Summary of Damien's Mental Health History

[Dysthymia]

Let's not be naive here. The length of hair was brought into the conversation by UdbdCrazy2, not by any supporter. Let's take a look at his post...



Udbcrazy2 then proceeds to post photographs of Damien before he was arrested. As you can all see from the photographs, Damien's hair was longer than Terry Hobbs. And so was Jason's and Jessie's wasn't any longer.

So can any of you please explain why Hobbs' hair was found there, while no hairs at all belonging to Jason, Damien or Jessie were ever found?

TIA.

Could it be that IF the hair belongs to Mr. Hobbs, it is because one of the victims was his stepson and lived with him and the other two victims played with his stepson? I believe that his hair could have come to be the one in the ligature of one of the little boys and it does not make much sense that the killers would have matched each shoe string up with each boy.

Being stripped naked and placed underwater removed any other incriminating evidence from the bodies of the victims.

 

[Cappuccino]

The hair that is consistent with the mtDNA of Terry Hobbs, could certainly have been there due to secondary transfer off his stepson's shoe lace. If so, it must have been put on that shoe lace earlier on that day before the murders happened.

Being stripped naked and placed underwater removed any other incriminating evidence from the bodies of the victims.
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Really? It didn't remove the Hobbs hair. It also didn't remove the plethora of DNA from that crime scene belonging to Stevie, Christopher and Michael. That ditchwater was very selective in its removal of evidence, given the high amount of DNA that managed to survive the immersion. How does water manage to wash away all physical evidence of all three defendants, and simultaneoulsy leave behind DNA belonging to all three victims?

And how did the Hobbs' hair survive? That hair, if it was innocently transferred, was not only immersed under water, it was also unwound through the shoe lace holes of a childs' sneaker, used to tie a child up, and then immersed in water. How was that hair still there, when none of Damien, Jason or Jessie's DNA was found?

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I don't consider their hair being long at all even for the early 1990's. Many people had long hair back then because it was fashionable and even longer hair was seen on the metal music scene. Damien looks more like a punk rocker than a metal rocker.

Yes, there are many metal musicians whose hair is longer than Damien's. However, his hair is longer than Terry Hobbs' hair. Even if you don't consider his hair to be long, I believe that most people in West Memphis/Marion in 1993 would. However, his hair, no matter its length, was not found at the discovery ditch. A hair that is most likely Terry Hobbs', even by his own admission, was found there. Also, a hair of Hobbs' friend, David Jacoby, was there, too.

And I don't think that their hair or their music made them murder those children.

You're right. Nothing made them murder those little boys because they didn't murder those little boys. As to what made the real killer murder those little boys, that's a whole different topic.

The state of Arkansas let them out because they served their time. If you read about any other cases, that does happen. Life sometimes does not mean life and many dp cases are changed over to life. WMGuilty are not the only cases I've read about or are interested in.

This is the first time in history that a man walked off of Death Row in Arkansas. Remember, they were originally sentenced to either death, LWOP or life plus forty. They did not serve their original sentences. The Alford plea changed both the charges and the sentences. The sentences were amended to time served because they couldn't UNserve time. Judge Laser, IMO, knew that they were innocent. So, he was more than happy to amend the original sentences. I believe that he would rather have totally exonerated them. However, as I understand Arkansas law, that was not one of his options. He did the best he could.

 

[Dysthymia]

T It also didn't remove the plethora of DNA from that crime scene belonging to Stevie, Christopher and Michael. That ditchwater was very selective in its removal of evidence, given the high amount of DNA that managed to survive the immersion. How does water manage to wash away all physical evidence of all three defendants, and simultaneoulsy leave behind DNA belonging to all three victims?

And how did the Hobbs' hair survive? That hair, if it was innocently transferred, was not only immersed under water, it was also unwound through the shoe lace holes of a childs' sneaker, used to tie a child up, and then immersed in water. How was that hair still there, when none of Damien, Jason or Jessie's DNA was found?

I am not sure that there was a plethora of DNA on the bodies? The children's own DNA would be on them, in them, of course.

IF the hair is Mr. Hobbs' I thought it survived being under water because it was bound up in the ligatures of the child.

With the children submerged, naked in ditch water, there was probably a lot of DNA from the killers that was forever washed away.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

Let's not be naive here. The length of hair was brought into the conversation by UdbdCrazy2, not by any supporter. Let's take a look at his post...



Udbcrazy2 then proceeds to post photographs of Damien before he was arrested. As you can all see from the photographs, Damien's hair was longer than Terry Hobbs. And so was Jason's and Jessie's wasn't any longer.

