Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder? #2

[guruagain]

What did SA have to lose by the taking the test ? If he did not pass, KZ does include the results and does not even bring it up. No different than the a lie detector test. And how reliable is a test that is taken 10+ years after the actual murder ? I'll bet none of you can lay out what you did on 10/31/05 and if SA is indeed innocent, he would not be able to remember either as it was "just another day".

And what benefit would this have for any of her other "suspects" if they already know they are innocent ? You'd have to be a fool to subject yourself to a test like this.

That isn't how KZ operates. She told Steven that the test was 100% and that it had been used in court because she wanted to be sure herself. She would not hide it if it hadn't suited her. She would have dropped Avery at the first suspicion that he was guilty.

 

[Sustained]

That isn't how KZ operates. She told Steven that the test was 100% and that it had been used in court because she wanted to be sure herself. She would not hide it if it hadn't suited her. She would have dropped Avery at the first suspicion that he was guilty.

BBM - pure nonsense - who calls Auto Trader at 8:15am and gives the name B.Janda when TH had already been out to the ASY many times ? To sell a van BT didn't even want to sell ? Obviously, SA had TH's phone # - he called her twice around 2:30 using *67. Why not just call AT or TH and say "Hi ... Steven Avery here ... I have a van I'd like photographed for AT out at the ASY yard - if you send the girl who was here before, she is familiar on how to get here as she has been here many times."

Why did SA call TH back @ 4:35pm to come back for another shoot (in his words) when she had left (according to him) about 2 hours earlier ? And NOT USE *67 ?
Did he really think she was still in the area ? And if she didn't answer @ 4:35pm, why didn't Avery call AT to schedule the extra shoot ?

Why did SA tell CA that TH had not showed up ? (according to Fabian)

Who calls his nephew's former girlfriend the night before TH's disappearance and tells to come over so they can make the "headboard hit the wall" ?

Who buys handcuffs when he knows his GF is not getting out of jail right away ? Was there a sale somewhere ?

I could go on and on but the pro-Avery crowd is so dazzled by KZ's reputation and "experts", that they would believe Andrew Colborn committed the murder.

I honestly can't believe anyone would think SA innocent with his violent track record with women and the incidents with minors that were swept under the rug.

 

[CoolJ]

BBM - pure nonsense - who calls Auto Trader at 8:15am and gives the name B.Janda when TH had already been out to the ASY many times ? To sell a van BT didn't even want to sell ? Obviously, SA had TH's phone # - he called her twice around 2:30 using *67. Why not just call AT or TH and say "Hi ... Steven Avery here ... I have a van I'd like photographed for AT out at the ASY yard - if you send the girl who was here before, she is familiar on how to get here as she has been here many times."

Why did SA call TH back @ 4:35pm to come back for another shoot (in his words) when she had left (according to him) about 2 hours earlier ? And NOT USE *67 ?
Did he really think she was still in the area ? And if she didn't answer @ 4:35pm, why didn't Avery call AT to schedule the extra shoot ?

Why did SA tell CA that TH had not showed up ? (according to Fabian)

Who calls his nephew's former girlfriend the night before TH's disappearance and tells to come over so they can make the "headboard hit the wall" ?

Who buys handcuffs when he knows his GF is not getting out of jail right away ? Was there a sale somewhere ?

I could go on and on but the pro-Avery crowd is so dazzled by KZ's reputation and "experts", that they would believe Andrew Colborn committed the murder.

I honestly can't believe anyone would think SA innocent with his violent track record with women and the incidents with minors that were swept under the rug.

There are so many factual errors in this post i don't know where to start. Suffice to say almost everything written here is "pure nonsense". It is clear everything you regurgitate here is coming from Griesbachs books.

With all due respect, your views on this case are fundamentally flawed.

 

[proudfootz]

Barb's kids knew she was selling the van, so it seems unlikely Steven was pulling a fast one.

If indeed there was a plan to 'lure' Teresa with the aim of abducting her there would be no need to involve anyone else or announce that she was coming and that you needed to take time off work to meet her. Nor was there any need to involve Auto Trader because Steven had a direct number to contact her.

IMO the 'luring' theory put forward by the prosecution fails in every aspect of being a plausible plan.

