Stungun marks

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Toth said:
There was nothing accidental about this crime. Nothing at all.
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When a child of non-culpable age murders a sibling, it's considered an "accident" even though he committed the act on purpose.


IMO/JMO
 
BlueCrab said:
Good question Nehemiah. As you know, there's dozens of different directions a theory can go and still be based on the evidence as we know it, or perceive it. Here's one way I can read the evidence presuming a stun gun and erotic asphyxiation was used on JonBenet:

IMO, because of the marks on JonBenet, a stun gun was used on her. This makes the crime sadistic, featuring torture.

Because of the design of the device wrapped around JonBenet's neck and the autopsy's description of the relative gentleness of the asphyxiation I also believe erotic asphyxiation was used on JonBenet, and is what killed her, perhaps accidentally. Even John Ramsey believes the perp used EA.

Usually EA is consensual, but the combination of the two (stun gun and EA) makes it a sadistic non-consensual sex crime.

Normally an intruder would be considered the perp in this kind of vicious crime, but the Ramseys are lying and obfuscating and engaged in an obvious coverup. They wouldn't do this to protect an adult intruder. Since one parent also wouldn't do this to protect the other parent, I think they're protecting Burke, and perhaps another boy.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab
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BlueCrab,

The only problem I have with your theory is this: In order for a little nine-year-old boy to be interested in, let alone involved in acts like the ones you describe, there has to be something terribly, terribly wrong with the child.

Usually, a child who shows such early interest in sexual activity is either 1) copying older friends or siblings and has no real interest. 2) Has been the victim of sexual abuse himself. 3) Has a serious mental disability and is being guided by an older child.

Personally, I don't see any evidence, whatsoever, that either Burke or Jonbenet were sexually abused by anyone.

If Burke was just copying the actions of an older child, then when it got a little too intense and they were using his baby sister for the act, I think he would have chickened out. Or, he would have confided in someone, somewhere down the line.

Since I don't think JBR was abused prior to this night, I don't think Burke and his friends could have been hurting her previously. One or both of the children would have exhibited signs of abuse in some way. A little boy Burke's age would not have been able to handle the pressure of his ongoing secret.

And remember, to normal, well adjusted children, incest is a 'no-no' and it is disgusting in their eyes as well as in ours (remember the 'he's got cooties!' protest when we were even asked to sit by one of our siblings for more than five minutes when we were nine or ten-years-old??)

Now, if Burke was somehow mentally disabled and another older child was leading him astray, I still think he would have shown signs of distress. From everything I have read, it seems like Burke was/is of normal intelligence and not limited in his reasoning skills in the least (well, except for the 'Rolex' thing, lol...)

I just don't see a normal nine-year-old boy doing anything like what you describe to his little sister. If he was mentally ill, then we need to find out why he was disturbed. Was he, in fact, being abused too? I sincerely don't think so.

Now, it might be possible, maybe even probable that Burke killed JBR during normal play ('Cops and Robbers,' or 'Batman and Catwoman'...). Maybe, he 'captured' JBR as the 'bad guy' and accidentally inflicted fatal injuries to her. I can even see Burke getting extremely angry with his pesky little sister during a rough game and pulling a bit too hard. That is entirely possible, in my opinion.

The only snag I run into here is that it was Christmas night. The kids must have been exhausted. I can't really see them running through the basement playing a shoot-em-up game at midnight, but I could be wrong.

And, with all I know about kids, in my heart, I don't think little nine-year-old Burke was thinking about "erotic" anything involving his sister that night. After all, it was the night after the morning he woke up and discovered Santa Claus had visited. In many ways, Burke was little more than a baby himself.
 
WolfmarsGirl said:
BlueCrab,

The only problem I have with your theory is this: In order for a little nine-year-old boy to be interested in, let alone involved in acts like the ones you describe, there has to be something terribly, terribly wrong with the child.