So can any of you please explain why Hobbs' hair was found there, while no hairs at all belonging to Jason, Damien or Jessie were ever found?

TIA.

Yeah, I posted the links to the photos because people who have not done any research really don't understand that he did not have long hair. The music didn't make them do it either or heavy metal music didn't make them do it. It happened because Echols is a very sick man who was homicidal even before he committed the murders. The other two just went along with him. Look at Charles Manson, he had followers willing to do whatever he told them to do.

Any DNA would have been washed away from the bodies because they were all three submerged in water for hours.

The Hobbs hair was in the ligature and Hobbs lived with one of the victims.

Why hasn't Echols came forth with that evidence he promised to show everyone at the hearing that never happened?

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Yeah, I posted the links to the photos because people who have not done any research really don't understand that he did not have long hair. The music didn't make them do it either or heavy metal music didn't make them do it. It happened because Echols is a very sick man who was homicidal even before he committed the murders. The other two just went along with him. Look at Charles Manson, he had followers willing to do whatever he told them to do.

Whether or not Damien had long hair is an opinion. I would call his hair long. Most people of a conservative nature, like the residents of West Memphis, Arkansas, in 1993, would call Damien's hair long. As I said before, the music didn't make them do it because they didn't do it. It happened because Terry Hobbs got angry with his step son and, when disciplining him, went too far. The other two boys were witnesses and had to be eliminated. As to Charles Manson, he didn't kill anyone; he enticed others to do his dirty work. This case is nothing like the Tate-LoBianca murders.

Any DNA would have been washed away from the bodies because they were all three submerged in water for hours.

Chris' shoe that was submerged for hours had DNA recovered from it in the last round of testing. So, submersion doesn't wash away all traces of DNA.

The Hobbs hair was in the ligature and Hobbs lived with one of the victims.

But is wasn't in the ligature of the victim with whom Hobbs lived. It was under the ligature of a different victim. And David Jacoby didn't live with any of the victims. How did his hair get there?

Why hasn't Echols came forth with that evidence he promised to show everyone at the hearing that never happened?

Patience. The evidence will eventually be presented. There is no statute of limitations on presenting evidence to exonerate someone who is falsely convicted. As I have often said before, I believe that the evidence is in the hands of the defense, and when they have an air tight case to present to Ellington, they will do so.

 

[AngelontheRiver]

What evidence points to Hobbs besides the one hair?

 

[Cappuccino]

I am not sure that there was a plethora of DNA on the bodies? The children's own DNA would be on them, in them, of course.

IF the hair is Mr. Hobbs' I thought it survived being under water because it was bound up in the ligatures of the child.

With the children submerged, naked in ditch water, there was probably a lot of DNA from the killers that was forever washed away.

Firstly, the Hobbs hair was underneath the ligature, not bound up in it. Secondly, there were a plethora of loose hairs at that crime scene belonging to Stevie, Christopher and Michael. Why didn't the ditch water wash them away? The last round of DNA testing can give you an idea of the proportions we're talking about here - 12 hairs were tested from the crime scene, 8 of them belonged to Christopher Byers, 3 failed to amplify, and one was from an unidentified source.

http://callahan.8k.com/pdf/de_dna_statusreport_7_25_11.pdf

I might just about buy the idea that the water coincidentally washed away the killers DNA and left behind a whole load of the victims, if there was only one defendant, or if there was DNA from one of the victims absent too. But I just do not buy the idea that the water washed away DNA belonging to all three killers and left behind DNA belonging to all three victims. That's stretching coincidence a bit too far, IMO.

 

[Dysthymia]

Firstly, the Hobbs hair was underneath the ligature, not bound up in it. Secondly, there were a plethora of loose hairs at that crime scene belonging to Stevie, Christopher and Michael. Why didn't the ditch water wash them away? The last round of DNA testing can give you an idea of the proportions we're talking about here - 12 hairs were tested from the crime scene, 8 of them belonged to Christopher Byers, 3 failed to amplify, and one was from an unidentified source.

http://callahan.8k.com/pdf/de_dna_statusreport_7_25_11.pdf

I might just about buy the idea that the water coincidentally washed away the killers DNA and left behind a whole load of the victims, if there was only one defendant, or if there was DNA from one of the victims absent too. But I just do not buy the idea that the water washed away DNA belonging to all three killers and left behind DNA belonging to all three victims. That's stretching coincidence a bit too far, IMO.

I think we're saying the same thing in different words. I meant the hair in question was part of the binding up of the child. I didn't mean in the knot but, now that we're discussing it, was that determined? Because underneath could mean anything.

