Stun Gun

[BBB167893]

1. There is no doubt that the media is a strong force in swaying public opinion. A group of jurors may be given a host of important evidence only to have it ignored because in the back of the juror's minds what they heard on tv or read through the newspaper first becomes paramount to any evidence later presented in court.

You're probably right, leighl. That's why some juries are kept isolated.

2. PR was a journalism major and most likely was aware of the tremendous psychological impact, power, and influence the media has public opinion, i.e., the opinion of any potential jury.

3. Both PR and JR began early on to try and influence/create a reasonable doubt of their guilt through various media outlets, again to influence any potential jury in case either of them were arrested or the finger was pointed at Burke.

Damn skippy.

B) Don't exhume JB's body. The R's know there was no stun gun used so they don't want the stun gun theory to be questioned; not exhuming JB's body allows a sense of doubt among the general public (and any potential jury pool) to continue to circulate (and prevented any other telling evidence to be potentially discovered upon re-examination of JB's body by the ME).

5. J&PR stated they did not want JB's body to be exhumed because the request was made shortly after JB had been laid to rest. This is completely understandable, however, if this was the case, why not allow the body to be exhumed at a later date? What parent (or indeed any human being) would want to live with the slightest doubt of whether they were involved in their daughter's brutal murder when they have a chance to potentially exonerate themselves once and for all. The answer is clear, J&PR knew there was no stun gun involved, they knew not exhuming JB's body would always allow room for doubt in case the matter ever went to trial.

I'm inclined to agree.

 

[Makisupa]

Does anyone have any theories about what caused these marks? Everyone here seems convinced that it wasn't a stun gun, so what caused the marks?

fwiw, I'm just curious and open to hear both sides of the argument

 

[leighl]

"Does anyone have any theories about what caused these marks? Everyone here seems convinced that it wasn't a stun gun, so what caused the marks?"

There are pages of insightful information and theories presented on FFJ. Before coming to any conclusion(s), it would be prudent to read all of the posts there. One particular theory suggests the abrasions on JB's back and face are impressions made by Patsy's rings as she held JB close upon discovery of her lifeless body (perhaps after the head wound, before the strangulation/staging). Patsy was often seen in interviews/photos wearing her rings faced towards the palms. If you imagine Patsy cradling JB, you can picture how these impressions might have been made on JB's back and face. This is just one theory, there are potentially any number of items JB might have been resting against as she was held, carried, layed in various postions/locations during the supposed staging.

 

[Makisupa]

"Does anyone have any theories about what caused these marks? Everyone here seems convinced that it wasn't a stun gun, so what caused the marks?"

There are pages of insightful information and theories presented on FFJ. Before coming to any conclusion(s), it would be prudent to read all of the posts there. One particular theory suggests the abrasions on JB's back and face are impressions made by Patsy's rings as she held JB close upon discovery of her lifeless body (perhaps after the head wound, before the strangulation/staging). Patsy was often seen in interviews/photos wearing her rings faced towards the palms. If you imagine Patsy cradling JB, you can picture how these impressions might have been made on JB's back and face. This is just one theory, there are potentially any number of items JB might have been resting against as she was held, carried, layed in various postions/locations during the supposed staging.

ok thanks, ideally I'd like to read up on it at a more neutral site if you know of any. everyone on there is in agreement so you don't really get to hear both sides. I wouldn't go to a site with all ramsey supporters either, heavily biased sites aren't good starting points on formulating you own ideas, opinions, etc.

 

[BBB167893]

Makisupa, if you go to www.jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com you can find a lot of stuff for and against a stun gun.

 

[jubie]

I also find it odd that he said the reason he wanted JonBenet not to be exhumed was so she could rest in peace yet he wouldn't care about Burke living a life being questioned as the murderer? :waitasec:

 

[Makisupa]

Makisupa, if you go to www.jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com you can find a lot of stuff for and against a stun gun.

thanks, so far I'm inclined to believe it was a stun gun. No offense to the posters here who have spent so much time trying to discredit the theory, It's just my opinion. This is also probably the worst place to discuss this anyways, since most of the anti stun gun points are from 'internet posters' right here at this site. :doh: Maybe someone has something more compelling than Patsy's rings? I just have a really hard time buying that, but am very open to other ideas. I see where the doubt comes in about the use of the gun, but have yet to see a more plausible alternative.

 

[rashomon]

[UKGuy]The Stun Gun is another Lou Smit fairy-tale.

I always imagined him and John meeting at his house, exchanging pleasantries, then getting down to business.


Lou Smit: John how are we going to move forward on this case?

John Ramsey: Well Lou there is a killer out there, we need help in finding him.
Lou Smit: John you reckon we should pray to the Good Lord, and ask for guidance?

John Ramsey: Sure Lou thats a great idea.

Hands clasped, heads bowed.

Lou Smit: I'm hearing a voice that says Intruder.

John Ramsey: Yeah Lou thats what I've always felt.
Lou Smit: A Crazy, someone with no Christian principles.

John Ramsey: Sure Lou, a sick guy with no morals, definitely not a churchgoer.