Usually, a child who shows such early interest in sexual activity is either 1) copying older friends or siblings and has no real interest. 2) Has been the victim of sexual abuse himself. 3) Has a serious mental disability and is being guided by an older child.

Personally, I don't see any evidence, whatsoever, that either Burke or Jonbenet were sexually abused by anyone.

If Burke was just copying the actions of an older child, then when it got a little too intense and they were using his baby sister for the act, I think he would have chickened out. Or, he would have confided in someone, somewhere down the line.

Since I don't think JBR was abused prior to this night, I don't think Burke and his friends could have been hurting her previously. One or both of the children would have exhibited signs of abuse in some way. A little boy Burke's age would not have been able to handle the pressure of his ongoing secret.

And remember, to normal, well adjusted children, incest is a 'no-no' and it is disgusting in their eyes as well as in ours (remember the 'he's got cooties!' protest when we were even asked to sit by one of our siblings for more than five minutes when we were nine or ten-years-old??)

Now, if Burke was somehow mentally disabled and another older child was leading him astray, I still think he would have shown signs of distress. From everything I have read, it seems like Burke was/is of normal intelligence and not limited in his reasoning skills in the least (well, except for the 'Rolex' thing, lol...)

I just don't see a normal nine-year-old boy doing anything like what you describe to his little sister. If he was mentally ill, then we need to find out why he was disturbed. Was he, in fact, being abused too? I sincerely don't think so.

Now, it might be possible, maybe even probable that Burke killed JBR during normal play ('Cops and Robbers,' or 'Batman and Catwoman'...). Maybe, he 'captured' JBR as the 'bad guy' and accidentally inflicted fatal injuries to her. I can even see Burke getting extremely angry with his pesky little sister during a rough game and pulling a bit too hard. That is entirely possible, in my opinion.

The only snag I run into here is that it was Christmas night. The kids must have been exhausted. I can't really see them running through the basement playing a shoot-em-up game at midnight, but I could be wrong.

And, with all I know about kids, in my heart, I don't think little nine-year-old Burke was thinking about "erotic" anything involving his sister that night. After all, it was the night after the morning he woke up and discovered Santa Claus had visited. In many ways, Burke was little more than a baby himself.
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WolfmarsGirl,

Thank you for your well-thought-out response. You bring up several things that should be discussed in further detail, except this thread is getting kind of long. I'll touch on them lightly:

First of all, I'll have to disagree about Burke being little more than a baby. 10-year-old boys are anything but babies -- they are physically powerful, and they are cunning. In third world countries 10-year-old males are armed with automatic weapons and used in combat as fearless fighters.

Second, the evidence is convincing that JonBenet had injuries to the vagina consistent with chronic sexual abuse, abuse that likely could only have been inflicted by a family member -- someone who had everyday access to JonBenet.

Third, there is some unofficial evidence of Burke having been sexually molested as a small child by a non-family member, but someone who had daily access to him. The evidence is skimpy but in writing by a witness. I prefer to not mention any names, but the cops are aware of it.

Finally, there is indeed a likelihood that an older person, probably a male teen, was involved in the killing of JonBenet. For instance, neither John nor Patsy wrote the ransom note; yet the juvenile-sounding text is a little beyond the ability of a 10-year-old to be the author. And someone had to construct the EA device -- a device usually earmarked for use by teens and males in their twenties.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab
 
I know I've mentioned this before, but I'll mention it briefly again. Little boys are weird. When two of my neighbors' sons were involved in what we thought was rather sophisticated sex play at the ages of 4 and 5, we asked neighborhoold husbands about their own experiences as children. About half had engaged in all kinds of sexual experimentation, mostly with other boys, but some with girls including their sisters. Object penetetration was not uncommon, but was done in a gentle manner. Most had not been molested and did not know where the ideas came from. They described it as curiosity and dominance games.
 