I just don't see all that much DNA evidence at all. A lot of the evidence collected was brushing the victim's own hair for samples, plus cuttings of the hair on their head and bodies.

This case proves that a violent crime can be committed while leaving the crime scene pretty clean. Even if you don't believe the WM3 killed those children, someone(s) did and there is no evidence for them either.

 

[Cappuccino]

I think we're saying the same thing in different words. I meant the hair in question was part of the binding up of the child. I didn't mean in the knot but, now that we're discussing it, was that determined? Because underneath could mean anything.

Now you mention it, I've heard conflicting accounts of where exactly the Hobbs hair was. Supporters usually say it was in the knot, nons usually say it was under the ligature but not bound in the knot. I was giving the non side the benefit of the doubt, but I should really look it up. I'll get back to you on that one.

The hairs tested were not cuttings from the victims head or body hair. They were loose hairs collected from the crime scene.

Even if you don't believe the WM3 killed those children, someone(s) did and there is no evidence for them either.

Hobbs hair is there, the Jacoby hair is there. There are three sets of unidentified DNA on Christopher's sneakers, an unidentified hair in Michael Moore's wallet, an unidentified negroid hair collected from one of the sheets used to transport the bodies, and probably other things I've forgotten about. You can posit the suggestion that all of the above are innocent transfer, crime scene contamination, etc, and you may be right, but you can't prove it. That, matched with the complete lack of any DNA from the three who were supposed to have been there spells reasonable doubt to me - especially in a death penalty case.

 

[Cappuccino]

And so say all of us!! Mr Bojangles is one of the abiding mysteries of this case, and always will be.

ETA: Dysthymia removed her post, which makes this post look completely random and apropos of nothing. Lol.

 

[Dysthymia]

And so say all of us!! Mr Bojangles is one of the abiding mysteries of this case, and always will be.

ETA: Dysthymia removed her post, which makes this post look completely random and apropos of nothing. Lol.

Ooops. I'm sorry. I did move it to My thoughts about this case and I didn't realize anyone would see it so quickly.

This is what it said:

One thing that bothers me about this case is the bloodied, confused man who was in the ladies' room of a restaurant near the crime scene. He sounds highly suspicious but LE didn't check him out that night and I believe by the time LE did so, the blood was washed off the restaurant's walls.

It seems too much of a coincidence for LE not to have investigated. He could have been involved in some way. He could be a witness, an escaped victim, or a killer?

This guy is the reason that so many of us wish the 3 had went through with the evidentiary hearing. He probably wasn't going to be brought up because if the defense had any evidence on him, we'd have heard about it by now, but I had hopes that someone would attempt to answer the questions surrounding him. This guy will probably always be a mystery but who he was and what he was doing that night is something that I'll always be troubled over.

I posted this to Damien's thread and decided it needed to go in the proper thread but there wasn't one that I could find for this man.

 

[Cappuccino]

Thanks, Dysthymia. Thought I was going mad there for a minute, seeing imaginary posts.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

IMO, Mr. Bojangles is most probably either dead (at the hands of the real killer of Stevie, Michael and Christopher) or had nothing to do with the crime and left the area without ever knowing that he was being sought. I, too, would love closure on this. Since the WMPD conveniently lost all the blood and other evidence of his existence, I agree that we will probably never know who (or what) he was.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

And so say all of us!! Mr Bojangles is one of the abiding mysteries of this case, and always will be.
.

I believe they did interview a couple of men of color with casts on their arms. The restaurant employees cleaned up all the evidence left and the police came by but at that point the police were still looking for 'missing' children, not the suspects because the bodies were not found until on the 6th.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I don't remember them interviewing black men with blue Velcro casts on their arms. How many could there have been? Do you have a link?

However, you are right in that at the time of the Bojangles incident, they were looking for "missing" children. OTOH, the police (or rather Bryn Ridge) "lost" the evidence when it was collected the next day (when it did become more relevant). IMO, this is just one more in a long line of examples of the shoddy job that the WMPD did in investigating this case OR it is evidence that the police already had "Damien Echols tunnel vision" and were simply not interested in anything that didn't support their theory. It's supposed to be the other way around - find evidence and then develop a theory. The WMPD did it bassackwards!

In his Pasdar deposition, Gitchell discussed the fact that evidence is sometimes destroyed willfully by the police. When discussing hand-written notes that had not been typed up, he said, "If it was inconsequential, they may destroy them." ( http://callahan.8k.com/hobbs_pasdar/g_gitchell_depo.pdf [see page 28]) IMO that's at best shoddy police work and at worst a cover up. I'd love to know just what evidence in this case was destroyed because the police thought it was "inconsequential."