Lou Smit: I sense this is a deviant, someone who will not be among those blessed with salvation when Christ walks with us again.

John Ramsey: I agree Lou, a pervert type, he must have some kind of fetish to use ropes, and do the stuff he did.

Lou Smit: I have a feeling he came armed, maybe with a gun as well as a knife etc.

John Ramsey: Of course Lou, how about a stun gun, do those crazy types go for stun guns, I remember reading about them in some catalog?

Lou Smit: Sure John, could be, maybe thats what those marks are on JonBenet's body?

John Ramsey: Praise The Lord Lou, it kinda fits, a crazy type with a stun gun, How you reckon he got in?

Lou Smit: Maybe he snuck in, while you were out at the White's.

John Ramsey: Lou you are a genius, you reckon we might do a Press Release on this, someone out there might know a psycho who has a thing about ropes?

Lou Smit: Sure John, just give me some time to fill out this Intruder theory a little.

John Ramsey: OK Lou, I feel something working through us, must be the power of prayer, you are blessed with grace.
Lou Smit: I read from the Good Book each day, thats all. To finish off, lets offer up a prayer for JonBenet?

John Ramsey: Thats so thoughtful Lou, lets do that ...

Dear Lord ...

UKGuy - Thanks for a good laugh - you hit he nail on the head with that one. Brilliant post!

 

[BBB167893]

"thanks, so far I'm inclined to believe it was a stun gun. No offense to the posters here who have spent so much time trying to discredit the theory, It's just my opinion."

Well, makisupa, that site, excellent though it is, doesn't give you the whole story. I can fill in the gaps for you.

1) Lou Smit decided, with no evidence, that a stun gun was used, then shopped around until he found ONE pathologist who agreed with him. It wasn't like the coroner who examined JB's body had come to Smit and said, "Lou, I think this was involved, but the police won't listen to me. Maybe you will." Wasn't like that. And Doberson, the one who agreed, has some serious credibility issues.

I can prove it. Robert Stratbucker, the pathologist who is probably THE authority on stun guns not only said that the marks weren't caused by a stun gun, but he said his about Smit:

I told him it wouldn't render a person unconscious, but it wasn't what he wanted to hear. I guess that's why I never heard back from him.

Not only that, but the coroner put in the autopsy report that these marks were abrasions, not burns.

"This is also probably the worst place to discuss this anyways, since most of the anti stun gun points are from 'internet posters' right here at this site."

This follows up nicely, because the site I directed you to doesn't contain the various pathologists' opinions.

Cyril Wecht said that this was not a stun gun and that he had talked it over with, among others, Henry Lee.

Also, Werner Spitz, pathologist, said this:

A stun gun mark is an electrical burn. These were not burns.

"Maybe someone has something more compelling than Patsy's rings? I just have a really hard time buying that, but am very open to other ideas. I see where the doubt comes in about the use of the gun, but have yet to see a more plausible alternative."

Spitz thinks they might have been caused from buttons or snaps on a piece of clothing.

If you look closely, you can see a boat-shaped mark inside them.

PLUS, I happen to own one of these little babies. Never seen it leave marks like the ones on JB!

 

[leighl]

1. Would investigators need R's permission to exhume JB's body in order to look for further clues, re-examine the abrasions? If not, then why hasn't this been done?

2. Would the body be too degraded to examine it conclusively, especially with regard to the abrasions?

3. Do you think there might be any clues in the items buried with JB? -- e.g., the scarf always seemed a bit odd to me.

4. Any ideas on what happened to all the stuff Pam removed from the house? If she threw these things out slowly over the years, I am guessing no one would have noticed (right?). I wonder why investigators never looked into these items further, maybe they just assumed any incriminating evidence would have been destroyed.

5. What about all the rest of JB's stuff? I wonder if JR will hold on to these things and if there are any clues among these things?

 

[BBB167893]

1. Would investigators need R's permission to exhume JB's body in order to look for further clues, re-examine the abrasions? If not, then why hasn't this been done?

To hear ST tell it, they had the excavating machines at the cemetary when Beckner called it off. And the reason he gave was, they didn't need the media reports on that one.

2. Would the body be too degraded to examine it conclusively, especially with regard to the abrasions?

You never know. But I'd say it's likely.

3. Do you think there might be any clues in the items buried with JB? -- e.g., the scarf always seemed a bit odd to me.

Wouldn't doubt it.

4. Any ideas on what happened to all the stuff Pam removed from the house? If she threw these things out slowly over the years, I am guessing no one would have noticed (right?). I wonder why investigators never looked into these items further, maybe they just assumed any incriminating evidence would have been destroyed.

Could be anywhere.

5. What about all the rest of JB's stuff? I wonder if JR will hold on to these things and if there are any clues among these things?

Good question.