 

[Sustained]

There are so many factual errors in this post i don't know where to start. Suffice to say almost everything written here is "pure nonsense". It is clear everything you regurgitate here is coming from Griesbachs books.

With all due respect, your views on this case are fundamentally flawed.

With all due respect ...

Were you there ? Nothing in that post comes from Griesbach's books. Let's see ... SA dousing a cat with gasoline and throwing it on a fire. That must be made up as well.
SA masturbating in public in front of Sandra Morris. Must be made up as well. SA physically assaulting Jodi ... gotta be made up. Your facts are obviously distorted as a crusader against convictions YOU think are unjust. Gets to a point where folks like you say EVERYTHING about SA is made up because he is a church-going saint of man who never would take a chance on going back to prison. All those stories about underage molestation ? Must all be made up.

You are so starstruck by KZ you refuse the see the truth about the piece of scum SA really is and how he took an innocent girl's life with the help of his tag-a-long nephew.

Poor SA ... since he spent 18 years on a wrongful conviction, this one MUST be wrongful as well.

Too bad KZ was not around when John Gacy was convicted. Perhaps she could've got him off by pointing the finger elsewhere.

None of the pro-Avery crowd would even be involved had not Avery been wrongfully convicted earlier and filed a 36 million $ lawsuit, KK not been the prosecutor, or Making A Murderer not filmed. SA would be rotting in jail where he belongs.

 

[Sustained]

Barb's kids knew she was selling the van, so it seems unlikely Steven was pulling a fast one.

If indeed there was a plan to 'lure' Teresa with the aim of abducting her there would be no need to involve anyone else or announce that she was coming and that you needed to take time off work to meet her. Nor was there any need to involve Auto Trader because Steven had a direct number to contact her.

IMO the 'luring' theory put forward by the prosecution fails in every aspect of being a plausible plan.

Barb did not want the van sold. But why did SA call Auto Trader and pretend to be B.Janda ? Why not call as himself and say his sister wanted to sell her van ? You even say that SA had TH's number ? Why not call her directly ? This is an obvious attempt to disguise who really wanted the photos of the van taken. And why call use *67 to disguise the calls right around the time TH was about to show up ?

And maybe his plan all along was to say TH never showed up. I'm sure he did not anticipate BoD seeing her out the window. Kinda hard to lie to your brothers when eventually it would get back to them that BoD saw TH.

 

[Karinna]

With all due respect ...

Were you there ? Nothing in that post comes from Griesbach's books. Let's see ... SA dousing a cat with gasoline and throwing it on a fire. That must be made up as well.
SA masturbating in public in front of Sandra Morris. Must be made up as well. SA physically assaulting Jodi ... gotta be made up. Your facts are obviously distorted as a crusader against convictions YOU think are unjust. Gets to a point where folks like you say EVERYTHING about SA is made up because he is a church-going saint of man who never would take a chance on going back to prison. All those stories about underage molestation ? Must all be made up.

You are so starstruck by KZ you refuse the see the truth about the piece of scum SA really is and how he took an innocent girl's life with the help of his tag-a-long nephew.

Poor SA ... since he spent 18 years on a wrongful conviction, this one MUST be wrongful as well.

Too bad KZ was not around when John Gacy was convicted. Perhaps she could've got him off by pointing the finger elsewhere.

None of the pro-Avery crowd would even be involved had not Avery been wrongfully convicted earlier and filed a 36 million $ lawsuit, KK not been the prosecutor, or Making A Murderer not filmed. SA would be rotting in jail where he belongs.

Even if all that were true, which it isn't, it doesn't make SA a murderer. ST also has a violent history against women with a criminal record, what about that?
And there were others that lived on the ASY that did have as well.
No and we weren't there but it is documented evidence that you can read if you want to look for it.

 

[Karinna]

With all due respect ...

Were you there ? Nothing in that post comes from Griesbach's books. Let's see ... SA dousing a cat with gasoline and throwing it on a fire. That must be made up as well.
SA masturbating in public in front of Sandra Morris. Must be made up as well. SA physically assaulting Jodi ... gotta be made up. Your facts are obviously distorted as a crusader against convictions YOU think are unjust. Gets to a point where folks like you say EVERYTHING about SA is made up because he is a church-going saint of man who never would take a chance on going back to prison. All those stories about underage molestation ? Must all be made up.