 

[NCSleuth]

Firstly, the Hobbs hair was underneath the ligature, not bound up in it. Secondly, there were a plethora of loose hairs at that crime scene belonging to Stevie, Christopher and Michael. Why didn't the ditch water wash them away? The last round of DNA testing can give you an idea of the proportions we're talking about here - 12 hairs were tested from the crime scene, 8 of them belonged to Christopher Byers, 3 failed to amplify, and one was from an unidentified source.

http://callahan.8k.com/pdf/de_dna_statusreport_7_25_11.pdf

I might just about buy the idea that the water coincidentally washed away the killers DNA and left behind a whole load of the victims, if there was only one defendant, or if there was DNA from one of the victims absent too. But I just do not buy the idea that the water washed away DNA belonging to all three killers and left behind DNA belonging to all three victims. That's stretching coincidence a bit too far, IMO.

Actually, IMO firstly we need to call it something else. All the supporters conveniently call it the Hobbs hair. Lets look at the possibility it is actually his hair. From what I understand, its a 97% chance it belongs to Hobbs. My math tell me it is a 3% chance it does not.

from 1990 US Census data
Population of West Memphis is 1990 was 28,259. So statistically that hair could match 847 people in West Memphis alone.
Population of Arkansas in 1990 was 2,350,725. So statistically that hair could match 70,521 people in the state of Arkansas.
Population of the USA in 1990 was 248,709,873. So statistically that hair could match 7,461,296 people in the US. That is 7.4 Million people.

The Hobbs hair is completely worthless. To call it the Hobbs Hair is simply an attempt to pass blame.

 

[madeleine]

btw,what happened with these tests?any match?


A DNA report filed today with Craighead County Court Judge David Laser in the West Memphis 3 case reveals that new DNA material found on the shoes of murder victim Chris Byers conclusively excludes Damien Echols, Jason Baldwin and Jessie Misskelley. The human DNA came from two separate male individuals who remain unidentified.

“Bode’s testing revealed that the DNA samples from Nos. 1 and 2 are from the same male source, while the DNA sample from No. 3 is from a different male source. Bode’s further comparative analysis then also conclusively excluded Echols, Baldwin or Misskelley as the source of any of these new DNA samples.”

 

[Cappuccino]

Actually, IMO firstly we need to call it something else. All the supporters conveniently call it the Hobbs hair. Lets look at the possibility it is actually his hair. From what I understand, its a 97% chance it belongs to Hobbs. My math tell me it is a 3% chance it does not.

from 1990 US Census data
Population of West Memphis is 1990 was 28,259. So statistically that hair could match 847 people in West Memphis alone.
Population of Arkansas in 1990 was 2,350,725. So statistically that hair could match 70,521 people in the state of Arkansas.
Population of the USA in 1990 was 248,709,873. So statistically that hair could match 7,461,296 people in the US. That is 7.4 Million people.

The Hobbs hair is completely worthless. To call it the Hobbs Hair is simply an attempt to pass blame.

According to Tomas Fedor, approx. 1.5% of the population could be the source of the hair found under Michael Moore's ligature. DNA, like all circumstantial evidence, needs to be looked at in light of the surrounding circumstances. Terry Hobbs lived in the same house as one of the three children who were murdered, and another, (Christopher Byers), was in the Hobbs home that afternoon watching television with Amanda. Neither of those things apply to 847 people in West Memphis, etc.

That hair is very likely to be from Terry Hobbs, as Mr Hobbs himself admits. Obviously that is not the same thing as saying Terry Hobbs is highly likely to have committed the murder - not when there are two of the victims who could have carried the hair to the crime scene themselves. Therefore, calling it the Hobbs hair is nothing other than short hand for the hair that most likely came from Terry Hobbs.

 

[Cappuccino]

btw,what happened with these tests?any match?


A DNA report filed today with Craighead County Court Judge David Laser in the West Memphis 3 case reveals that new DNA material found on the shoes of murder victim Chris Byers conclusively excludes Damien Echols, Jason Baldwin and Jessie Misskelley. The human DNA came from two separate male individuals who remain unidentified.

“Bode’s testing revealed that the DNA samples from Nos. 1 and 2 are from the same male source, while the DNA sample from No. 3 is from a different male source. Bode’s further comparative analysis then also conclusively excluded Echols, Baldwin or Misskelley as the source of any of these new DNA samples.”

The DNA on Christopher's sneakers remains unidentified as far as I know.