoidable :waitasec:

I'm always vexed about something or other...but that keeps me on my toes.

I was talking about more than just kneeling. More like right foot on the ground and no part of the right leg on ground. Left knee on the ground with lower leg extended out, and heavy material made pants, stiff almost that are wider than the leg, and when you get up, your leg goes from side-to-side and keeps a rather straight line because of the weight of the fabric and stiffness of the fabric. You are right, if we could see the part obscured by the blanket, it may reveal much more. WE NEED MORE CRIME SCENE PHOTOS!!!!! Oh if I were King!!!! :Crown:


Crime pictures vex me...very unavoidable.....and my toes are sore. :truce:

 

[ukrberserker]

It's important though,no?WHERE she got dirty,in the basement or not.

DeeDee explained it more clearer.

The coroner's report said there was lint on her feet. That would have come from somewhere near a clothes drier. I believe there was one in the basement. I also read somewhere else on here that there was a puddle of urine on the floor outside the train room, or the wine cellar. The bed doesn't look wet. My stepdaughter was still wetting the the bed occasionally when she was 9 years old. Wasn't daily,or even weekly, but maybe once or twice a month. She is twelve now, and normal. Some kids just can't wake up.

 

[Darlene733510]

As I look at the bottom rt side of this print, I can't tell if the object is over the blanket or under it. If you take a good look, it seems there is a space under that rt. side where it abutes the blanket. The slight space goes to the left. The top looks quite round. I wonder if the doll was there, and moved when JR picked her up to carry her upstairs?

 

[DeeDee249]

The coroner's report said there was lint on her feet. That would have come from somewhere near a clothes drier. I believe there was one in the basement. I also read somewhere else on here that there was a puddle of urine on the floor outside the train room, or the wine cellar. The bed doesn't look wet. My stepdaughter was still wetting the the bed occasionally when she was 9 years old. Wasn't daily,or even weekly, but maybe once or twice a month. She is twelve now, and normal. Some kids just can't wake up.

There was never a puddle of urine anywhere. But there was said to be creatinine (dried urine) on a carpeted area of the basement outside the wine cellar. The paint tote, still containing one of the pieces of the broken paintbrush, was also in this same area. The bed wasn't wet. But the sheets also contained creatinine. (dried urine). The problem with JB and wetting isn't that she wet the bed every single night...many kids so still wet the bed at that age. The REAL problem was that she wet during the day- and soiled too. When a child of that age, especially one that has been potty trained already for three YEARS, begins to urinate and poop in her pants nearly every day that is a MAJOR red flag- and is indicative of serious disturbances in the child's life. It isn't just wetting the bed. This was MUCH more.

 

[Darlene733510]

I wonder if JB had any accidents while she was at school? I think I read here somewhere that Monday was usually a bad day for her. So.......weekends must have been when she was sexually molested. Then, on the 23rd when she didn't t feel pretty, was probably when the schools, and colleges were on Christmas break. Grandpa Paugh had an apartment in Boulder, and I wonder if JB ever visited or spent the night there. During the time when PR was so ill from the cancer treatments, poor JB was not properly supervised, so it was an opportune time for the predator to act.
I wonder if Kolar saw any of the records from when her teachers were questioned?

 

[Nom de plume]

I wonder if JB had any accidents while she was at school? I think I read here somewhere that Monday was usually a bad day for her. So.......weekends must have been when she was sexually molested. Then, on the 23rd when she didn't t feel pretty, was probably when the schools, and colleges were on Christmas break. Grandpa Paugh had an apartment in Boulder, and I wonder if JB ever visited or spent the night there. During the time when PR was so ill from the cancer treatments, poor JB was not properly supervised, so it was an opportune time for the predator to act.
I wonder if Kolar saw any of the records from when her teachers were questioned?

ITA Darlene! I wouldn't be surprised if JB was a victim of all the men in that family. Did we ever know what day JAR flew to Atlanta? DP sure hustled it out of town fast on the 24th too. I always thought it was really strange that DP & NP didn't come to Boulder when JB was murdered.

 

[Chrishope]

ITA Darlene! I wouldn't be surprised if JB was a victim of all the men in that family. Did we ever know what day JAR flew to Atlanta? DP sure hustled it out of town fast on the 24th too. I always thought it was really strange that DP & NP didn't come to Boulder when JB was murdered.

Yes. He flew to Atlanta on 12/19/1996

He is placed at Lucinda's, near Atlanta, (Roswell to be specific) on the afternoon of the 25th, exchanging gifts with his mother. Later that evening he is at church (Peachtree Presbyterian) along with friend Harry Smiles. Still later on the 25th, about 8:30pm, he is at Brad Millard's playing video games. Even later, Brad places JAR at the ATM machine at a store in Marietta. Finally, as if there were not enough activity and witness on the 25th, he attends a movie with Brad Millard and Chris Stanley.

Back at his mom's house at 1am, the 26th. 8:30 am, the 26th JAR flies to Minneapolis.


To entertain a JARDI theory you must first explain the flight on the 19th.

After that you must include Lucinda, Brad, Chris, and Harry as co-conspirators.

Anything is possible, many fewer things are probable.

JARDI is not very probable.