Maxi said:
I know I've mentioned this before, but I'll mention it briefly again. Little boys are weird. When two of my neighbors' sons were involved in what we thought was rather sophisticated sex play at the ages of 4 and 5, we asked neighborhoold husbands about their own experiences as children. About half had engaged in all kinds of sexual experimentation, mostly with other boys, but some with girls including their sisters. Object penetetration was not uncommon, but was done in a gentle manner. Most had not been molested and did not know where the ideas came from. They described it as curiosity and dominance games.
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Maxi, in my post above I wasn't alluding to a reported "messing around" incident between Burke and a neighbor boy in the back yard. I agree that kind of stuff probably happens to most preteen kids as they explore and experiment. The series of incidents I was referring to, which were on the bizarre side, and which are only loosely documented, allegedly involved Burke when he was very young and an adult over a long period of time.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab
 
Oh, I know the story you meant, BC. I was just throwing in my two cent opinion on the possibility of Burke's involvement in JBR's death. He could have been involved whether or not the story you referred to is true.
 
BlueCrab said:
WolfmarsGirl,

Thank you for your well-thought-out response. You bring up several things that should be discussed in further detail, except this thread is getting kind of long. I'll touch on them lightly:

First of all, I'll have to disagree about Burke being little more than a baby. 10-year-old boys are anything but babies -- they are physically powerful, and they are cunning. In third world countries 10-year-old males are armed with automatic weapons and used in combat as fearless fighters.

Second, the evidence is convincing that JonBenet had injuries to the vagina consistent with chronic sexual abuse, abuse that likely could only have been inflicted by a family member -- someone who had everyday access to JonBenet.

Third, there is some unofficial evidence of Burke having been sexually molested as a small child by a non-family member, but someone who had daily access to him. The evidence is skimpy but in writing by a witness. I prefer to not mention any names, but the cops are aware of it.

Finally, there is indeed a likelihood that an older person, probably a male teen, was involved in the killing of JonBenet. For instance, neither John nor Patsy wrote the ransom note; yet the juvenile-sounding text is a little beyond the ability of a 10-year-old to be the author. And someone had to construct the EA device -- a device usually earmarked for use by teens and males in their twenties.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab
Click to expand...

Thanks BC. You are always so cordial, even when I am being so contrary.

I still have a couple of problems though.

I don't see Burke being able to have enough alone time with Jonbenet to do anything so un-brotherly to her.

I know Patsy was a doting mom. She most likely knew where JBR was at all times. No matter what I think happened in the end, I still think she was a good, loving mom before JBR's death. So, when could all of this happen?

I too have known many little boys in Burke's age group. I taught preschool for years and I was also a daycare provider to school-aged children. From what I saw back then, only the children that had serious family issues were involved in any unusual behavior (and I don't mean sexual behavior, specifically.)

I also took many, many hours of child psych in college way-back-when... I admit though, classroom studies do not usually match behavior in the real world.

Currently, my almost-six-year-old daughter has several friends who are boys and are 8,9 or 10-years old. I have never seen these children display any interest in any sexual subject matter, unless they keep it carefully concealed.

They just want to play video games and ride scooters with the other kids. I mean, they fight with my daughter (she even tackled one of them and made him cry last summer), have races, lemonade stands, call each other names, climb trees. They play with the girls in much the same way they play with the boys. To me, they are all such babies.

To give you an example, one night last summer, my daughter was going to have a slumber party with two of her six-year-old friends. These twin neighbor-girls have a brother who was nine at the time...

Well, this little boy actually pouted and got teary-eyed when his mom had to tell him he could not be included at this particular get-together.

Of course, the girls all rudely laughed at him and made him as embarrassed as possible (with my wolfkid as the pack leader). It was horrible! And I felt horrible for the kid.

The poor little guy honestly didn't understand why his sisters should be allowed the special night at Wolfkid's house without him. After all, he is her friend too...

The point is that all of the boys I know, or have known, in that age-group are just about as baby-like as a child can get. They all seem so innocent to me.