You are so starstruck by KZ you refuse the see the truth about the piece of scum SA really is and how he took an innocent girl's life with the help of his tag-a-long nephew.

Poor SA ... since he spent 18 years on a wrongful conviction, this one MUST be wrongful as well.

Too bad KZ was not around when John Gacy was convicted. Perhaps she could've got him off by pointing the finger elsewhere.

None of the pro-Avery crowd would even be involved had not Avery been wrongfully convicted earlier and filed a 36 million $ lawsuit, KK not been the prosecutor, or Making A Murderer not filmed. SA would be rotting in jail where he belongs.

Do you seriously think KZ would spend so much of her own time and money on SA if she felt he was guilty? That's a ridiculous concept in and of itself for her to do so.

 

[proudfootz]

Barb did not want the van sold.

Yet everyone else in the Janda household seems to have known that Barb was selling the van.

But why did SA call Auto Trader and pretend to be B.Janda ?

AFAICT Steven never pretended to be anyone. Since Barb was the owner of the van, obviously her name would be used.

A real fraud would be Steven pretending the van was his.

Why not call as himself and say his sister wanted to sell her van ?

I have no information that Steven did not call as himself. Was he talking in a falsetto or something? LOL!

You even say that SA had TH's number ? Why not call her directly ? This is an obvious attempt to disguise who really wanted the photos of the van taken.

Neither obvious nor plausible.

And why call use *67 to disguise the calls right around the time TH was about to show up ?

Is the implication Steven would be trying to disguise his voice or something had Teresa picked up? LOL!

And maybe his plan all along was to say TH never showed up.

As I have no reason to speculate there was any 'plan' to deceive anyone I have no reason to speculate your suggestion was a part of such a scheme.

Also pretty poor plan as Teresa would very likely be observed arriving as she drove past the offices of the salvage yard, and the residences of several people living on the property.

I'm sure he did not anticipate BoD seeing her out the window. Kinda hard to lie to your brothers when eventually it would get back to them that BoD saw TH.

How would Steven know who might have observed Teresa's arrival and departure? It was a place of business during business hours, an expected visit from Teresa, at a place where other people lived. Almost a guarantee Teresa would be observed.

The so-called 'luring' theory makes no sense whatsoever.

All MOO

 

[Sustained]

Even if all that were true, which it isn't, it doesn't make SA a murderer. ST also has a violent history against women with a criminal record, what about that?
And there were others that lived on the ASY that did have as well.
No and we weren't there but it is documented evidence that you can read if you want to look for it.

ST's DNA was not found in the car or on the hood latch. Brendan Dassey also did not implicate ST in the murder of TH. You can twist any of the CASO reports or evidence any way you want.

 

[Sustained]

Do you seriously think KZ would spend so much of her own time and money on SA if she felt he was guilty? That's a ridiculous concept in and of itself for her to do so.

Not really if it eventually garners her millions in eventual book sales and oodles of publicity. Guaranteed she is going to make a killing on the Avery case. As I have said before, if she gets Avery out on a Hail Mary, she's a hero to many like you. If she doesn't, everyone like you will blame it on the judicial system and how unfair it is. She wins either way. The only way she loses is if SA comes out and admits slaughtering TH.

 

[Karinna]

ST's DNA was not found in the car or on the hood latch. Brendan Dassey also did not implicate ST in the murder of TH. You can twist any of the CASO reports or evidence any way you want.

I am purely going on KZ's findings in her investigation. She is doing a thorough investigation that SA never got with the Keystone cops in MC. And you can believe whatever you want, but i will go with the experts findings thanks.

 

[Sustained]

Yet everyone else in the Janda household seems to have known that Barb was selling the van.


AFAICT Steven never pretended to be anyone. Since Barb was the owner of the van, obviously her name would be used.

A real fraud would be Steven pretending the van was his.


I have no information that Steven did not call as himself. Was he talking in a falsetto or something? LOL!


Neither obvious nor plausible.


Is the implication Steven would be trying to disguise his voice or something had Teresa picked up? LOL!



As I have no reason to speculate there was any 'plan' to deceive anyone I have no reason to speculate your suggestion was a part of such a scheme.

