Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder?

[Karinna]

Exactly. The whole burning TH's body in an outdoor type burning in barrels or fire pit is very suspect with what we know about the case IMO. And from other case studies there is a very distinct smell noted

You are absolutely right. A little burn pit fire isn't going to reduce 30 % of a human body to bone fragments and totally disintegrate the remaining 70% while at the same time leave a few hunks of plastic
intact, not to mention a piece of actual flesh. It is ludicrous to even fathom.

Hmmm... maybe this is why the investigators were coercing everyone to change their statements about the size of the fire when most folks couldn't even remember what day the fire was.

that no one seems to have noticed in the Avery case.

 

[Karinna]

Also from what i have read about a gun shot from a .22 calibre rifle that was fired by SA, the bullet from that type of gun shot into someone's head would not be likely to exit the skull. It's not powerful enough to do that. So how would such a bullet be found on the garage floor with TH's DNA on it?

 

[Boomstick]

Burn Pit/ Burn barrel makes no difference really in an outdoor fire.
It takes at least 1500-2000 degrees to burn a body in any type of burning to get it down to bone.
Some metals take a lot less temperature to melt depending on the type of metal.
Melting temperatures of some common metals and alloys
Melting point is the temperature at which a substance changes from solid to liquid state.

Melting points for some metals and alloys:
Metals - Melting Temperatures

Makes no difference? Of course it does.

A huge fire and a fire in a burn barrel won't burn items to the same degree.

The burnpit fire was long, it was large and it lasted until who knows until what time, as Avery was seen standing out by it after 11pm that night.

It had many tires, furniture, tree limbs, lumber, and brushwood, and who knows what else as fuel.

He burned garbage in the barrel.

 

[Boomstick]

You are absolutely right. A little burn pit fire isn't going to reduce 30 % of a human body to bone fragments and totally disintegrate the remaining 70% while at the same time leave a few hunks of plastic
intact, not to mention a piece of actual flesh. It is ludicrous to even fathom.

Hmmm... maybe this is why the investigators were coercing everyone to change their statements about the size of the fire when most folks couldn't even remember what day the fire was.

Right. Mass inception to make everyone including the defendants, their family, their attorneys and neighbors believe there had been a big(now little) burnpit fire so they could plant bones in the burnpit.

I'm sure the defense wouldn't actually consider having all, or even one say so?

Rather than wild goose chases.

That's what you really think happened?

 

[proudfootz]

Exactly. The whole burning TH's body in an outdoor type burning in barrels or fire pit is very suspect with what we know about the case IMO. And from other case studies there is a very distinct smell noted

that no one seems to have noticed in the Avery case.

I agree - IIRC several people have made statements about being around Steven and the area where these fires were allegedly burning - not one mentioned the unforgettable and powerful stench of a burning human corpse.

Logic dictates the cremation must have occurred somewhere else.

 

[Boomstick]

Also from what i have read about a gun shot from a .22 calibre rifle that was fired by SA, the bullet from that type of gun shot into someone's head would not be likely to exit the skull. It's not powerful enough to do that. So how would such a bullet be found on the garage floor with TH's DNA on it?

Why would that bullet need to have entered her skull? It had her DNA on it. Not bone. It would need to have been flesh or blood, or other bodily fluid or tissue.

That's right. 22 would not produce a large wounds, which she didn't have. Nor a large spatter to clean up.

Oddly enough, they decided to clean a spot on the garage floor that night as well.

 

[Karinna]

Then how do you account for TH's bones that were found in three different places?
(quote)
There had already been some speculation as to why bones were found in at least three places on the property and why the murderer would move them at all, considering they were moved nearby. Also a cremation expert testified that an open fire, such as one in the Avery fire pit, wouldn’t be intense and hot enough to create what state investigators claimed were the remains of Halbach’s bones.

Makes no difference? Of course it does.

A huge fire and a fire in a burn barrel won't burn items to the same degree.

The burnpit fire was long, it was large and it lasted until who knows until what time, as Avery was seen standing out by it after 11pm that night.

It had many tires, furniture, tree limbs, lumber, and brushwood, and who knows what else as fuel.

He burned garbage in the barrel.

 

[Karinna]

Because Brendan Dassey was coerced to state that Teresa Halbach was shot in the head in his coerced confession. And that is the evidence the State presented.