I just can't see normal kids (like neighbor boy) being involved in these types of acts. But, you could very well be correct. Maybe, I am just taking it from a mom's perspective. I think we are usually biased by that motherly instinct to trust and protect all tiny humans. Perhaps.

Now I am glad the boy wasn't allowed to come to the slumber party :doh:

I know this thread is getting too jumbled, but I just wanted to add: I do think Patsy wrote the note. What you are seeing as the writings of a teenaged-boy, I see as the writings of a naiive housewife.

I mean, if you were to ask me to write a ransom note and use real, hard-core 'street language,' I would be baffled! In fact, if I called my 15-year-old niece, she would certainly come up with some far more convincing stuff than I would! I have no doubts about that whatsoever.
 
I'm fairly new to this board, so please excuse my ignorance of all the facts. Wouldn't the murderer be strangling his own self? I don't understand why some nut would be doing that to her since she wouldn't have even known what was going on, much less kept her arms up during the act. If Burke was in on it, then he had been sexually molested or he wouldn't know anything about that sort of thing. I'm almost 50, and know next to nothing, thank God. This whole case is really scary and so strange.
 
Stun gun use seems almost a curiosity: very little, mainly an experimentation to see how much fun it was.
If he didn't know how she would react to the stun gun, he may not have known much about how to tie her either, thus the loosely bound arms.
This might point towards an inexperienced youth from the neighborhood, but the note suggests an older man.
 
"This might point towards an inexperienced youth from the neighborhood, but the note suggests an older man."

LOL, you have just reinforced Bluecrab's theory and many others who agree that the "youth" doesn't have to be from the neighborhood, could have been right from the house, with the "older" man/woman being one of his parents.

I think you're finally on to something Toth :)
 
Why did a couple of the suspects own stunguns?
Mike Mcelroy had one,Hellgoth had one,why if these were "normal" citizens would they
have these things?
Were stun guns involved in other crimes in 1996,were they carried by rapists,by burglars,...just curious.
IMO JMO
 
Thomas Aquinas (Gary Oliva) owned stun guns too.

Absent from the list of stun gun owners are: John, Patsy and Burke. They had no ownership of or interest in owning stun guns.
 
Toth said:
Absent from the list of stun gun owners are: John, Patsy and Burke. They had no ownership of or interest in owning stun guns.
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Me either and one can plainly see that because I HAVE NO STUN GUN VIDEOS IN MY HOUSE!

Not that it matters because no stun gun was used during this crime. Take my word for it Toth; I know that for sure.
 
txsvicki said:
I'm fairly new to this board, so please excuse my ignorance of all the facts. Wouldn't the murderer be strangling his own self? I don't understand why some nut would be doing that to her since she wouldn't have even known what was going on, much less kept her arms up during the act. If Burke was in on it, then he had been sexually molested or he wouldn't know anything about that sort of thing. I'm almost 50, and know next to nothing, thank God. This whole case is really scary and so strange.
Click to expand...

"Autoerotic" asphyxia is the term for someone who strangles him or herself for pleasure. "Erotic" asphyxia can go either way. Some people do swing both ways. There is a high that comes from the lack of oxygen, or it can be part of a bondage game. Kids usually learn it from one another, although some have been known to discover it on their own. Don't ask me how!

Some rapists and lust killers strangle their victims because they are sadists. I know from personal experience that there is no scarier feeling than slowly losing consciousness from someone strangling you. Other killers are just freaks whose fetish is the strangling itself rather than the victim's suffering. Then there are killers who just finish off their victim with a quick strangulation when they are done with her. It's a quiet way to kill someone, and you can see that they are really dead.
 
Thanks, LP. How stupid can people get? Both the part-time jailer and the inmate who apparently allowed him to zap him sound like morons.

Too bad there weren't any pix of the stun gun mark.

_____
IMO
 
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