Also pretty poor plan as Teresa would very likely be observed arriving as she drove past the offices of the salvage yard, and the residences of several people living on the property.



How would Steven know who might have observed Teresa's arrival and departure? It was a place of business during business hours, an expected visit from Teresa, at a place where other people lived. Almost a guarantee Teresa would be observed.

The so-called 'luring' theory makes no sense whatsoever.

All MOO

The luring theory makes plenty of sense to me ... angry man, GF in prison, not getting any sex, history of violence toward women, 18 years of pent up anger.

And even if he didn't lure her, raping and murdering her on 10/31/05 after she snapped pictures of a van makes him a sick and deranged animal that needs to be locked up for life. And for him to include his nephew in the crime makes him even sicker.

I am purely going on KZ's findings in her investigation. She is doing a thorough investigation that SA never got with the Keystone cops in MC. And you can believe whatever you want, but i will go with the experts findings thanks.

Who is paying for the experts ? Like I said before, if KZ is fortunate enough to get as far as an evidentiary hearing, the state will get their own experts at the expense of the taxpayers.

 

[CoolJ]

With all due respect ...

Were you there ? Nothing in that post comes from Griesbach's books. Let's see ... SA dousing a cat with gasoline and throwing it on a fire. That must be made up as well.
SA masturbating in public in front of Sandra Morris. Must be made up as well. SA physically assaulting Jodi ... gotta be made up. Your facts are obviously distorted as a crusader against convictions YOU think are unjust. Gets to a point where folks like you say EVERYTHING about SA is made up because he is a church-going saint of man who never would take a chance on going back to prison. All those stories about underage molestation ? Must all be made up.

You are so starstruck by KZ you refuse the see the truth about the piece of scum SA really is and how he took an innocent girl's life with the help of his tag-a-long nephew.

Poor SA ... since he spent 18 years on a wrongful conviction, this one MUST be wrongful as well.

Too bad KZ was not around when John Gacy was convicted. Perhaps she could've got him off by pointing the finger elsewhere.

None of the pro-Avery crowd would even be involved had not Avery been wrongfully convicted earlier and filed a 36 million $ lawsuit, KK not been the prosecutor, or Making A Murderer not filmed. SA would be rotting in jail where he belongs.

I'm really sorry you feel this way.

I think you have been manipulated by a biased author with a political agenda.

Just remember, one of us is dead wrong and i think it will proven which one that is. I will still be here when that happens.

ETA - by the way I am not "pro-Avery", I could truly care less about Avery. I am anti-corruption, through and through.

 

[CoolJ]

Do you seriously think KZ would spend so much of her own time and money on SA if she felt he was guilty? That's a ridiculous concept in and of itself for her to do so.

It is absolutely a ridiculous concept.

The "pro- corrupt authorities" crowd would have you believe that Zellner is a money hungry fame seeking narcissist. They say this while she is spending 7 figures of her own coin, putting her entire professional reputation on the line, all to help a man get out of prison in a case that they say she can't win.

Let's analyze this for a second:

money hungry yet investing $1,000,000+ , but she will never win the case hmm....
fame seeker doing this only to promote her name, yet she is putting her reputation on the line in a case she cannot win hmm...

 

[Sustained]

The luring theory makes plenty of sense to me ... angry man, GF in prison, not getting any sex, history of violence toward women, 18 years of pent up anger.

And even if he didn't lure her, raping and murdering her on 10/31/05 after she snapped pictures of a van makes him a sick and deranged animal that needs to be locked up for life. And for him to include his nephew in the crime makes him even sicker.



Who is paying for the experts ?

I'm really sorry you feel this way.

I think you have been manipulated by a biased author with a political agenda.

Just remember, one of us is dead wrong and i think it will proven which one that is. I will still be here when that happens.

ETA - by the way I am not "pro-Avery", I could truly care less about Avery. I am anti-corruption, through and through.

Let's get something clear ....

I suggest you back off of your comments toward me about being manipulated by one man's book about the case. I could say that you have been
manipulated by the MaM series and are star-struck by KZ. But I don't know you, so that wouldn't be fair.