Why would that bullet need to have entered her skull? It had her DNA on it. Not bone. It would need to have been flesh or blood, or other bodily fluid or tissue.

That's right. 22 would not produce a large wounds, which she didn't have. Nor a large spatter to clean up.

Oddly enough, they decided to clean a spot on the garage floor that night as well.

 

[Boomstick]

I agree - IIRC several people have made statements about being around Steven and the area where these fires were allegedly burning - not one mentioned the unforgettable and powerful stench of a burning human corpse.

Logic dictates the cremation must have occurred somewhere else.

Then again, there were multiple tires. And animal bones scattered about as well. Seems human bodies weren't the only things burning there, nor were carcasses being burned a rarity. They were hunters. There were hunting camps nearby as well.

Logic dictates that? Does logic dictate that they would somehow take all the tiny fragments and embed them in the earth of that burnpit and say it was from on the same night Steven Avery denied having a fire. That they would somehow gather up bone fragments from every bone in the body below the neck, some teeth, and clothing and bury them in the debris of the burnpit and burn barrel?

But, had to have done so by no later than 11/5, when the cadaver dog hit indicated that there were remains in that barrel?

 

[Boomstick]

Then how do you account for TH's bones that were found in three different places?
(quote)
There had already been some speculation as to why bones were found in at least three places on the property and why the murderer would move them at all, considering they were moved nearby. Also a cremation expert testified that an open fire, such as one in the Avery fire pit, wouldn’t be intense and hot enough to create what state investigators claimed were the remains of Halbach’s bones.

Her bones weren't found in 3 places. They were found in 2. Avery's burnpit. And one of the Dassey burn barrels nearby.

The quarry was nothing but misdirection. No bones that were found there were ever determined to have even been human at all, or at all related to this case.

 

[Boomstick]

Because Brendan Dassey was coerced to state that Teresa Halbach was shot in the head in his coerced confession. And that is the evidence the State presented.

You do realize that simply saying it was coerced does not mean it was coerced.

Nor does it mean that even though that he WAS led into that part of his confession, that none of what he said was true, nor that that parts where he WASN"T led were false.

Nor does any of that mean that the bullet found entered her skull.

Nor does it explain a clean up spot that reacted with a blood detecting agent in the same area where the bullet was found, or that her bones and teeth were found in the same place, or her personal items, or she disappeared off the face of the earth from that exact area.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but none of it is exculpatory for Steven Avery. There is simply to much that ties Steven Avery to Teresa Halbach's murder at that very place and time.

 

[proudfootz]

What are you quoting from Blaine's affidavit?

That he said B0bby said he saw her walk to Avery's trailer, showered then left?

My mistake.

It was Bryan Dassey who made a sworn affidavit affirming what he told investigators first thing:

On November 6, 2005, Bobby Dassey’s older brother Bryan Dassey told Wisconsin Department of Justice officials that Bobby had told him in the days prior that he saw Halbach leave the Averys’ property.

...

In an affidavit to Avery’s lawyers, Bryan Dassey more recently said: “I distinctly remember Bobby telling me, ‘Steven could not have killed her because I saw her leave the property on October 31, 2005.’”

New suspect? Steven Avery's nephew looked at images of Teresa Halbach and mutilated dead women, lawyers say

I apologize for the confusion.

 

[Boomstick]

My mistake.

It was Bryan Dassey who made a sworn affidavit affirming what he told investigators first thing:

On November 6, 2005, Bobby Dassey’s older brother Bryan Dassey told Wisconsin Department of Justice officials that Bobby had told him in the days prior that he saw Halbach leave the Averys’ property.

...

In an affidavit to Avery’s lawyers, Bryan Dassey more recently said: “I distinctly remember Bobby telling me, ‘Steven could not have killed her because I saw her leave the property on October 31, 2005.’”

New suspect? Steven Avery's nephew looked at images of Teresa Halbach and mutilated dead women, lawyers say

I apologize for the confusion.

All good. I thought that was probably what you meant, but thought it was possible that I had missed something.

Yes, Bryan said that. It's obvious Bryan thought that.

Bobby has been consistent in that as well.

It's he said/he said.

But based upon all the other factors, which I have outlined extensively and repeated, there should really be no real doubt as to what occurred.

 

[proudfootz]

Can't follow the link.

You're talking about a fire that no one questions. Not even the defense, the defendants themselves, nor the numerous attorneys who rep them. It has become fodder for internet conspiracy theories.