 

[coralieUK]

Hi, just thought i'd say that Im coralie and hi all , im from UK...and have followed this sad story quite a lot.
we had a tv progrogramm on here where they showed big burly men testing these stuns..on each other...one huge 6ft 5" man 16 stone muscle , keeled over and the conclusion was that they should be banned as they can and do actually kill!! when they showed this man being given the stun, gees he was shot back about 2 feet..and was helpless for at least 15 minutes....
regards
Coralie

 

[Eagle1]

Hi, just thought i'd say that Im coralie and hi all , im from UK...and have followed this sad story quite a lot.
we had a tv progrogramm on here where they showed big burly men testing these stuns..on each other...one huge 6ft 5" man 16 stone muscle , keeled over and the conclusion was that they should be banned as they can and do actually kill!! when they showed this man being given the stun, gees he was shot back about 2 feet..and was helpless for at least 15 minutes....regards
Coralie

Wow, that's quite a different story, and verifies just what I suspected, that it'd have a much greater effect on a child than on a big grownup man.

Another big man, who'd been dead and buried for 6 mo., was exumed for some reason and still had BLACK stun gun marks on him. I forget what killed him.

This also raises another question, could the killer be someone in LE? Because
(1) There was a snapshot of an open dictionary which hadn't been at the crime scene when it was processed, which I believe ST said fell out when he picked up the evidence envelope.
(2) Killers are often cop wannabe's.
(3) Christmas holidays aren't enough of an excuse for lack of backup for Arndt, and we need to know something about French's background, imo, because if I were in his position, that door would have been a red alert.
It seems nobody really wanted to look in there, for some reason. There may be others we don't know about who should have looked in there. (And I'm not denying the parents may have been somehow involved for some reason, or that one of them may have been also abusing her, but these other things indicating other people involved are just as glaring!!!)
(4) WHO first noted that Patsy had been wearing the same clothes the night before? They didn't notice that it would be illogical for her to still be wearing the same things if she knew fibers from her jacket or a similar one had been used in the staging.

In another thread I reported seeing fibers being scraped off from a hanging garment on TV. I forgot to notice if they had them landing on something like fly paper or what. Sorry. They were using a spatula!

(5) Out-of-town hate-propagandists against the R's, way before the crime, have to be acknowledged as proof that it was all probably already being planned for when that child should finally rebel against the abuse and make waves. I strongly believe the attempted 911 call the night she was crying was the trigger. Bad people had likely known the day was coming. Don't know if it would have happened even if she hadn't been made so high-profile.
(6) Are there maybe some "fix" incentives for officials besides money? Some taboo untouchables?

This is a bit of a stretch but do we all remember Nixon days Watergating, now called something about national security? So it's technologically possible the note writers really were monitoring everyone, right? And because the note said "two gentlemen", there had to be two boot prints, probably by holding them on a pole, unless they were really near the edge and nobody's shown us any picture of that, that I know of. People hinted a lot at the time of Watergate that there was more. Will we ever know? Remember, I have no favorite theory, just lots of 'em, and we may need to keep reaching farther and farther.

 

[BBB167893]

Wow, that's quite a different story, and verifies just what I suspected, that it'd have a much greater effect on a child than on a big grownup man.

I never said it wouldn't have an effect. When I got hit, I thought I was going to die. But it doesn't knock you out.

Another big man, who'd been dead and buried for 6 mo., was exumed for some reason and still had BLACK stun gun marks on him. I forget what killed him.

I think that was Mr. Boggs, and if you've ever seen the photos of his marks when he was newly dead, you'll see those marks were just like mine: raised, red with whitish-gray centers.

 

[justice2]

I don't know about yall but the media here has done several, several stories where the reporter gets shot with the stun gun to demonstrate what it does. You might check with your local tv stations and see if anyone there has experience. See what there marks look like, etc.


I think the problem with stun guns is that if there is something physically wrong with a person, the stun gun can bring that out. But it can't kill a healthy person, the amperage is just too low.

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/stun-gun.htm

 

[BBB167893]

Assuming it isn't defective.

 

[Eagle1]

I never said it wouldn't have an effect. When I got hit, I thought I was going to die. But it doesn't knock you out.....
I think that was Mr. Boggs, and if you've ever seen the photos of his marks when he was newly dead, you'll see those marks were just like mine: raised, red with whitish-gray centers.

I'm not especially interested in the stun gun controversy but must say the obvious, that maybe JonBenet's marks were also raised, red with whitish-gray centers, when she was newly dead.

It was several hours before she was "found", an odor already starting. The marks had turned black like Mr. Boggs'.

I want to emphasize that obviously a child or a person with an illness would be more affected by stunning than a healthy adult man.

 

[BBB167893]

JB hadn't been moldering in the ground for six months. Not only that, but, were it not for my faulty memory, I would recall that those Boggs pictures were taken a few days after his death, and they were still red, not black.

 

[Eagle1]

Sometimes I'm sure, and this is one of those times. When I saw Boggs' picture I remember specifically that he'd been dead 6 mo., was impressed by that, but of course I don't remember where I saw the picture. He was a black man, and I don't remember if the picture was in color, don't think so, but the marks looked black. They could only be red when blood was still in there, right?

 

[BBB167893]

Yes, the later pictures were blackened.

Red needs blood, yes, because the redness is indicative of healing.