I have watched both MaM1 and MaM2 in their entirety. I have read everything on Reddit both pro and con against Steven Avery. I have also read Griesbach book.
I look forward also to the "Convicting a Murderer" series. I have read most of the police reports and the trial transcripts. I have read KZ's tweets. I come to my own conclusions about the murder based on the totality of what I've seen and read. I also know people seeking publicity at any level come out of the woodwork when
series like MaM come out, i.e. Lynn Hartman.

And as far as being "dead wrong", being innocent and not-guilty are indeed two different things. If KZ gets SA out on a technicality, he could still be guilty of murdering
TH. If KZ eventually gets SA a new trial and by some unlikely reason he is found not guilty, it does not mean he is innocent. No more than Casey Anthony or O.J. Simpson.

If KZ can prove to me without a shadow of a doubt that someone else committed the TH murder, I'll be the first to apologize for my firm opinion of SA's guilt. But IMO, I will never have to apologize as SA is the monster that took an innocent woman's life and got his nephew involved most likely because he was afraid of his uncle.

 

[Sustained]

It is absolutely a ridiculous concept.

The "pro- corrupt authorities" crowd would have you believe that Zellner is a money hungry fame seeking narcissist. They say this while she is spending 7 figures of her own coin, putting her entire professional reputation on the line, all to help a man get out of prison in a case that they say she can't win.

Let's analyze this for a second:

money hungry yet investing $1,000,000+ , but she will never win the case hmm....
fame seeker doing this only to promote her name, yet she is putting her reputation on the line in a case she cannot win hmm...

Whether KZ wins or loses, how many interviews/book deals will she get for taking on the Avery case ? Kratz/Griesbach wrote books, why not KZ ?
That million as you say could easily turn into really big bucks. And if she is not seeking fame, why is she tweeting all the time to maintain interest in the case ?
Why not just say "My new motion has been filed and you can read it here" ?

 

[Karinna]

It is absolutely a ridiculous concept.

The "pro- corrupt authorities" crowd would have you believe that Zellner is a money hungry fame seeking narcissist. They say this while she is spending 7 figures of her own coin, putting her entire professional reputation on the line, all to help a man get out of prison in a case that they say she can't win.

Let's analyze this for a second:

money hungry yet investing $1,000,000+ , but she will never win the case hmm....
fame seeker doing this only to promote her name, yet she is putting her reputation on the line in a case she cannot win hmm...

Exactly, the whole concept is nonsensical.
KZ has personally backed SA as not being guilty with her own time and money. Everytime she wins an exoneration she gets her client compensation for their wrongful conviction, which means big $$$, the millions in compensation of which as her client's attorney she gets her share for taking their case.
It has been her life work to right the wrongs and she is great at what she does. She is one of the best PC attorney's in the country and well respected in the legal arena. So i'm darn sure she knows what she is doing, and people that want to undermine her don't know what they're talking about IMO.

 

[Karinna]

Whether KZ wins or loses, how many interviews/book deals will she get for taking on the Avery case ? Kratz/Griesbach wrote books, why not KZ ?
That million as you say could easily turn into really big bucks. And if she is not seeking fame, why is she tweeting all the time to maintain interest in the case ?
Why not just say "My new motion has been filed and you can read it here" ?

Because social media is a great platform to keep people informed on what is happening, and there are many people around the world watching this case. Most times we don't know what's going on and how these things work, so it has given us some insight about how these legal proceedings work. You might not personally like what KZ is doing, but plenty of other people are very interested.
Lots of high profile cases are now tried in the media anyway, so nothing new there.

 

[Sustained]

Exactly, the whole concept is nonsensical.
KZ has personally backed SA as not being guilty with her own time and money. Everytime she wins an exoneration she gets her client compensation for their wrongful conviction, which means big $$$, the millions in compensation of which as her client's attorney she gets her share for taking their case.
It has been her life work to right the wrongs and she is great at what she does. She is one of the best PC attorney's in the country and well respected in the legal arena. So i'm darn sure she knows what she is doing, and people that want to undermine her don't know what they're talking about IMO.

No one including me is undermining KZ's success in the past. That does not mean for a second that SA is not guilty. KZ has no crystal ball and was not even involved in the case until MaM1. How do you know SA is not lying to her ? If I were SA and was guilty and was able to get the services of KZ, I'd lie and say I didn't do it either. And let's face it ... if SA had not been wrongfully convicted in 1985, MaM would have never happened and KZ would not be on the TH case.