No one had connected the fire to the crime until after the remains were found in the firepit.

People do question this so-called bonfire. You overstate your case.

Interestingly, several people who would be expected to have observed it do not mention it.

I'm just demonstrating your claim about 'no one but Steven failed to mention it' is overstated.

 

[proudfootz]

It's definitely subjective. In fact, many disciplines people think are irrefutable would be surprised. The term "reasonable degree of scientific certainty" sounds great and wonderful, until it is explored a little more.

Exactly - to claim 'this fragment definitely came from that weapon' is way overstated.

It's not science.

I am under no illusions that experts can be mistaken. But their testimony carries the weight it does, and should never be taken without the context that the evidence in its totality provides.

There is a reason that there was no ballistics expert refuted the findings.

No one needed to 'refute' Newhouse's subjective assessment. Buting destroyed him in cross examination.

Once more, dubious 'evidence' from the prosecution leads to perfectly reasonable doubt.

 

[Karinna]

(quote)
10 Q. But the burnt bone fragments that you saw from
11 the three sites, again, all were roughly similar
12 in their burning, charring, and calcining?
13 A. That is correct.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...Trial-Transcript-Day-14-2007Mar01.pdf#page=30

Her bones weren't found in 3 places. They were found in 2. Avery's burnpit. And one of the Dassey burn barrels nearby.

The quarry was nothing but misdirection. No bones that were found there were ever determined to have even been human at all, or at all related to this case.

 

[proudfootz]

Or he had no choice.

Were you aware that after the rav-4 was found, he had intended to run away, but was talked out of it by his father because it would make him look guilty?

If he runs away, he has no chance of collecting his lawsuit money.

The forces working against him were investigating a murder he had committed. Yet he lied, over and over. He knew they were "planting" evidence against him, but proceeded to lie? And they so happened to plant the evidence where he lied about? Is that something credible to you?

He didn't leave the salvage yard, the vehicle was discovered when he had gone to his vacation home with his family. Coincidentally, establishing the very circumstances he needed to have privacy to dispose of the vehicle. If the vehicle isn't found, he gets away with it. He was that close to getting away with it.

AFAICT Steven never made a statement that he intended to 'run away'.

The rest is pure speculation.

That's where reasonable doubt kicks in.

 

[Boomstick]

People do question this so-called bonfire. You overstate your case.

Interestingly, several people who would be expected to have observed it do not mention it.

I'm just demonstrating your claim about 'no one but Steven failed to mention it' is overstated.

People on the internet question it. Avery doesn't. Dassey doesn't. In fact, they both swear it happened. Their defense teams don't claim it didn't happen.

I never once said no one but Steven failed to mention it.

 

[Karinna]

Brendan Dassey didn't know the answer and LE fed it to him about the shooting TH in the head.
As far as anything being exculpatory for Avery, who cares? KZ is not out to prove Avery's innocence, that is not her job.
She is in Post conviction phase in SA's case.
All she is going to prove is Denny/Brady violations,

You do realize that simply saying it was coerced does not mean it was coerced.

Nor does it mean that even though that he WAS led into that part of his confession, that none of what he said was true, nor that that parts where he WASN"T led were false.

Nor does any of that mean that the bullet found entered her skull.

Nor does it explain a clean up spot that reacted with a blood detecting agent in the same area where the bullet was found, or that her bones and teeth were found in the same place, or her personal items, or she disappeared off the face of the earth from that exact area.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but none of it is exculpatory for Steven Avery. There is simply to much that ties Steven Avery to Teresa Halbach's murder at that very place and time.

and that Avery didn't get a fair Trial/ ineffective assistance of counsel.

 

[Boomstick]

Exactly - to claim 'this fragment definitely came from that weapon' is way overstated.

It's not science.



No one needed to 'refute' Newhouse's subjective assessment. Buting destroyed him in cross examination.

Once more, dubious 'evidence' from the prosecution leads to perfectly reasonable doubt.

Destroyed him by claiming the document was signed by another person? Surely you must be kidding.

None of his testimony was contradicted or refuted. All we got was more of the same when it comes to Avery's defense(s). Misdirection.

Still not exculpatory. These were desperate attempts to have put any sort of doubt into the jury's mind.

Again, the defense didn't try to refute the finding with their own ballistics experts, still. Why do you think that might be?