 

[DeeDee249]

I wonder if JB had any accidents while she was at school? I think I read here somewhere that Monday was usually a bad day for her. So.......weekends must have been when she was sexually molested. Then, on the 23rd when she didn't t feel pretty, was probably when the schools, and colleges were on Christmas break. Grandpa Paugh had an apartment in Boulder, and I wonder if JB ever visited or spent the night there. During the time when PR was so ill from the cancer treatments, poor JB was not properly supervised, so it was an opportune time for the predator to act.
I wonder if Kolar saw any of the records from when her teachers were questioned?

The school refused to turn over JB's records, including the school nurse's records. And the DA refused to ask for a warrant to obtain them. BR's records, including medical, were also kept from LE. I have always been very suspicious of this. There has to be something in there that the Rs needed to keep hidden. There is simply no other reason to deny access of a murdered child's school and nurse records to the very people trying to solve her murder. Unless you don't want it solved.

 

[Darlene733510]

DeeDee - being this case is so old, if the present DA wanted to check what those records contained, would he be able to issue a warrant to get them? Did you ever hear of Burke having any problems at school? It seems these two children only had wetting and fecal accidents at home. In JB's case, I would guess that there were concerns of the nurse, and her teachers that were discussed with PR?

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee - being this case is so old, if the present DA wanted to check what those records contained, would he be able to issue a warrant to get them? Did you ever hear of Burke having any problems at school? It seems these two children only had wetting and fecal accidents at home. In JB's case, I would guess that there were concerns of the nurse, and her teachers that were discussed with PR?

A judge must issue a warrant for things like this. And the DA could always ask a judge for the warrant. But I don't think any subsequent DA has the courage to do it. I haven't heard of any specific problems BR ever had in school. I think his high school and college years were pretty normal. He had friends, girlfriends. Nothing that would indicate there had been this kind of horrible event in his family. Actually, that in itself is odd. He once said to a psychologist who interviewed him just after JB's murder that he "just wanted to get on with my life". This was DAYS after JB's murder. This was his sister-found dead in a gruesome murder in his own home. And he certainly DID get on with his life. You'd never know he had a sister who had been murdered. Of course, no one here knows him and so we do not know his private thoughts on the matter.
BR was said to have wet the bed when he was JB's age and it supposedly stopped when Patsy began to focus on JB and her pageant "career"
As all of JB's school records were sealed, we do not know whether any of her teachers spoke to Patsy about her.
Again- the bedwetting itself is not unheard of in kids this age. But wetting and soling (pooping) in clothes while awake is VERY unusual in kids this age and always cause for concern, especially in kids who have already been potty trained for years,

 

[midwest mama]

A judge must issue a warrant for things like this. And the DA could always ask a judge for the warrant. But I don't think any subsequent DA has the courage to do it. I haven't heard of any specific problems BR ever had in school. I think his high school and college years were pretty normal. He had friends, girlfriends. Nothing that would indicate there had been this kind of horrible event in his family. Actually, that in itself is odd. He once said to a psychologist who interviewed him just after JB's murder that he "just wanted to get on with my life". This was DAYS after JB's murder. This was his sister-found dead in a gruesome murder in his own home. And he certainly DID get on with his life. You'd never know he had a sister who had been murdered. Of course, no one here knows him and so we do not know his private thoughts on the matter.
BR was said to have wet the bed when he was JB's age and it supposedly stopped when Patsy began to focus on JB and her pageant "career"
As all of JB's school records were sealed, we do not know whether any of her teachers spoke to Patsy about her.
Again- the bedwetting itself is not unheard of in kids this age. But wetting and soling (pooping) in clothes while awake is VERY unusual in kids this age and always cause for concern, especially in kids who have already been potty trained for years,

Good post. Just one reminder about Burke's bedwetting. The housekeeper just prior to LHP stated (in PMPT, IIRC) that Burke was still having bedwetting issues when she left the Ramsey's employ in the fall of 1995. He would have been approaching 9 years old at that time.

Also, JR said in interviews with LE that his older kids were bedwetters also.

 

[UKGuy]

Good post. Just one reminder about Burke's bedwetting. The housekeeper just prior to LHP stated (in PMPT, IIRC) that Burke was still having bedwetting issues when she left the Ramsey's employ in the fall of 1995. He would have been approaching 9 years old at that time.

Also, JR said in interviews with LE that his older kids were bedwetters also.

midwest mama,

This might be Linda Wilcox?

Perfect Murder/Perfect Town, excerpt

After Patsy finished decorating the house, Burke became her favorite child. She spent all of her time at his school. He was her first project

When the police interviewed me, they asked if the kids wet the bed a lot. I said yes. Detective Harmer asked if I thought that was unusual, and I had to say, “Not really. Not at that age.” Burke wore Pull-Ups until he was six, and JonBenét always wore them. But I also told the police it was curious to me that Burke stopped wetting the bed when he stopped being the focus of Patsy’s attention. And that was when JonBenét became a chronic bed wetter. But you know if you have little kids around that age, they are bed wetters. When I left in September of 1995, they were both still wetting their beds.

Nedra Paugh also had some input into the mix here.



.

 

[midwest mama]

Thanks, UKGuy, for posting the quotes by Wilcox.

Interesting that JB was turning 3 at about the time Burke was able to be out of pull-ups. From the time she turned 3 until she was killed, that's when the 33 trips to the doctor began. I'm interpreting L. Wilcox to say Burke went from needing routine pull-ups until age 6, to having some nighttime bed-wetting issues until September 1995.:facepalm: